Flat spots on rollers
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 LX150 2015 GTS 2013 BV 350
Joined: 13 Sep 2012
Posts: 9414
Location: Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:21 pm quote
So, I did a transmission service on my 2013 BV350, not for mileage (4.5K), but to replace the 7+ y.o. belt. While I was in there, I replaced the rollers/guides, and noticed flat spots on two of them. I've read about flat spots, but not sure what conditions cause them (simple wear?), and am a bit curious why they should show up so early. Seems a good thing I replaced them at any rate.

Something else, related or not, when I bought the scooter a couple of years ago, the seller noted that it always had a somewhat pronounced clatter from the transmission especially at low speeds. Was somewhat hoping the new parts might affect that, but no, still there. Any other BV owners out there have that, or any explanation of what's going on?

Rollers.jpg

Hooked
2009 MP3 400, 2004 Honda ST1300
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 262
Location: Sayre, PA
Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:44 am quote
A: Normal wear.

B: You may be a candidate for a "Fuzzy washer' mod. Fuzzy Washer Performance Mod Explained
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 LX150 2015 GTS 2013 BV 350
Joined: 13 Sep 2012
Posts: 9414
Location: Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:41 am quote
pmatulew wrote:
A: Normal wear.

B: You may be a candidate for a "Fuzzy washer' mod. Fuzzy Washer Performance Mod Explained
Thanks. I think the wear part is what I would have expected, just seemed a bit premature.....

The Fuzzy washer sounds interesting..and easy, but to be clear, it's more of an auditory clatter, and not what I'd call a "shudder." Same thing??
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 3107
Location: East Anglia, a dryer region of the UK than Israel
Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:58 am quote
Flat spots indicate the rollers have jammed in the ramp plate and are not 'rolling'. You therefore may not have been getting the proper gearing as you ride. Regarding the noise, I'm no expert on the BV350 but the one I rode was very noisy from the tranny. It seems that can be normal for some of those bikes. Hope someone else can comment on that for you. Anyhoo....nice job!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 LX150 2015 GTS 2013 BV 350
Joined: 13 Sep 2012
Posts: 9414
Location: Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:00 am quote
Stromrider wrote:
Flat spots indicate the rollers have jammed in the ramp plate and are not 'rolling'. You therefore may not have been getting the proper gearing as you ride. Regarding the noise, I'm no expert on the BV350 but the one I rode was very noisy from the tranny. It seems that can be normal for some of those bikes. Hope someone else can comment on that for you. Anyhoo....nice job!
Thanks! Funny, I do trust myself not to mess up in a big way (though I still have two mysterious body panel screws waiting to find a home), but there's nothing quite like grabbing firm brake levers after a flush, and a nice test ride after doing work!

With a couple of years of riding it, performance has been seamless, so guessing gearing has been fine (AFAIK). I believe the seller told me he'd asked the dealer about the noise and was told it wasn't abnormal. Not that I'd totally trust the word of a random dealer, but it helps....
Addicted
2009 LX 150, 2008 GTS 250
Joined: 19 Jun 2011
Posts: 760
Location: Birmingham, Alabama, USA
Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:10 am quote
Good job with your roller replacement! My LX150 makes the roller rattling noise occasionally when I come to a stop such as at a traffic light. I have discovered a slight blip of the throttle will quiet the noise.

Bill
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 LX150 2015 GTS 2013 BV 350
Joined: 13 Sep 2012
Posts: 9414
Location: Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:24 am quote
Cosmos wrote:
Good job with your roller replacement! My LX150 makes the roller rattling noise occasionally when I come to a stop such as at a traffic light. I have discovered a slight blip of the throttle will quiet the noise.

Bill
I've heard rattling on the LX and GTS, but this is that on steroids. Kind of annoying, but hey, once I'm really moving, I don't care....
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The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 39104
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:44 pm quote
Those are very small flat spots compared to most I've seen. Rollers don't 'roll' anyway, they have to slide a bit on one surface or the other as they are flung out and back.
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Granturismo 218
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 6410
Location: NWAOK
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:31 pm quote
Adding a washer or two between the outer plate and the bushing as a means of tuning a variator is usually referred to as shimming a variator. You can get kits with a whole lot more shims than you will ever need or want. On the street, it is more popular with the Dr Pulley crowd and GY6 tuners than the people who tune the big bikes. As long as you don't go crazy and put so many shims on that you can't get the nut completely down on the threads, or the belt catches on the way down, you're not going to hurt anything.

.From what I've seen, once rollers start getting flat spots, they only get worse. The pressure on the belt isn't consistent, and when it gets bad enough, they start to get sort of stuck in the groove between the backplate and the drive face, and drag when they come back down. They seem to run hotter, and most of the times when I've seen variators where the bronze bushing has separated from the aluminum on the drive face, or rollers that have melted, most of the rest have big flat spots. If it's time, I would change them. But you can probably get a few thousand miles out of them, and a lot of people would put them back in and have no problems.

Last edited by Motovista on Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
Veni, Vidi, Posti
LX190, Primavera
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 6731
Location: New Zealand
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:41 pm quote
Slider envy?
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Granturismo 218
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Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:43 pm quote
What's with the new Avatar? It looks like someone stabbed a smurf and is trying to flush it down the toilet.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
LX190, Primavera
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 6731
Location: New Zealand
Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:13 pm quote
Motovista wrote:
What's with the new Avatar? It looks like someone stabbed a smurf and is trying to flush it down the toilet.
Errrr, it was this

5fa2647001b95.jpg

Ossessionato
LXV 150 3v ie. Midnight Blue (Sold)
Joined: 06 Dec 2010
Posts: 3448
Location: Kingdom of Lanna
Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:26 pm quote
Stromrider wrote:
Flat spots indicate the rollers have jammed in the ramp plate and are not 'rolling'.
It is impossible for cylindrical or "round" weights to "roll". They might be able to rattle around a bit at idle but not roll.
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2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 3107
Location: East Anglia, a dryer region of the UK than Israel
Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:27 am quote
Rollers actually do a combination of both rolling and sliding, but mostly sliding as you imply.
Ossessionato
LXV 150 3v ie. Midnight Blue (Sold)
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Posts: 3448
Location: Kingdom of Lanna
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:19 pm quote
Physics won't allow them to roll. I am not sure why they are called rollers and not simply weights.
I suspect it is part of the human experience thing. If one puts then on a bench they might roll away so they are obviously made that way for a reason. So people assume they roll without considering the physics.
Or they are called 'roller" by Dr. Pulley et al to distinguish their product which are designed differently and called sliding rollers, which implies the stock one roll.
All a bit of a misnomer.
Hooked
2016 GTS 300
Joined: 09 Nov 2016
Posts: 139
Location: New Zealand
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:33 pm quote
Waspmike, could you explain further why they can't roll, please?
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The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Posts: 39104
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:36 pm quote
Jim in NZ wrote:
Waspmike, could you explain further why they can't roll, please?
If they do roll on one side (say against the ramp plate) then they'd be scraping backwards against the variator channels.

They slip and slide, they do not roll.
Hooked
2016 GTS 300
Joined: 09 Nov 2016
Posts: 139
Location: New Zealand
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:39 pm quote
Thanks jimc. Just wanted to understand, as when I changed mine at 10,000km (6,000mi) they had bigger flat spots than the OP's rollers.
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The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 39104
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:50 pm quote
Jim in NZ wrote:
Thanks jimc. Just wanted to understand, as when I changed mine at 10,000km (6,000mi) they had bigger flat spots than the OP's rollers.
Mine would look terrible at even lower mileage! That's when I decided Dr Pulley's would make far more sense - combined with a variator shim washer to protect the oil sump gasket.

With Dr Pulley 'sliding rollers', the flat side slides up and down the flat surfaces of the ramp plate, and the curved side slides against the curved sides on the variator channels. They last a lot longer before going out of shape, which is important for us higher mileage riders.
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LXV 150 3v ie. Midnight Blue (Sold)
Joined: 06 Dec 2010
Posts: 3448
Location: Kingdom of Lanna
Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:37 pm quote
jimc wrote:
Jim in NZ wrote:
Waspmike, could you explain further why they can't roll, please?
If they do roll on one side (say against the ramp plate) then they'd be scraping backwards against the variator channels.

They slip and slide, they do not roll.
Exactly wot he said.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Lx 50 4T, GTS 250, S 150 (Missing in KS), Something Chinese, GT 200 (sold)
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Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:49 am quote
Motovista wrote:
What's with the new Avatar? It looks like someone stabbed a smurf and is trying to flush it down the toilet.
It is a roundel on acid. 🙂
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