[NSR] Will electric vehicles bring fuel prices down?
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Ossessionato
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Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:02 am quote
Jimding wrote:
Stromrider wrote:
My own car in which I have been driving 4000 miles per month on many occasions (before lock down) will give me up 70-74mpg, but a more regular 68-69mpg. That's cruising on our crowded roads at around 60mph. .
What kind of car is that? And I can only assume you are looking at an instantaneous mileage readout, not calculating for the tank. And perhaps using Imp. gallons.

While it is possible to get that kind of mileage using very light, very small, streamlined cars that in no way meet modern safety specs, even hybrids don't do that well, tank to tank.

How exactly would the government and fuel companies suppress a 'breakthrough' in mileage, especially these days with the internet? Considering that nearly all car manufacturers are strugling to meet CAFE requirements, they'd welcome with open arms a car that could get 70 mpg.

Fact is, unless you can build the engine out of materials that require no cooling system, and run with sufficient compression/expansion ratio at very low revs so the exhaust gas is barely above room temp, the maximum thermodynamic efficiency of the engine is pretty well fixed at around 30%. F1 claims a record of around 50%, but that's illusory, since they are counting the energy recovered by the turbo and regen braking. You can get into compound engines that recover some of the wasted exhaust heat, but then you pay in weight and complexity.

I'm gonna say that I doubt a 65 MPG VW.
Hello Jim,

Yeah my main car is a Citroen. It's a comfortable full 5 seater with 6 spd auto tranny (torque converter). Even big Americans will fit in it ok. It has mostly every conceivable extra fitted and pretty much drives itself. It has a 1.2ltr turbo charged 3 cylinder motor. It goes very much like the average petrol 1.6 to 2.0ltr car. My model goes 0-60mph in 9.1secs. Reasonable for it's size. It produces 110ps with 205nm of torque at 1500rpm. It's direct injection with offset crank for better efficiency, better power, lower cylinder wear. It also has a cat with ppf. It goes better than my Audi 2ltr petrol car. At 70mph it's revving at 2000rpm. redline is at 5500rpm. The engine needs an oil change every 16,500 miles or every year whichever comes first. It uses a fully synthetic 0-20 long life oil. Top speed is around 121mph. She has plenty of power on tap through the rev range especially in sport mode. There's a piccy below. The one in the piccy is not mine but identical to it, even the colour. And yes, I'm talking about Uk gallons and it's the average miles per gallon for a days journey, not the instant readout that I'm quoting. Bear in mind that most of my miles are on motorways where the car is mostly in 5th or 6th gear. Around town my car gives me an average of 44-48mpg. On a 400 mile run to Birmingham from my home on very busy roads of all kinds it returned 68mpg for the whole journey. I calculated that by pencil and paper after brimming the tank. It tallied very well with the cars own computer with just 1/2 mile difference in the figures. Cars over here, even converting to US gallons go further than your average US car. In addition, using my cruise control gives as much as 6-8mpg more over using the right foot. I guess it removes the slight but constant movements on the throttle that we all make as we drive. The cars own electronics controls throttle movement so much more efficiently, wasting less fuel.

Over here there are many many VAG group cars that will achieve over 65mpg. My Skoda Fabia easily managed 74-75mpg with a best of 79mpg. They even did an uprated diesel version of my Skoda that did 94mpg. It was able to achieve that to if you didn't drive faster than 55mph. It's a late Golf size car but slightly longer. It was a solidly built estate car.

Here's another piccy of my previous Skoda estate car.

Jim, surely you get some cars like this over there don't you?

PS. true story. While I was shopping with my wife I parked my Skoda Estate car in the car park. I was immediately approached by two bewildered American tourists, who were actually driving an identical Skoda Estate rental car. That's why they approached me. They asked me if I thought something was wrong with their car. "it was showing 71mpg on the computer screen"! "That's wrong" they said and "is it going to harm the engine to continue driving it"? I said "is that all it's doing. It should be getting much nearer to 80mpg"! It was the upgraded engined version that was capable of 94mpg. They were stunned and asked why they didn't get cars like that over in the States. Given that the performance of these cars is very very good, I wondered that myself.

C3.jpg
Citroen C3

Skoda Estate.jpg
Skoda Estate...uses largely VW Golf underpinnings and extended VW Polo floor pan but is better quality than VW overall



Last edited by Stromrider on Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:43 am; edited 13 times in total
Ossessionato
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Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:17 am quote
Re: All
Jimding wrote:
If Honda or Toyota put a car in a showroom that had 50 HP, but got 70 MPG, they'd sell dozens.
https://motoreu.com/fiat-panda-0.9-8v-twinair-natural-power-mpg-fuel-consumption-technical-specifications-15212 ( 900 cc methane ).

Fuel Consumption
Urban 4,3 lt/100km
66 MPG (UK) - 55 MPG (US)
Extra Urban 2,8 lt/100km
101 MPG (UK) - 84 MPG (US)
Combined 3,4 lt/100km
83 MPG (UK) - 69 MPG (US)

I have a petrol Fiat 500 X 1.6 but modified to run on LPG too: https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/fiat/500x-2015/16-e-torq
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Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:41 am quote
Love the Fiats Attila. I've had many of them, but larger models than those you list. Always did lots of miles in them and never had any issues. Not the best build quality on the inside ie: seats showed quite a bit of wear after 6 or 7 years (but many cars and vans do). Used a couple of them in one of our businesses (one was a van) and put over 150,000 miles each on them. If I remember correctly we only ever had one issue, and that was front wheel bearings on one side getting noisy. I replaced them and all was well.

That was in stark contrast to the Fords we had which always gave trouble and needed lots of things replacing on a regular basis, including: gearboxes, clutches, engines, and the whole side of one of our Transit vans, purchased new and yet it went wildly rusty in just 4 years! Ford replaced the whole side of the van under warranty. We discovered that a dealer was putting in the wrong oil in one of our diesels. He was incorrectly using car oil because it was cheaper. But it was wrong grade, wrong spec and it knocked out the camshaft whiles I was doing 70mph. The camshaft was thrown through the side of the block (it was mounted low down in the cylinder block) and the whole engine destroyed itself. Tests on the oil revealed the dealers errr, should we say errors, and the motor was replaced under warranty.
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Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:25 am quote
Stromrider wrote:
Love the Fiats Attila. I've had many of them, but larger models than those you list. Always did lots of miles in them and never had any issues. Not the best build quality on the inside ie: seats showed quite a bit of wear after 6 or 7 years (but many cars and vans do). Used a couple of them in one of our businesses (one was a van) and put over 150,000 miles each on them. If I remember correctly we only ever had one issue, and that was front wheel bearings on one side getting noisy. I replaced them and all was well.

That was in stark contrast to the Fords we had which always gave trouble and needed lots of things replacing on a regular basis, including: gearboxes, clutches, engines, and the whole side of one of our Transit vans, purchased new and yet it went wildly rusty in just 4 years! Ford replaced the whole side of the van under warranty. We discovered that a dealer was putting in the wrong oil in one of our diesels. He was incorrectly using car oil because it was cheaper. But it was wrong grade, wrong spec and it knocked out the camshaft whiles I was doing 70mph. The camshaft was thrown through the side of the block (it was mounted low down in the cylinder block) and the whole engine destroyed itself. Tests on the oil revealed the dealers errr, should we say errors, and the motor was replaced under warranty.
No ... I do an annual service and my mileage is about 12,000 km per year, another 2000 km by scooter.
The 1600 cc engine that i have now is built in Brazil for the South American market, it is a 16-valve single shaft driven by a large toothed chain, has 110 hp with indirect injection but very reliable and uses 0 W 30 oil. Traveled 70,000 km using LPG as the main fuel (300 km with 18 €).
You are right on the interiors, unfortunately this is also the case on my car ... After the epidemic is over, i will replace them with used car crashed saddle leather, more durable.
Sorry but I wanted to say that in Italy LPG and methane vehicles are considered ecological and in some regions they are exempt from paying the road tax and in any case when traffic in cities is blocked due to excessive pollution (detected by special control units) electric vehicles, hybrid and gas can run equally.
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Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:50 am quote
Rusty J wrote:
jimc wrote:
Eventually hydrogen will become the majority vehicle fuel for long distance and/or heavy vehicles - refuelling will only take slightly longer than filling with gasoline does now. Batteries are unlikely in the foreseeable future to get light (or small) enough to make fully electric long-distance trucks viable. Same for aircraft.
Hydrogen is best viewed as an energy storage medium rather than a fuel. It takes more energy to make it than is released by burning it or running it through fuel cells.

95% of the hydrogen produced today comes from petrochemicals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production
In fact "Green Hydrogen" manufactured from using green energy (solar and wind) is already set to take over as the main energy source used to produce it. As jimc says, Hydrogen is probably the best way to power large aircraft for the foreseeable future. Trucks, that's different. The new Graphene batteries which are now very much on the horizon and will be rolling out in just 3 years in some forms will have 40-50% more capacity and will be 25-30% smaller and lighter than li-on batteries, and will be a game changer. Trucks and smaller aircraft will use them without doubt. Where hydrogen comes in is where you need really heavy hauling power over big distances ie: jet engined aircraft, very heavy trucks.

The future for normal cars and bikes/scooters is definitely electric and probably with graphene batteries. It's the performance, way better than ICE engines and yet much less trouble to look after.

Price parity in the UK for electric cars meeting the same price as ICE cars is predicted to be 2023 now. Already many electric cars have come down in price. The average Li-on battery pack lasts anywhere between 12-18 years. And the price of those has dropped by over 50% in the last 8 years. and is set to drop by 50% in the next 5 years. There are plenty of Nissan Leaf cars going around with 12 year old battery packs with over 100,000 miles on the clock in the UK. Battery life is not really a problem, and the best bit is, battery life is getting better.
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Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:59 am quote
Rambling
Gas pumps will become a liability once electric becomes ubiquitous. Tesla can currently fill your battery 50% in 20 minutes which is a wee, a coffee and an overpriced sandwich so charging stations will need to provide amenities for you to loiter around. Or are you going to sit in your car for the charging time? I think human sized mouse wheels connected to generators would be a great way to pass the time.

Rapid charging prices are comparable to petrol at the moment, at some point someone upstairs will notice they aren't getting as much fuel tax anymore so electric prices may actually end up more than gas. Ugh.
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Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:52 am quote
Yeah you are right znomit. My bro in laws E-Niro charges very quickly. Plug it into a fast charger by the roadside or at a Burger King and it puts 130-150 miles in the tank in just 15mins. It just depends on the ambient temperature as to whether it's 120 or 150 or somewhere in between. Many charging stations over here are free, and just about all big hotel chains offer free charging. My bro in law ran 740 miles in his E-Niro for just £6. That was the cost to charge it at home before he went on the journey. Another single charge was totally free and he topped up for 10mins by the roadside paying just £2. Difficult to beat that!

In Europe gas prices will rise exponentially in the next few years to drive people into electric vehicles. With the choice and price of EV's becoming much better, cheaper etc and charging points going in by the thousand each month, there won't be much excuse to not buy an EV next trade in.
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Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:46 am quote
Re: Rambling
znomit wrote:
Gas pumps will become a liability once electric becomes ubiquitous. Tesla can currently fill your battery 50% in 20 minutes which is a wee, a coffee and an overpriced sandwich so charging stations will need to provide amenities for you to loiter around. Or are you going to sit in your car for the charging time? I think human sized mouse wheels connected to generators would be a great way to pass the time.

Rapid charging prices are comparable to petrol at the moment, at some point someone upstairs will notice they aren't getting as much fuel tax anymore so electric prices may actually end up more than gas. Ugh.
That's right, did you put your finger in the sore ... or the rabbit in the hole?


It makes me laugh at the thought that in Italy, outside many large cities, the charging columns can last intact for more than a week ...
They will damage them or they will steal them to resell them as old iron, here at night they also steal the signs with road signs...Not always but what I want to say is that there must be an education in the use of road structures in which the refueling points are included, I don't know from you but here the problem of night gangs that steal and vandalize is taking place.
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Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:36 am quote
Unknown
The bigger issue is, where is the electricity going to come from to service all those electric cars? Read an article from Great Britain that projected they would need 3 times the present generating capacity to replace fossil fuels in autos. I suspect they underestimated. That is a whole bunch of windmills and solar cells.

Of course, they are also talking about building new nuclear power plants.

Very possible that, in 20 or 30 years, the only people buying petrol will be the hobbyists, taking their noisy, smelly collector cars and bikes out for Sunday afternoon rides. After getting suitable clearance from the central traffic authority and mounting transponders.
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Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:44 am quote
Attila wrote:
With modern LPG fuel systems, the engines run very well, the power loss is about 4% and pollute much less.
Gotta keep the revs up.
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Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:25 am quote
Don't pay too much attention to scare stories about electricity supply not being able to keep up with demand for future EVs. The fossil fuel lobby may want you to think that and the loons at the daily Mail, but the switch to EVs is gradual and with a smarter grid cars can charge when demand is low- and feed back into the grid if demand elsewhere is high (for an appropriate £consideration).

UK generally has plenty of generation capacity overall- we've actually become rather efficient with our appliances- our problem is demand is spiky meaning headroom is tight on cold dark winter days. EVs charge regimes can help smooth these peaks and troughs in demand- and are great partners for renewable electricity generation, which by its nature is intermittent, even if predictable over longer timescales.
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Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:41 am quote
Re: Unknown
Jimding wrote:
The bigger issue is, where is the electricity going to come from to service all those electric cars? Read an article from Great Britain that projected they would need 3 times the present generating capacity to replace fossil fuels in autos. I suspect they underestimated. That is a whole bunch of windmills and solar cells.

Of course, they are also talking about building new nuclear power plants.

Very possible that, in 20 or 30 years, the only people buying petrol will be the hobbyists, taking their noisy, smelly collector cars and bikes out for Sunday afternoon rides. After getting suitable clearance from the central traffic authority and mounting transponders.
In the Uk green energy is already able to support our entire country for limited periods without the use of any fossil fuels. We did it as an experiment last year in April for a full 24hrs to test the grid and our green energy production. In just another 8 years 88% or slightly more will come entirely from solar and wind with the rest coming from nuclear. So carbon generated by charging EV's will be as close to zero as possible. We are also going to be using the new high tech solar panels that produce electricity at night. They won't produce huge amounts but it will take care of some and maybe eventually near all of our night electricity needs. Uk is leading the world in green energy. We are also building 2 new nuclear plants. Feeding the thousands of new commercial charging points that are currently being installed across the country won't be a problem. So far green energy has created 100,000 new jobs in the UK.

I think you are right about the hobbiest Jim. But they will be paying a hefty price for their petrol or gas as you guys say. It will be harder and harder to find I suspect. Already many of our garage chains are planning huge number of charging outlets across the country and installing them to meet demand. Electric cars this year are for the first time outselling even the most popular models over here some months.
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Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:37 pm quote
Thing is
Look up how much petrol is presently being burned in cars. Convert that to the energy equivalent of electricity. Cut it in half to recognize the better efficiency of e-cars. That is how much more electricity you are going to need if we are to replace petrol cars with electric ones. You can get a bit of that by charging at off-peak hours. But people are going to need to charge during the day too.

Could be much worse if they go through with the 'flying car' plans, as such vehicles may use as much as ten times the energy of equivalent ground transport.

Which is what makes the plans for places like California so foolish. Mandate electric cars, but don't plan for the generation capability needed to run them. Even when you are already falling short on power generation. Probably not going to be able to charge your car during rolling brownouts.

Certainly home solar installations can take some load off the grid. But they are going to have to find the power someplace.
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Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:32 pm quote
Re: Curious
Stromrider wrote:
PS. true story. While I was shopping with my wife I parked my Skoda Estate car in the car park. I was immediately approached by two bewildered American tourists, who were actually driving an identical Skoda Estate rental car. That's why they approached me. They asked me if I thought something was wrong with their car. "it was showing 71mpg on the computer screen"! "That's wrong" they said and "is it going to harm the engine to continue driving it"? I said "is that all it's doing. It should be getting much nearer to 80mpg"! It was the upgraded engined version that was capable of 94mpg. They were stunned and asked why they didn't get cars like that over in the States. Given that the performance of these cars is very very good, I wondered that myself.
You were approached by Americans who cared if they blew up a rental car? Were they shocked because the beer was so cold and the vegetables undercooked? Most of us just want to know how to get on the freeway from the M1.

There are a lot of reasons we don't have tiny cars with motorcycle engines in the US. They seem to appear every time gas gets up around three dollars a gallon, then promptly vanish when it goes down to $2.79. Much of our population doesn't fit in them (You only see the ones that fit in airplane seats). But the main reason, and what is going to make it so much harder for the US to embrace electric cars than a place like the UK, is the average length of our commutes and how many of us live in the Sunbelt. Running the AC and trying to go 80 miles an hour (130 kmh) in 110 (44c.) degrees kills them. Then there's sitting in traffic for hours. How much will the battery drain to run the AC in Phoenix rush hour traffic in the middle of Summer?
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Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:12 am quote
waspmike wrote:
Attila wrote:
With modern LPG fuel systems, the engines run very well, the power loss is about 4% and pollute much less.
Gotta keep the revs up.
No, with electronic engine management everything is manageable.
Without the computer science applied to modern ECUs this would not have been possible.

Then there is complaining if pollution kills faster and climate change destroys everything ...
I say nothing more because the speech may not be appreciated and for some even political ... I'm sorry.

Last edited by Attila on Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:22 am quote
Hi Motovista, yes some of your argument might make some sense in the States but most of it doesn't because testing has shown most arguments against EV's are proving to be old hat and are disappearing fast simply because the cars are now so good. At least, the ones here is europe are. In the States I accept the fact you don't have good power generation compared to us lot here in europe so that's something you guys will need to address, but you will. Even arguments about the Li-on batteries not being easy to recycle are being dealt with and we have new companies springing up with specialist technology who will turn them back into brand new Li-on batteries using green energy to do so.

We too have many many folks who have long commutes. It's mostly those folks who benefit most from using electric cars. And they are the ones who are using them the most over here and in europe. The running costs are tiny compared to any ice car. and purchase price parity with ice cars is now very close and is predicted to be the same in just two years, and then it's expected EV's will be cheaper than ice cars. Probably not by much but they will be less money to buy.

Amazon over here are buying 100,000 electric vans. All the major companies are doing the same. The range and charge times are good. My bro in laws E-niro charges up fully from near flat in just 54mins but it can be 48mins. On cold days it might take 62mins. A 15 min charge puts around 120-150 miles in the tank dependant upon temperature of the batteries. You get the most charge in the fastest time in the first 30mins of charging. His charged car goes on average, based upon the last 6 months driving, 320 miles per charge at mixed real world speeds including motorway driving at 70mph. Using the AC doesn't seem to make a big difference to the charge in the battery over here. But obviously it does have some effect.

The other great thing about EV's is that the engine only has one real moving part, and so they have a very very very long life with unrivalled reliability. So, they hold their value. A Kia E-Niro with 30,000 miles on the clock, one year old will sell for pretty much the same amount of money as you paid for it new over here. When we checked a few months ago that was the state of play. My bro in law was pondering as to whether to buy new or used but the high price of the used ones made it sensible to buy new as it added very little to the cost.

Just so you know, we don't have cars over here with motorbike engines in them...lol. Really big Americans will fit in my car no problem...lol. I have really big Americans as family over there and they fit my car fine when they visit. The American couple my wife and I met in the car park were lovely folks from Ohio, quite elderly which is probably why they were concerned. Old fashioned values if you see what I mean.
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Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:54 am quote
Stromrider wrote:
The other great thing about EV's is that the engine only has one real moving part, and so they have a very very very long life with unrivalled reliability.
There's a crazy German with 1,200,000km on his Tesla.


https://twitter.com/gem8mingen/status/1322849174048690177
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Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:42 am quote
Wow! That's great. Not sure what the E-Niro engines will do regarding miles, but it will far outlive just about any ice engine.

And we've just heard on the news today that new ice engines are banned from 2030 here in the UK. Some hybrid engined cars will be allowed to be sold until 2035. Not sure what is happening about MC's. There was some talk about them being allowed to be sold with ice engines until 2035 but haven't looked into that just at the moment.

Edit: have had a read and it looks as if for the time being MC's may be exempt from the ban for the time being. This is due to the fact that motorcycle ev's are at a much earlier stage of development. Although there are some good ev motorcycles, generally they are not widespread and they are deemed less practical. That will change quite soon it is believed.

https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/petrol-ban-motorbikes/
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Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:16 am quote
Thing is
Almost certainly e-cars and bikes will naturally enter the market, as they become competitive with IC vehicles. So these 'mandates' are mostly window dressing, virtue signalling. Clearly, if in 2029, GB can't find enough power to charge existing cars, they aren't going to mandate electric-only sales the next year.

My wife and I are thinking about replacing our 15-year-old Honda. An e-car won't yet do what we need at a price we can afford. So we're thinking about leasing a hybrid for 5 years or so, then seeing what the market has then. We usually rent a larger car for road trips anyway, so limited range isn't really an issue.

May even have autonomous cars in 5 years, which would be ideal, as we grow older. Maybe won't even need a car then.

I'll probably be buying gasoline ten years down the road in 5-gallon cans. I'd expect to pay betwen $5 and $10 a gallon, to cover the carbon tax and discourage excessive usage. Similar to avgas (without the lead) it will be highly refined and extremely shelf-stable. So I'll still be doddering around on my scooters. Maybe even fire up my Lawnboy mower. If I can find 2-stroke oil.
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Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:04 pm quote
One step that could be taken immediately (especially in California!) would be to ban sales of ICE garden equipment, and ban the use of 2T garden equipment immediately. That'd help with noise pollution as well.

2T leaf-blowers are one of my pet hates.
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Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:39 pm quote
Personally I don't think Americans will buy all Electric cars until they have to, or until gas is too expensive for the masses.
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Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:49 pm quote
jerryd wrote:
and then. wait for it. world record holder 14,573 mpg
https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/most-fuel-efficient-vehicle

so yes. maaaaybe gas mileage is politically controlled?
Because if they sold this thing, everyone would snatch one up? Looks perfect for a trip to Costco or four hours on the Interstate from Modesto to San Jose and back every day. If you build this, they won't come.
I'm still trying to figure out which end's the front.

Duke Electric Vehicles, a student team from Duke University, originally built their vehicle, named Maxwell, for the Shell Eco Marathon.
... the record attempt vehicle used pure hydrogen....

And I get why the UK is embracing EVs. They've had electric milk floats since at least the late 40s, so it's not quite the switch there that it is in the US.

1855053.jpg

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Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:00 pm quote
I just thought the numbers were mind bending. certainly not practical. prolly cost 500k to build that thing. the f1 technology of gas mileage.
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Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:06 pm quote
But the press covered up the fact that the entire route was downhill.
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Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:37 pm quote
Motovista wrote:
But the press covered up the fact that the entire route was downhill.
That's industry standard

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54161343

Manufacturer Nikola has admitted a promotional video on YouTube shows its hydrogen-powered lorry rolling downhill rather than moving under its own power.
...
But the company has now admitted although the lorry's gearbox, batteries and other components were functional, it did not have a working hydrogen fuel cell.
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Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:01 pm quote
Syd wrote:
Personally I don't think Americans will buy all Electric cars until they have to, or until gas is too expensive for the masses.
We will buy them when the economics make sense. Americans will buy electric vehicles when they are priced comparably to gasoline cars (in terms of both retail price and the price to fuel/service them), are gigantically-sized, and good for long-hauls in 100+ degree heat with the A/C cranking at max while running every family member's iPad. We will buy them in droves when that happens. I'll be the first in line. We aren't there, yet... But maybe someday. And we aren't going to buy used electric cars that don't depreciate.
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Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:49 am quote
These days the main problem with electric cars is nothing to do with the cars themselves. It's simply that people have no idea what they are really like and so simply pick up on all the old prejudice of the past that is flung about repeatedly, and the mostly untrue stories that you hear from other ignorant people. They also don't realise how quickly EV technology has progressed in the last 3-5 years. There is also considerable anti-electric propaganda going on, mostly in the States. But mostly these folks have never driven one, don't know how massively cheaper they are to run (usually fully offsetting the extra cost of buying EV), how good they are to drive, and how good the performance and reliability is! Better resale and stuff like that is important but not likely to sell the car to everyone, probably. They don't realise that already they can be cheaper overall than buying an ice engined car and a lot less hassle. Service costs on EV's average just 25-30% of the cost of an ice engined car.

My bro in law has consistently been "anti-electric" for years and has made many many untrue statements, disparaging remarks and arguments about them over the years. Simply repeating much of the stuff we see on here which these days is usually untrue. In fact he convinced himself EV's were the devil incarnate. His car previous to the E-Niro was a Mercedes 3.0ltr C43. 347hp, 0-62 in 4.7seconds. It managed 28mpg most of the time on the sort of running around he did in it. It was a totally unsuitable car for his needs. It went wrong on numerous occasions and spent weeks and weeks in the garage being fixed. It would travel about 390 miles between fill ups and cost a small fortune over here to do so.

So, it came as quite a surprise when a friend bought a Hyundai Kona electric. He immediately came out with all the usual lies about EV's when they were chatting. These lies covered everything from poor range, to very few charging points, expensive to service, poor performance etc etc. So his friend gave him a ride in it, first showing him over the car and then belting it down the road. Bro in law came back jibbering about how good it actually was. In fact he was in a stunned state to say the least! Reality had struck home. Bro started doing some research. The Kona will manage 400 miles or more in urban use and a bit less in normal use. Using the AC doesn't affect battery charge too much. Sitting in traffic with the AC running hardly affects the charge as you can zone off the individual parts of the car to cool just the driver or front seats, or rear. Sitting in traffic means no power is being wasted by the engine, the biggest draw on the batteries. Performance is about the same as the E-niro because the engines are the same 201hp unit and batteries are the same. He then contacted me to help him search out an EV. I could barely believe he was going to get one. After driving several EV's he settled on the E-Niro. It's easily better than the Mercedes in so many ways and it's 7.2secs to 0-60 is admirable. Ride is great and it's loaded with every conceivable extra. 7 year warranty on the car with an even longer warranty on the batteries.

And it's the same for most folks who drive them for the first time. It's simply amazement at how well they go, and how cheap they are to run. My bro in law is now a complete convert to EV's. He admits he was totally wrong about them. He bought it though not because it is an EV, but because it's a great car in it's own right, with huge performance. Being electric it produces full torque from zero revs. You don't have to wait for the engine revs to build like you do with an ice engine. It's actually as fast as his 350hp Mercedes up to 50mph. It's huge fun to drive and pretty much unbreakable. And as an aside, the E-Niro has just been voted the number one EV car in 'Urup"!

I'm sure the States will catch up with europe in just a few years with electric generation and green energy. A president who actually believes in coal as a way forward will likely be gone. Americans are not daft. The prejudices that are currently in vogue will vanish pretty quickly when more of you actually drive them to see what they are like in the real world. Electric cars are the only practical sustainable personal transport for the future if we all want to carry on breathing and eating. My bro in law particularly likes not having to visit a garage to get fuel anymore. And when he does longs trips a quick 20 minute coffee break after 200 miles will fully charge him and his car (we have charging points appearing almost everywhere with thousands of stations going in across the country each month). Although he has found the range to be about 280+miles at 65 to 75mph where it's possible to drive at those speeds. And lets face it. Few of us drive more than 200 miles before needing a pee and coffee!
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Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:54 pm quote
We're miles ahead of Europe, and leagues ahead of the UK, on new and renewable technology. The EPA just approved placing small on demand generators that burn clean coal in places where the grid can't support the new demand for electricity. They will power the latest technology super quick charge stations that will give the average electric car 90 miles of range in only two and a half hours. These new generators are so efficient, and they are direct dc current, that every ton of coal burned will add about 100 miles of range to the average electric car today, and that's only going to get better as technology improves and they figure out how to get even more energy out of clean coal. They are hoping to have eight hundred clean coal mini generators in all the major cities within seven weeks.
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Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:52 pm quote
'Clean coal' is an oxymoron, for sure.
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Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:54 am quote
Pretty much all around the world 'clean coal' doesn't exist. It is hugely inefficient and produces huge amounts of CO2 just to get it out the ground. It's been rejected by virtually all governments and scientists because the technology in practice doesn't work well for very long and in the end, you still have to store the carbon in special depositories which takes up huge amounts of space. They know this because it's been tried and tried for years over here using differing tech to do it. It's also expensive technology and the source the energy is coming from is finite, even if you have a lot of it. Better not to generate the carbon in the first place and get greener energy from other renewables which are as close to infinite as we will get. The latest solar panels produce more energy per sq mtr, last years longer than previously, have less toxicity, and are half the cost of previous versions. and it's a lot cheaper than trying to make coal cleaner.

If your clean coal generators only give 90 miles of range to an average electric car in 2.5hrs then you are in real trouble. You can plug an E-Niro or Nissan leaf or any other car into our fast chargers anywhere around the country now, and get 120-150 miles in 15 mins. In fact most good EV's fully charge in less than an hour over here. Bro in laws E-Niro take around 54mins for 300 miles of range. It may take a little longer over there as your power grid works on different voltages. Charging at home takes a bit longer but special chargers boost the charge rate to an acceptable level and reduces cost for night time charging. Many folks use the public fast chargers, many of which are free to use. In Scotland all EV's can charge totally free of charge. And they have wiskey! Lol

Rolls Royce are about to install 60 mini nuclear power stations across the UK. These are cheap, very clean and above all very safe, producing no nuclear waste. These will supplement our other clean energy supplies when needed as they can be switched off and on at will. So we are not putting all our eggs in one basket.

I read one of your newspapers the other day and watched a Fox news article about how your government was going flat out on getting more coal, employing more miners etc etc. Seems you've had some trouble with that and you now have fewer miners working fewer mines than when they came into office. Is coal really going to work? Even Australia has seen the writing on the wall for the demise of coal. It's the biggest producer in the world but also acknowledges it's the dirtiest fuel you can buy. And China one of the biggest customers for coal is and has already turned to renewables and is far ahead of most of the rest of the world in it's technology and production of renewables, reducing considerably it's CO2 output.

About that America leading the world thing. I don't think you guys realise how much the rest of the world has moved on.

Last edited by Stromrider on Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:07 am; edited 2 times in total
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Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:21 am quote
Last I read
Stromrider wrote:
Rolls Royce are about to install 60 mini nuclear power stations across the UK. These are cheap, very clean and above all very safe, producing very little nuclear waste.

I'd be curious to think why you believe they will be safer, or produce less nuclear waste. The main selling point is that they are modular, factory produced, and so allegedly will be cheaper to build. But nothing related to nuclear is actually cheap. Still all the problems with used fuel bundles, storage, security against theft and terrorism, etc. And mismanagement, of course, leading to release of radioactivity. Having 60 plants widely dispersed is likely to be a security nightmare.

Mostly a solution to the need for a lot more power, quickly. Frankly, I think that cure is worse than the disease of IC cars.
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Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:02 am quote
Liked "I don't think you guys realise how much the rest of the world has moved on"
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Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:54 am quote
the following applies to usa only.

I would love to own an electric car. buying new is painfully economically not worth it. they are almost double the cost of a petrol equivalent. so fuel savings doesnt take place for first ten years. the savings for first ten years is offset by the entry cost.

I dont buy new anyway. I have looked at nissan leaf. that car is 30,000 new. I found used ones four years old. 10000-12000. there isnt a petrol equivalent that looses value that fast.

bmw i3. 55000 new. three years old 30000 six years 18000

the tesla cars are the hot ticket here. the resale values are very high. problem for me is tesla does not sell parts. you cant get parts for them if you want to fix car yourself. you have to have them service car. or buy used parts. they do get in fender benders. cost to repair is way up compared to normal petrol car.

united states has been passing laws making it illegal to work on your own car. tesla just took the next step in that horrible loss of my first amendment right to fix my own car.

I think gas prices will rise accordingly as more electrics enter the roads. the gas cost wont increase, just the tax on it incorporated inside the sale price.

just my casual thoughts. if you disagree or have different views thats allowed.

if anyone really wants to know the politics of electrics in the usa I highly recommend the movie "who killed the electric car" very informative video and massively entertaining.
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Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:07 pm quote
VesperGeezer wrote:
'Clean coal' is an oxymoron, for sure.


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Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:59 am quote
Maybe
Maybe the future is closer than we think:

https://techxplore.com/news/2020-11-gm-batteries-electric-car-range.html

Was idly comparing the new-car prices of VW's new e-car and their IC cars. The e-car was far, far more expensive for a smaller car with less range. While total cost of ownership may be comparable, considering 'fuel' costs and maintenance, a lotta folks can't get past the high initial cost. And the charging network is still pretty skimpy in this part of the country.

If the GM technology allows for price parity and acceptable range, then it becomes a no-brainer. Almost certain to happen, sooner or later. Although I'll probaby hold out until they have AWD versions, given our snowy winters.
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Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:22 am quote
Re: Last I read
Jimding wrote:
Stromrider wrote:
Rolls Royce are about to install 60 mini nuclear power stations across the UK. These are cheap, very clean and above all very safe, producing very little nuclear waste.

I'd be curious to think why you believe they will be safer, or produce less nuclear waste. The main selling point is that they are modular, factory produced, and so allegedly will be cheaper to build. But nothing related to nuclear is actually cheap. Still all the problems with used fuel bundles, storage, security against theft and terrorism, etc. And mismanagement, of course, leading to release of radioactivity. Having 60 plants widely dispersed is likely to be a security nightmare.

Mostly a solution to the need for a lot more power, quickly. Frankly, I think that cure is worse than the disease of IC cars.
Hello Jim, nice to talk with you again. You make some very valid points. After all, we all know about Chernobyl, Long Island and Fukishima. Yet, even those very clear disasters didn't cause the widespread mortality that was predicted at the time. From those disasters we have jumped forwards with our knowledge of what radiation does or more precisely doesn't do, to the human body.

You know, a good few years ago I'd have agreed with you and would have had those same concerns that you list. In the main that was because I trusted the press and media enough to keep me informed with facts. However, it turns out those "facts" were heavily uninformed because we still didn't know enough about nuclear, and the "facts" were even deliberately distorted against nuclear in some quarters, often by environmentalists. So it's now quite interesting that an increasing number of environmentalists who have become properly informed are embracing a new nuclear age. So I actually started to look past the constant plethora of misinformation and uninformed reporting fed almost daily to us by those sources. Like you, I'm an engineer and we have the need for facts don't we. Instead, I started to look at the construction of these plants, the environmental impact and economic facts of nuclear and the number of deaths caused by nuclear power generation compared to green energy of all kinds. Bit of an eye opener to say the least.

The link below you may find interesting. This guy explains just some of it better than me. Watch it right through...it's a TEDx talk about 17 mins long. There are many such scientists who will explain facts for and against nuclear and the facts about green energy for and against. The one common theme is, that it's best to have both nuclear (which is actually a very green energy overall and cost effective even allowing for decommisioning), and other green energy sources. but nuclear is the one that is going to save the planet not green energy on it's own.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-yALPEpV4w

I have in the last few years been on two nuclear plant tours. Indeed I grew up in the shadow of a nuclear plant here is Essex county. Those tours in themselves were quite revealing and informative even allowing for the BS that inevitably shows it head. The newer generation of reactors are incredibly efficient compared to older type nuclear ones, particularly the old Magnox reactors. Modern reactors burn less fuel for the same power output. The turbines and actual electrical generators are much more efficient so less waste overall is produced, in fact almost none (see edit below). Safety systems are now massively improved compared to older generation stations. If all humans suddenly disappeared the stations would self regulate and go into a state of hibernation for years and years very safely until the reactors just simply ceased to react through lack of fuel. Day to day mistakes that in the past could lead to a big problem are no longer a concern due to those safety systems, which are unparalleled anywhere else in modern life. That's not to say accidents can't happen but the chances are so minimal it's almost incalculable. Indeed there are safety systems for the safety systems and indeed these are in triplicate on all the critical systems. Even then there are still other safety systems that kick in if all that fails.

And if even all that fails Homer Simpsons manual on what to do in a nuclear station meltdown crisis is on hand, so thankfully, we can all breath easy!lol...

EDIT: Forgot to say the most important part about using nuclear energy. The latest nuclear reactors don't produce any waste at all! It recycles spent fuel. There is no nuclear waste. The other important thing is that it's impossible for them to have a "meltdown". Just been watching a BBC world news program about this very thing today.

Last edited by Stromrider on Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:10 am; edited 6 times in total
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Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:36 am quote
Re: Maybe
Jimding wrote:
Maybe the future is closer than we think:

https://techxplore.com/news/2020-11-gm-batteries-electric-car-range.html

Was idly comparing the new-car prices of VW's new e-car and their IC cars. The e-car was far, far more expensive for a smaller car with less range. While total cost of ownership may be comparable, considering 'fuel' costs and maintenance, a lotta folks can't get past the high initial cost. And the charging network is still pretty skimpy in this part of the country.

If the GM technology allows for price parity and acceptable range, then it becomes a no-brainer. Almost certain to happen, sooner or later. Although I'll probaby hold out until they have AWD versions, given our snowy winters.
That's more like it Jim. Don't forget that most EV's will have XFC starting to come out next year. That stands for Extra Fast Charging. It applies to existing Li-on technology. It's a specially regulated charge that allows the batteries to charge at twice the rate without damaging the batteries. So my bro in laws E-Niro could if fitted with the tech charge fully up in 30 mins from near flat which will give him about 380-400 miles in town or 285 miles on the motorway.

But the big thing over here is going to be graphene batteries which are smaller, lighter and hold much more charge than Li-on (about 40% more charge). The big plus is that they charge fully up in 2 to 8 minutes depending on what charger you use and how big the batteries are. They will also bring the price of EV's down. Not sure just how long they will take to get into EV's but it's predicted to be 2-3 years. It will mean EV's can have an easy 450-500 mile range with easy 5min recharging.

Anyhoo, in answer to the OP's question. No doubt about it, fuel prices (gas) is going to get increasingly more expensive as more of us switch to electric vehicles.
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Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:48 am quote
Nuclear fission energy is an awkward and heavy legacy to be left to descendants, think about it ...
In Italy there was a referendum and it was decided to abandon this source of energy, certainly if it were a fusion process (like ITER) it would be different, really less waste and safer.
I never understood why power stations were never built with the Rubbiatron system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_amplifier
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Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:13 am quote
I wish the people could see further than the end of their noses regarding the perceived cost of EVs. In the UK, and other European countries, the price differential between EVs and ICE isn't that far apart. This is due partly to government policy, and the idea that the polluter should pay, and cleaner technology be incentivised.

If EVs were too expensive for me to buy new, I'd look to buy second-hand. And even if I still couldn't afford them, I would be glad if people in my hometown bought them, as we'd all benefit from the cleaner air. The environmental improvement doesn't factor into more self-centered views about the cost of ownership, and it should.
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Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:59 am quote
Re: Maybe
Stromrider wrote:
That's more like it Jim. Don't forget that most EV's will have XFC starting to come out next year. That stands for Extra Fast Charging. It applies to existing Li-on technology. It's a specially regulated charge that allows the batteries to charge at twice the rate without damaging the batteries. So my bro in laws E-Niro could if fitted with the tech charge fully up in 30 mins from near flat which will give him about 380-400 miles in town or 285 miles on the motorway.

But the big thing over here is going to be graphene batteries which are smaller, lighter and hold much more charge than Li-on (about 40% more charge). The big plus is that they charge fully up in 2 to 8 minutes depending on what charger you use and how big the batteries are. They will also bring the price of EV's down. Not sure just how long they will take to get into EV's but it's predicted to be 2-3 years. It will mean EV's can have an easy 450-500 mile range with easy 5min recharging.

Anyhoo, in answer to the OP's question. No doubt about it, fuel prices (gas) is going to get increasingly more expensive as more of us switch to electric vehicles.
The XFC thing sounds interesting. When we move in 3-5 years out of the city we will need to buy a car and I'm sure it will be electric. I'd don't see us doing too many long road trips so current range is good. For motorbikes I just wish the look of the electric ones could be more stylish. They all seem to be really blocky for some reason and just "off" to me. Might be as we see more of them the styling will get better.

Regardless we are headed in the direction of electric so get used to it I guess. In 50 years or so long after I'm gone gas vehicles are going to be vintage...
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