Modern Vespa

<Yoinked>

It looked so pretty, sitting in the dappled shade, as I rode down a few hours of back roads to the Drop Zone.



Then I wen't a little too hard down the freeway, and coasted to a stop.



The shadow on the piston looked ominous.



For good reason



Mmm, toasty



And for good measure I've killed the cylinder too.



Yep. Today I.... Bolox.

Last edited by Gt6MK3 on Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:28 am; edited 1 time in total

I yoinked the original post and replies so I can docco this here without dirtying up the "Today I' thread.

Anyway...

Yep. It could be jetting, timing or an air leak.

It's deffo the fault of the dickhead who was riding.

Quick history of this bike.

Ginch and I were committed to driving 800km's away for the Motoretta Giro which was being held at Australia's most evocative racetrack, Mt Panorama in Bathurst Australia. I was absolutely going to take Hanoi Jane, but as time got close, I was fighting a jumping out of gear issue. With a week to go, a PX200 bobbed up locally online. The price was low enough to make it worth while, so the pressure came off the Hanoi Jane problem, and after a couple of new tires, a mirror and a repair to the tail light, a newly registered white
px200 came with us to Bathurst.

It behaved for the Moto laps, but then immediatly stopped idling. Inspection of the fuel tank showed not just surface rust, but a layer of rusty silt on the bottom of the tank.

I pulled and cleaned the tank, cleaned the carb, and blew up the starter relay and regulator by hooking a charger to the battery. New relay, reg and battery, and a couple of fried wires later, and it was rideable again.

It seriously lacked fun though. So I chucked a SIP road at it, gave it a SIP fast fuel tap, a Polini Venturi, and upjeted to a 140 main. I also added a TTO CHT.

Then I took it for a 3 hour tour.

It wasn't till the last 1/4 hour that I got to really hit WOT. Plug untill then looked ok, if anything a little sooty, but the roads were simply not condusive to WOT. Temps were a little higher than . I expected, pushing anything up to 370's, but that was it.

Last 15 minutes was a genuine smooth flat freeway, and I pinned it, keeping an eye on the CHT. Speed was over 90kmph (where the GPS speedo stops reading..), but under 110 - I was still getting overtaken. My but speedo says about 102-105.

It was 15 mins of genuine WOT, so I was watching the CHT like a hawk, and covering the clutch in case of a sieze. I'd given myself a max of 430F, and I hit 400, then 410, then 420, and 425. I topped out at 427, and it seemed to hold there.

Then it went. No power, and a big slowdown. As I pulled over, there was no compression as I geared down, so I was pretty sure it was catostrophic. Pulled the lid of the carb, and fuel was spitting in on turnover. Pulled the plug (pic below), it was bloody hot, and quite ugly. It still sparked on turnover, but I chucked in a spare just in case. No good, so I shone a light down the spark plug hole, and there was the answer.


My guess is that it was a combo of errors. First, I should have done a much shorter WOT run. I was 3kms from the end of about 25km's when it blew. If I'd looked after 4 or 5, I'd have seen the distressed plug. Second, I should have drilled out the 24/24 card when I had it out. The 140 probabbly didn't have enough flow with an undrilled carb. Third, I should have checked the timing before I thrashed it. I'll find out where it was and report back. Finally, when I pulled the cylinder cowl off (first time I'd done that), I discovers a 5cm round hole at the crown, so cooling was "less than optimal".


So, live and learn. Malossi sport 210 is on the way with new studs and a new cowl.





Last edited by Gt6MK3 on Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:49 am; edited 1 time in total

Thanks for the story GT. I love to hear the detail. That way maybe, and that's a big maybe, I can avoid the same in the future....

Great to see another rider from Melbourne out there!

I blame Ginch. Everyone that does a road trip with him seems to blow the motor.

Interesting but I AM NOT going to let you play with any of my rides, no, no, and again, No....

This is the main reason you ended up by the side of the road. I don't know where you got that 430F was a safe temperature? 330F maybe ok but still on the lower limit of increased wear. Race bikes do go a bit higher than 330F on the temperature but they are ridden to destruction and they don't care about component wear.

If you didn't retard the timing from stock when fitting the SIP exhaust, then this would be a contributing factor.

Obviously jetting and carb drilling is the biggest thing. Need to get your plan sorted for the shiny new Malossi Sport.

He is a genuinely bad influence. We get along well... Other peoples bikes I treat with kid gloves. Mine I ride like I stole. Was going off the numbers here http://modernvespa.com/forum/topic165647, and from Patricks Pdf http://oopsclunkthud.com/tuning/gauges.pdf. Live and learn...

Malossi should be here for the weekend

When applied to the P200 and as confirmed by your generous yet inconvenient experiment, 427F is known as "hole in the piston" temperature. Working back from this 375F would be ok but really doing bad things to the delicate parts. And back another 50 degrees to a nice comfortable torquey 325F, which would run for ever, become a family heirloom and you could even pass on to your grand children.

When you get the Malossi Sport on and when running in, 280F is the maximum you ever want to see.

BTW, could name this scooter 'Virgin Mary' as she's white and holy

Well, its Vanilla (in more than 1 sense)...as in colour & as in "standard/plain"...
http://www.bdsmwiki.info/Vanilla

Also, if you take it im The Australian Classic Scooter Mille it can become...
Mille Vanilli

You went the extra mile for the team shooting the yard sale picture on side of the road.

Could almost hear an audible "hmm, that doesn't look good" when you captured the shot down the spark plug hole. Kind to share - tho painful.

Look forward to the rebuild.

Name recommendation: (SS) Minnow

Color. Tour. Hole(s).

Jeeze Jack, I have no kids (and at 53 I think I'm unlikely), and I was on my way to go skydiving when I was conducting that particular test session. There's no grandchildren to leave 'em to, so it's test to the limit... The SS Minnow! We have a winner. Excellent! Of course that begs the age old question, who to pillion on the back, Ginger or Mary Ann?

Not my first yard sale - I've owned a Triumph GT6 since I was 24. And that's not even nearly the worst of the vehicle's I've broken down in or on along the way.


Question for the day - does anyone know which jets come with the Sip Malossi Sport 210 with the Sip road?

Answer: Both
# sidecar reason numbers 1-10

Sorry. NFI about the jets tho.

Was in the dark with no backlight, so didn't see this until I pulled into the light. Malossi Sport... no complaining, pinging or anything. Including damage. Now I use 400 as my max temp.

Dear Liza...

I'm with Ginch, no harm no foul but this was after a long uphill test run and I'm usually no more than 300 just running around normally.

Ginch is definitely winning. He may get the Darwin award but the Ashes are still up for grabs

Beat his previous record too! How hot is too hot?

There are a few reasons I keep saying between 300 and 350F is the target. First this is where the most power is and second the engine doesn't wear out as fast while going fast.

Pulled the engine Saturday night.



It was filthy, so I took it down to the local car wash and blasted it with the high pressure cleaner.

Sunday morning I headed down the road to Ginch's evil lair for a rebuild session. About an hour into the drive I was banging along on cruise control in the bogan van, when the back of the trailer of the truck in front of me got bored with the lane it was in, and headed into the one I was in, independent of the truck pulling it. I don't think it's driver was expecting to hit slushy snow, and I know I wasn't. Luckily he got it under control, and pulled over (I suspect for a trouser change).

I barrelled on, albeit a lot slower, and the snow in the fields told the story of the road conditions.



On arrival, Ginch had a nice clean table ready, and he and I set up the motor and broke it down.



then I got on with marking it up for porting and plugging for the Malossi Sport 210, while he sorted the internals.



The outside of the motor still needs some more cleaning, but we made sure the inside was VaderClean™.





The worktable took a hit though!



Ginch's reshimmed, tapped, cuddled and adjusted internals went into my carved and plugged case, and couple of new bearings were added, along with all new seals



Not certain I can trust Ginch's "she'll be right" alternative to a split pin...



We added the Sport 210, after a fair old wrestle with the piston circlips. Squish with a single base gasket we measured at .5 to .55 of a mm, so we added a .5mm copper head gasket. (we want this to be a grunty tourer that can pull 110km all day long, not a top end screamer).

After a very long day I loaded everything back into to van sometime after 11pm, and headed back to home. Prick of a drive home, the rain was horizontal and wind was hammering. I reckon it didn't rain for about 10 minutes, and that was in the tunnel under town...

Engine is currently it the garage with a heater pointed at it, gasket goo is drying on the pressure test plate. Hopefully it'll pass the pressure test and I'll whack it back in the bike this week.

Plan is to drill out the 24/24 to 2mm, then figure out jetting.

awesome!
like 5 seasons of Gilligan's isle shot in a single day, in Australia, in Ginch's garage, in the middle of winter.
you guys stop by for a cup of tea next time in Cali - and, u know, feel free to bring your tools!

When i came to Melbourne to live i got picked up from the airport by my "new boss", who while he lived in Knoxfield way (outer north-East burbs, a mere 40km or less from the CBD), & worked about 25km from CBD, he had NEVER been thru the tunnel, nor been in the CBD! ... so off we tootle, back towards the burbs & went thru that tunnel... halfway thru there was an almighty gushing on the windscreen as water poured from the roof of tunnel onto car... got settled into motel for the evening & turned on the news, only to find out they had CLOSED the tunnel due to a leak!
Found out later that they only single-skinned it (rather than double-skinned) to save $$, & it leaked, plus they have to constantly run FRESH WATER (not the stuff from the river it goes under ,as it has top much salt) around tunnel to stop it leaking! So, don't you be telling me there was no water in the tunnel!

Bugger.

That s**ks after all that hard work.

You could do what SaFiS did. Using your old and knackered cylinder, grind off the locating lug, then use it with grinding paste to level out your engine casing. Hopefully it's not your new Malossi cylinder that's the problem.

BLOWS actually

She's not called the SS Minnow for nothing...

Do you have any sort of base gasket there?
Was surprised when first introduced to these motors that metal to metal is even a thing - my old days (including TR6...) had a gasket on everything.

Concerned with my own build in this area - old cases that have gotten by - but with a soft felt based .5 packer that probably is making up for any imperfections.

Will be interested to see what you discover/ how you address.
Bummer you have to step backwards on this one - your carefulness pays tho...

Threebond is your friend here.

Theres a single foil gasket in there,but the fact is I was over agressive with the porting, so the 1.2mm sealing lip I left wasn't quite enough. I did add some epoxy metal on the outside to beef it up, but it shrunk back as it dried (like Ginch said it would), so it dousn't suppoirt as well as it could. When we put it together I was a but parisimous with the Threebond, probably trying to be too neat.

I pulled the cylinder, and resesealed it with more Threebond. Much more...

That finally got the cylinder to seal, but the test plate that goes in place of the carb box kept leaking. Temps in the garage haven't helped, no sealing compounds have wanted to cook off. I've also been making the mistake of leaving the test kit sealed while using a heater to try to cook of the sealeants. Heat plus a semi-sealed area equals higher pressure, so that pushes the uncooked sealant out...

Lesson learned, don't leave the thumbscrew tightened till the test.

It was still leaking (forth try, fuck fuck fuckity fuck!) when I got home from work at about 1am last night, and the of problem of getting the temp test plate to seal to where the carb box normally goes continued. The metal to metal connection wouldn't seal despite a few attempts this week. The plates' base isn't perfectly smooth, so I got medieval.

Grabbed a spare gasket to bridge the gap, and trowelled on a pretty much rediculous amount of rtv (I also stuffed a tiny bit of rag down the inlet so the RTV couldn't drip in there and give me trouble later).



Then I torqued down the plate (again), pointer an electric fan heater at it, and left it to cook off (with the pressure valve undone!).

This arvo I too it up to 6ish psi.



30 minutes later the pressure loss was negligable.



Took almost 3 hours to lose 1/3rd.



And after 9 hours it still had over 1/3rd.



User acceptance testing complete....Soon as the weather clears and work allows, in it goes!

Nailed it!

Seriously, next time just nail it... got a nail gun somewhere...

Craig Zeppelin

Or nail varnish... as good as JB Weld.

More work on The Minnow today.

Cleaned up and offered up the rear wheel. The new tubeless wheels and tyres available are great, but the short studs only just hang on to the flanged, serrated nuts they use. A mate had a wheel come off at speed last year, so I'm a little paranoid.



These nuts are good and tight, and have a visual mark for me to check so I can know thay havent moved



Next up was to install a RPM gauge. This should let me see what's happening with the adjustable CDI, to see if the rev range is improving.



Onto an adjustable clutch lever



A clear 2 stroke oil line so I can see if the autolube is doing its thing



An Ginch inspired adjustment to the exhaust mount so it doesn't need the wheel to come off to install/uninstall it



and a slot cut into the rear brake pedal so it will accept a T5 adjustable cable



This was followed by the dissapointment of finding broken fins on the flywheel



So I'll be spending again..

But, after a fight



In it went.



Time for a rest.

Speaking as "a mate", I'd say you're pretty brave or foolhardy to rely on those. Actually, let's just go with foolhardy. Brave would be the better description for the one riding behind you.

Just change the damn studs!

A word with the wheel vendor is not in order? This can't be right. Liability comes to mind.

Sip Road 2 has been given a "Ginch Slot"



Brake pedal also slotted to take T5 cable (Ginch not involved!)



Wasn't pleased tom find this. Will do till replacement arrives



Timing is still everything though...



Running in time...



Current spec.

1984 PX200E
Standard gearing
Standard Crank
Malossi 210 Sport
Cases Ported
TTO RPM and CHT
SIP adjustable Clutch lever
SIP T5 Rear Brake cable conversion
Motobatt MTBX9U
Kytronik 2016 curve 1 = 23° @ 3000rpm - 16° @ 7000rpm
BGM Fast Fuel tap
Polini Venturi
Sip road 2 with "Ginch Slot"


Coming soon.

SIP 4.0 Slide
SIP touring flywheel (1900grams)

Under Consideration

DRT 24/24 float chamber



Couple of 25 minute running in runs completed.


All jetting instructions/suggestions happily accepted!

Nice to be mobile!

Hey - awesome.
So nice to take those rides - about where I am.

Saw u had a homemade buzzwangle like tool in the mix.
Can you expand on how u use that for timing?
Doing anything special or just strobing?

If anything, I'm pretty sure it's a Voodoo slot. Thought it was in the tips and tricks thread but I can't find it. Anyway it works well!

Good to see you finally on the road!

GT6, for the carb, you could just get the Spaco float chamber top for the 5.2mm needle. With a bit of patience and a set of tiny drill bits, you can make all the necessary carb mods yourself. Would be easy, given all the clever stuff that you've done.

https://www.wasp-performance.co.uk/dellorto-si-5-2mm-float-chamber-top.html

Well done Craig. It lives again.

What jetting in there now? Filter or vortex or nothing ( )

It's a https://blog.scooter-center.com/en/port-timing-measurement-with-digital-degree-wheel/.

Predates the Buzzwangle, works well.


[quote="Ginch"] Apologies to Voodoo! That's food for thought. Thanks! Thanks Jack.

When I blew it up it was a bog standard P200e with a bog standard 24.24E running a 135 main and a Polini Venturi (using the Venturi Filter). BGM Fast Fuel feeding it. It was also running both 2% pre mix and the autolube because I didn't know if the autolube was running after pulling the tank. (black hose I couldn't see through).

I've now drilled the bowl to 2mm and upped the main to a 140, so its 55-160-BE3 60 140. The rest hasn't changed (Vortex, Filter, BGM Fast tap). Auto lube is running (now have a proper clear hose!), currently have 1/2 a tank of 2% left. No more premix after that.

There's a SIP 4.0 slide and a Pinasco high top carb box lid arriving Friday. Am considering a DRT float chamber (or similar).

Thoughts?

Does this mean 140MJ BE3 AC140 pilot 55/160 ?
And you have a Polini vortex with the filter instead of the bellows?