Project 61 Allstate with 2020 updates
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Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2793

Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:56 pm quote
With everyone posting up their Allstate builds, i figured i'd join in...

To start out with, i picked up the scooter from an insurance auto auction (Copart) about 8 years ago. It happened to be up for auction at their Portland, Oregon yard. The bidding is all done online, but you can preview the autos/motos beforehand (if you live close enough to one of their yards). I decided to NOT drive the 30 miles over to the yard to preview it. I placed a bid, and boom...later that week i found out i was the highest bidder! I was working a remodel job that was about 15 miles away from the auction yard, so i had a friend give me a lift over there in his car. I paid for the scooter (and all of the crazy auction fees as well), kicked it over and started it up, and rode it back to my jobsite. My buddy and i then stuffed it into the back of my 1980 Civic hunchback. I then transported it the 30 miles back home.

I didn't have much time to look it over until the weekend, but i pretty much knew what i had (more on that later)...which was an Allstate that was in pretty good condition. I took a picture of the two piece stamped steel headset, and showed it to my friend who builds very nice Lammys and Vespas. He recognized this particular scooter right away just by looking at the headset color. Turns out he was the one who was commissioned to build it for someone else!

The previous owner wanted a very nice, very quick, great handling, and very reliable Allstate. So that means that there was already installed a stock P200 engine, aftermarket shocks, PK fork, 10" wheels, and a semi-hydraulic Grimeca disc brake (which is exactly how i would build an older Vespa for the most part)! I only rode the Allstate a couple times because there was damage to the legshield where the badgebar had torn though the sheet metal. I didn't like the looks of the damage, so under a tarp it went for MANY years. About a month ago, most of my other scooters were apart, and i needed something to ride right away. So i pulled out the Allstate and it fired right up with fresh fuel in the tank! That ride definitely jumpstarted my motivation and love for the scooter! I wanted to do a few things to it to "make it my own". But there's only so many things you can do to a vintage scooter that has already been built pretty darn nicely. So my goals are to bring it up to the year 2020 with some modern-ish touches. Yes, all of the expensive stuff has already been done for me, but there are some tricky things that i still want to do to it. My two main goals are a full hydro front disc and MUCH better lighting (planning for LED on a 12VAC system). I'm sure other stuff too will happen...whether planned or unplanned.

Anyhow, here's a pic of the Allstate in the back of my little Civic right after i picked it up 8 years ago!


Notice the Lambretta sticker on the back window of my car?

cell phone pictures 141.JPG

Hooked
lml 2t 150 with sidecar, Vespa ET4 150cc
Joined: 21 Jan 2018
Posts: 299
Location: Wales
Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:21 pm quote
That's nice love the colour to.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2336
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:22 am quote
Great find!
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2793

Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:36 am quote
swiss1939 wrote:
Great find!
Yeah, it was. Most all everything was pretty much done already that i wanted to do to it, so it was almost cheating if you ask me.
Molto Verboso
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1818
Location: Florence, OR
Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:22 am quote
Wow - SCORE!!!!! That's an awesome find. All's you need is a Pinasco Electronic Ignition kit and fix the legshield. That is a great find indeed.

P200 in that frame....I can only imagine....

I'll be watching this thread to see what you do.
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2793

Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:25 am quote
There was a few things I wanted to sort out first, but my main focus was the oil leaks first. Being that the scooter had sat for about 6+ years since I last ride it, oil was seeping out between the cases. Possibly the crank seals were not compromised as well?...but I wasnít going to take any chances. Splitting the cases was a great opportunity to see what all was I going on inside. The whole transmission looked excellent, but I did replace the existing low mile cruciform with a new Crimaz Ďcross. I also swapped in a new short 4th (from a early P125X). For some reason I accidentally bought it from SIP probably about 15 years ago. I meant to have bought a T5 4th at the time, so this one was just gathering dust. And the reason I install short 4ths in all my stock 200 builds, is because where I live has LOTS of hills and headwinds to contend with. If i were to live in a flat area, I probably wouldnít ever swap in a short 4th.

While I was replacing seals, I decided to replace the fly side crank bearing...then I said to heck with it, and replaced both the clutch side and input shaft bearings too.

5462C010-0377-4ABB-A29E-00BAB78E9F5B.jpeg

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2793

Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:33 am quote
The existing piston had some blow by, so I could have either installed new rings, or installed a new piston...so I bought a new GS piston and took my cylinder in to get honed. If you look close, you can see it in the above picture.
I also installed a new GS cylinder exhaust stub. The old one was pretty knackered, and was a prime candidate for a leaky connection.

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Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2336
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:57 am quote
So you suggest its worth it to just replace the exhaust stub instead of using a crusty old one? It could potentially create an air leak?
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2793

Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:26 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
So you suggest its worth it to just replace the exhaust stub instead of using a crusty old one? It could potentially create an air leak?
Iíve had poor luck in the past with exhaust leaks at the pipe connection when theyíre gouged up. So if they are gouged quite a bit, itís worth it to be to buy a new one so I donít get frustrated with leaks.
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2793

Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:33 pm quote
qascooter wrote:
Wow - SCORE!!!!! That's an awesome find. All's you need is a Pinasco Electronic Ignition kit and fix the legshield. That is a great find indeed.

P200 in that frame....I can only imagine....

I'll be watching this thread to see what you do.
Yes, a big time score! It already has 12VAC ignition (P stator plate, conversion harness, Ducati CDI, OEM regulator), so I doubt Iíll step up to a Pinasco.

Iím not looking forward to fixing the legshield at all. Yes, itís a simple fix for me, but it would mean a complete respray if the whole front of the scooter. I was hoping to simply just mount a pair of stem mount Lucas lights (Lambretta style) in the existing holes that are torn, but the lights would be aesthetically too close together to look right.
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2793

Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:41 pm quote
grahamlml wrote:
That's nice love the colour to.
With all of the blue colored Allstates out there, possibly the best thing to ask is, ďso what shade blue is your Allstate?Ē

I do like the color quite a bit. When I went to ride it to the gym last month, a guy walked right by me, then backed up a few steps. He loved the blue color, and then got halfway through the word ďPorscheĒ, and I said, ďyes, orange Gulf livery would look great on this scooterĒ. Apparently he and I were both on the same page. No idea if I will go that route though. Probably only if I did a complete respray...
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2793

Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:03 pm quote
It took a fair amount of finagling, but I converted the rear brake over to a T5 cable. I had to shorten the front portion of the T5ís outer cable, then slipped an inner Lambretta rear brake cable inside it. I happened to have the bits in my shop to see if I could make it happen, and it all works well together.

And why convert over to a T5 rear brake cable? Well, if you have ever adjusted the rear brake cable on a T5, or have to remove the engine from the frame, then you would know just how quick and easy it is to do (compared to the standard way of pinching the cable between the two plates, or turning the barrel adjuster).

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Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1255
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:22 am quote
whodatschrome wrote:
It took a fair amount of finagling, but I converted the rear brake over to a T5 cable. I had to shorten the front portion of the T5ís outer cable, then slipped an inner Lambretta rear brake cable inside it. I happened to have the bits in my shop to see if I could make it happen, and it all works well together.

And why convert over to a T5 rear brake cable? Well, if you have ever adjusted the rear brake cable on a T5, or have to remove the engine from the frame, then you would know just how quick and easy it is to do (compared to the standard way of pinching the cable between the two plates, or turning the barrel adjuster).
Interesting I've never seen one before, looks like SIP used to stock a conversion kit. Looks like a one way trip? Did you have to drill out the adjuster on the back?

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/conversion-kit-brake-cable-rear-vespa-t5_J50015000?cr=e993ab67-6807-4109-bbed-f6374ebf9f9b&gpc_origin=shopping&gpc_feed_alias=de&gpc_pid=J50015000&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIi-LGqfiG7QIVFoeGCh285wWXEAQYAiABEgJtVfD_BwE
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2793

Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:22 am quote
Christopher_55934 wrote:
whodatschrome wrote:
It took a fair amount of finagling, but I converted the rear brake over to a T5 cable. I had to shorten the front portion of the T5ís outer cable, then slipped an inner Lambretta rear brake cable inside it. I happened to have the bits in my shop to see if I could make it happen, and it all works well together.

And why convert over to a T5 rear brake cable? Well, if you have ever adjusted the rear brake cable on a T5, or have to remove the engine from the frame, then you would know just how quick and easy it is to do (compared to the standard way of pinching the cable between the two plates, or turning the barrel adjuster).
Interesting I've never seen one before, looks like SIP used to stock a conversion kit. Looks like a one way trip? Did you have to drill out the adjuster on the back?

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/conversion-kit-brake-cable-rear-vespa-t5_J50015000?cr=e993ab67-6807-4109-bbed-f6374ebf9f9b&gpc_origin=shopping&gpc_feed_alias=de&gpc_pid=J50015000&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIi-LGqfiG7QIVFoeGCh285wWXEAQYAiABEgJtVfD_BwE
Yes, you have to drill out the threads on the adjuster. And once you do thereís no going back to the old way. But at the same time, there is no good reason to go back to the old way. Iíve done the conversion on 2 other PXís and a PK. It doesnít give you more horsepower or torque, but itís one of those mods that is strictly for ease of maintenance. It makes it so you can also drop the engine faster too. Plus i think it tidys up the cable underneath.

And yes, it shows that SIP used to sell the cable conversion in kit form. I donít know if they every actually did though. Ironically enough, you can buy all the parts separately and it might(?) cost less than in kit form.
Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2289

Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:17 am quote
Great find and progressing nicely.
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2070
Location: Veria, Greece
Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:37 am quote
Nice!!! On your next order get a thumb nut, retap it to M6 and it will be even easier to adjust the brake. T5s had them from the factory but no repros nowadays...

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/adjusting-nut-m5-mm-brake-front-sip_17964100?q=Brake%20nut%20px

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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8014
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:25 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
It took a fair amount of finagling....
You just described every scooter part I've ever bought!


Looks like a nice project. What do you have in mind for the master cylinder? This is the one that persuaded me you could have disc brakes on a classic Vespa and still look stock - at least to the uninitiated.

Or there's the 2 bottom photos, a clever solution to a semi setup. I hate to see that semi master cylinder hanging off the fork leg and ruining the beauty of the front end. The reservoir looks like it would be close to the tyre, but you could something smaller - I've seen ones that are not much bigger than a fat sharpie marker.

dscf2106.jpg

disc on VBB master cylinder.jpg

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Hidden semi

post-979-1200177882_thumb.jpg
Same one

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2793

Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:10 pm quote
SaFiS wrote:
Nice!!! On your next order get a thumb nut, retap it to M6 and it will be even easier to adjust the brake. T5s had them from the factory but no repros nowadays...

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/adjusting-nut-m5-mm-brake-front-sip_17964100?q=Brake%20nut%20px
Thank for for the pro tip SaFis. I'll get some of those screws ordered up! Also thanks for the picture of your T5 brake adjuster. Your pic is much clearer than mine.
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2793

Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:36 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
whodatschrome wrote:
It took a fair amount of finagling....
You just described every scooter part I've ever bought!


Looks like a nice project. What do you have in mind for the master cylinder? This is the one that persuaded me you could have disc brakes on a classic Vespa and still look stock - at least to the uninitiated.

Or there's the 2 bottom photos, a clever solution to a semi setup. I hate to see that semi master cylinder hanging off the fork leg and ruining the beauty of the front end. The reservoir looks like it would be close to the tyre, but you could something smaller - I've seen ones that are not much bigger than a fat sharpie marker.
For a master cylinder, Iím going to just use the standard M/C that you would find on any PX disc model. SIP has a very nice looking billet M/C that bolts has the same 2 bolt attachment, but I wasnít motivated financially enough to splurge for that particular M/C, so the standard black colored Piaggio unit will just have to work.

I too also dislike the looks of the semi-hydraulic master cylinder bolted to the fork....and thatís exactly where the semi-hydro M/C was mounted. Tucking it under the fender (ladyboy style), really isnít my thing either. Iíd much prefer just a single hydro line going from the bars down to the caliper. Ironically, the semi-hydro brake setup on this Allstate was was VERY strong! It could out brake all my other fully hydro discíd Vespas.

Iíll be modifying the Allstate headset to accept the standard Piaggio M/C. Iíve done that mod to 2 different P200 (early non-disc), a PK125XL, and my T5. It was more or less semi straight forward on those scooters (well not the T5 as much). You pretty much copy the exactly how the PX disc headset is, and start welding the aluminum (the whole process is much easier than it sounds). Since my Allstate headset is make out of stamped sheet metal, it severely lacks any sort of the support that is needed to mount an M/C to. So pretty much being that itís steel makes it less complicated to weld, but since itís only about a 1/16Ē thick, it makes it VERY difficult to make the whole thing structurally sound. MMW makes a super fancy billet mastercylinder/light switch switch housing, but itís a COMPLETELY different shape than the Allstateís. No way at all will it work. Wrong inside diameter, wrong length of the housing, wrong shape and contour as well.


Hereís a pic of the 2 piece headset.

A4A115C7-0819-4CEF-86C6-7BED413A70A5.jpeg

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2793

Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:00 pm quote
I did buy a knackered up lower Allstate headset from a friend to experiment with.

CCC1A438-00E8-4ADC-9538-522B7F1C4412.jpeg

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2793

Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:35 pm quote
And with the tubes removed it looks much different than a standard Vespa headset.

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Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2793

Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:39 pm quote
And with the paint stripped off the experimental tube.

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Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2793

Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:57 pm quote
I lined up the Allstate tube directly over the top of a discíd lower headset in order to see exactly where the master cylinder would need to be mounted. You kind kinda see just how thin the metal is near the sharpie line.

2BA94C5B-9D46-4E0F-87F4-3E5E65F13F52.jpeg

Enthusiast
'13 LML '70 Sprint Veloce
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Posts: 60
Location: London
Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:54 am quote
Ace! Could you kindly show us the mods done to the PK fork steering stops to make it work?
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2793

Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:10 am quote
jackytwoshoes wrote:
Ace! Could you kindly show us the mods done to the PK fork steering stops to make it work?
That's another thing that i need to sort out. I think the PK fork that is in the Allstate was purchased from SIP, and it did come with some steering stops that get screwed to the fork itself, but the headset still turns WAY too far both directions. The factory steering stop that's located behind the horn doesn't look bent at all either. It might be a few weeks before i get around to figuring both the problem and solution.
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2793

Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:25 am quote
After measuring 40x and staring at it for hours, thereís really no going back now...

CF872DBC-8AF6-4A2B-BB01-413E9F588FB1.jpeg

Molto Verboso
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1818
Location: Florence, OR
Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:08 am quote
Guts!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8014
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:25 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
Tucking it under the fender (ladyboy style), really isnít my thing either.
Thanks for that. Gave me a good laugh once I realised what you were talking about!

I'd forgotten about that type of headset. Yes it's very tricky obviously... is there going to be enough support? Will the m/c rotate with the tube?
jackytwoshoes wrote:
Ace! Could you kindly show us the mods done to the PK fork steering stops to make it work?
Jacky, WDC has seen this one before I think but I like this solution by a mate of mine. Simple cheap and petty solid.

James fork stop 2.jpg

James fork stop 1.jpg

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2793

Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:19 pm quote
Itís definitely tricky Ginch. That switch housing is completely hollow stamped sheet metal. So it there enough support for a master cylinder?...no not really without adding a bit of material.

As to the tube rotating, no it doesnít. In the Allstate headset, the outer tube that has the switch housing stays stationary since the end thatís located under the headset is attached to the headset support (Iím not sure what the actual name for it is) by two screws. The inner throttle tube is what rotates. The switch housing it actually tack welded to the switch housing tube.




In the pic you can see how thin it is.

63A98587-F5B1-42E4-9CC7-1737888D11AA.jpeg

Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1844
Location: california
Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:05 pm quote
Whodat!
Man - what a find this one is.
All the stuff you would want - except the super thin brake mount.
Is that piece of bar stock what you are going to fill in the brake mount with to give yourself something to work with?

The SIP PK fork has (had) two aluminum blocks carefully machined to perfectly miss the stock stops on the frame.
That's lucky - because they are held on with an M5 bolt that would have snapped anyway if they had managed to align.
That engineer was no fool!

Im sure you could fab some nicer ones. I like the basics of Ginch's. Maybe some replacement blocks that are tapped with allen head grub screws - that would allow you to do some fine adjustment after you assembled. Just a thought.

Lemme know if you wanna get rid of the old Grimeca. I was thinking about using one of those for the 58 Allstate handlebar model rusting in my garage.

Love this project - full of good stuff - and one of my fave models.
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2793

Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:06 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Whodat!
Man - what a find this one is.
All the stuff you would want - except the super thin brake mount.
Is that piece of bar stock what you are going to fill in the brake mount with to give yourself something to work with?

The SIP PK fork has (had) two aluminum blocks carefully machined to perfectly miss the stock stops on the frame.
That's lucky - because they are held on with an M5 bolt that would have snapped anyway if they had managed to align.
That engineer was no fool!

Im sure you could fab some nicer ones. I like the basics of Ginch's. Maybe some replacement blocks that are tapped with allen head grub screws - that would allow you to do some fine adjustment after you assembled. Just a thought.

Lemme know if you wanna get rid of the old Grimeca. I was thinking about using one of those for the 58 Allstate handlebar model rusting in my garage.

Love this project - full of good stuff - and one of my fave models.
Yes, the scooter was a big time score indeed. Lots of expensive stuff was done to it my the previous owner, but at the same time, i'll probably end up throwing the same amount of time and money into it to making it "my own".

Yup, i got lucky and found that square bar stock in the same drawer that i keep center punches and other drifts. It's 1/4" square, and i really didn't want to cut it up since i do use it quite often as a drift to remove wheel bearings. But it did get "involuntarily" sacrificed to the greater good.

And yes, those carefully machined silly little aluminum "break away" steering stop are on my fork as well. I have zero faith in them, so that will need to be rectified.

"Old Grimeca"? as in the remote semi-hydro reservoir?...'cause i think i have 4 of them in my shop? I have zero use for them. I have no idea why they're even included in the Grimeca disc brake kits. They are rarely ever used from what i've seen.
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2793

Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:08 pm quote
That 1/4Ē bar stock fits perfectly in between the old perch mount slot.

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Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2793

Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:09 pm quote
And a pic of it cut to length...

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Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2793

Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:12 pm quote
And with it welded in. Who cares what the welds look like (for the most part) since they will get ground down anyhow.

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Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2793

Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:16 pm quote
And with the welds ground down. Keep in mind Iím just kinda winging it as Iím going. My mantra is to keep throwing metal at it until it becomes substantial enough to support the M/C!

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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8014
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:05 pm quote
You do some lovely work WDC.
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2793

Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:20 am quote
Thank you for the compliment Ginch. Definitely the devil is in the details!

Like I said, since Iím just winging it, I ended up notching out another portion of the switch housing. I found a small 1/4Ē thick steel plate in my shop...that happened to be the exact size that I needed.

D9633E34-4FB5-4E1E-8430-E196D7F39924.jpeg

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2793

Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:22 am quote
I ground a ďVĒ into the steel plate so that the weld will have better penetration.

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Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2793

Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:27 am quote
I used the little 110V welder to weld the 1/4Ē plate to the thin switch housing. My main concern was warping the tube when I was welding. I didnít want to stop midway through the weld to let it cool, so I welded the whole length of the bracket, then quickly put the whole tube in the hydraulic shop press (with pressure on the opposite side that was hot) until it cooled down.

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P200 VNB Li125
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Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:28 am quote
WOW. Good Sorting!
Watching this one...
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