%#@ Weird crankcase oil
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 LX150 2015 GTS 2013 BV 350
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Location: Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:34 pm quote
Rode to work today as it was nearly 60. Got home and decided to do a bit of routine checking...tire pressure, oil....unscrewed the dipstick to wipe it, and noticed several spots that looked like little clots of cream (well, mucous at first blush). The oil itself appeared normal. Repeated the process a couple of times to see (hopefully) if it would come out normal. Nope.

I'm thinking possible coolant in the oil? I don't know if I'm panicking, but thinking this could be ominous.

Thoughts?
Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:44 pm quote
I'd be draining all the oil out to inspect it and to see if sludge (oil/water emulsion) really is present. If there really is some, then a head gasket swap is in your very near future. That isn't nearly as daunting as it sounds - it's actually quite easy if you take your time and double-check you're doing it right by watching videos etc. Once you've done one, you won't be in the least bit put out doing another - on a different bike of course!

It *can* be possible that the head or cylinder itself is cracked, but that's unlikely. If so, you'd soon find out, and then a Malossi upgrade will be your reward.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2012 Honda NC700 DCT
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Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:49 pm quote


I guess one can only hope you spilled some coffee when you had the dipstick out to remove the transmission cover....
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 LX150 2015 GTS 2013 BV 350
Joined: 13 Sep 2012
Posts: 9414
Location: Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:55 pm quote
Madison Sully wrote:


I guess one can only hope you spilled some coffee when you had the dipstick out to remove the transmission cover....
if only that.

I'd wish it happened BEFORE I changed the oil.

So guess I'm done riding until I get things sorted. So I guess draining and inspecting the oil is the next step. Is there anything else to test/inspect?

Seeing as I had just replaced fluids, I'm wondering if I'd messed up something. I did bleed the coolant..... Entirely possible for it to be a random event.
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:04 pm quote
drain it into a clean pan, look for anything white, off white, cream or milkshake looking.

that indicates water/coolant, so start poking around, because it has to come from somewhere.

look under the bike near the exhaust, check the head and cylinder base and see if anything is damp looking. check your coolant level, see if it's down.

hth

-g
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 LX150 2015 GTS 2013 BV 350
Joined: 13 Sep 2012
Posts: 9414
Location: Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:15 pm quote
greasy125 wrote:
drain it into a clean pan, look for anything white, off white, cream or milkshake looking.

that indicates water/coolant, so start poking around, because it has to come from somewhere.

look under the bike near the exhaust, check the head and cylinder base and see if anything is damp looking. check your coolant level, see if it's down.

hth

-g
Thanks.....looked at the coolant level, may be down a bit, but not low.

Dark now, and probably won't drain the oil until the weekend....keep you posted.
Ossessionato
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Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:41 am quote
Coolant in oil.
Gasket engine cylinder or pump seals the refrigerant...
You will need to clean the inside of the engine or dirty oil residue will seep into the rotating parts.
Hooked
Primavera 150
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Location: Long Beach, CA
Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:05 am quote
Any chance its just condensation from cold weather? Happens to cars all the time. People don't see it in scooters cause they don't tend to ride in cold weather.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Lx 50 4T, GTS 250, S 150 (Missing in KS), Something Chinese, GT 200 (sold)
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Location: KS USA
Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:37 am quote
I would check the little nipple on the lower left of the water pump.it shoud be dry. After riding place a paper napkin under it. It shoul not weep after you park it and turn the bike off as the pressure stabilizes.

Last edited by Max6200 on Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:16 am; edited 1 time in total
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
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Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:23 am quote
pokeyjoe wrote:
Any chance its just condensation from cold weather? Happens to cars all the time. People don't see it in scooters cause they don't tend to ride in cold weather.
Check oil, if no sign of water than what you saw could just be condensation. This can happen from short runs in cold weather.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 LX150 2015 GTS 2013 BV 350
Joined: 13 Sep 2012
Posts: 9414
Location: Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:36 pm quote
WEB-Tech wrote:
pokeyjoe wrote:
Any chance its just condensation from cold weather? Happens to cars all the time. People don't see it in scooters cause they don't tend to ride in cold weather.
Check oil, if no sign of water than what you saw could just be condensation. This can happen from short runs in cold weather.
Okay, may be wishful thinking, but kind of a gut feeling this could be what I'm dealing with. Regardless, a visual inspection is in order, and plan on draining the oil for a look at that as well.

If it is condensation, clearly I'm not riding enough and need a longer route home!

-took me forever to get back here because apparently a bunch of my passwords got compromised, including MV, changed them at home and forgot the flash drive that had the new ones on when I left for work.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:01 am quote
Flat rollers and milky oil!

Is that what you do around your birthday?🙂
Hooked
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Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:11 am quote
How about lots of short rides in cold--engine never really warming up or not run at highway speeds?
Ossessionato
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Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:13 am quote
Is there too much humidity in Fond du Lac?
Ossessionato
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Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:14 am quote
Yes John, that's what the guys are saying but also suggesting other common causes. I'm with you, it's probably the most likely thing. Needs more long rides to heat everything up properly and evap the water from the oil. Lets wait and see though.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 LX150 2015 GTS 2013 BV 350
Joined: 13 Sep 2012
Posts: 9414
Location: Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:27 am quote
Attila wrote:
Is there too much humidity in Fond du Lac?
Oh, it can get nasty humid. Being near the Great Lakes doesn't help.

FWIW, Weather wise it's been hovering around freezing at night, cool days....
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 LX150 2015 GTS 2013 BV 350
Joined: 13 Sep 2012
Posts: 9414
Location: Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:11 pm quote
Okay, finally the check-in.

Well, of course it's 2020. Decided to put it on the lift to get the center stand out of the way....rolled really hard for some reason....once on the lift, it was clear I had a major rear flat. I'd just checked when I checked the dipstick, and just possibly the valvestem got jammed or something....it's held air well for a couple of hours now...

Anyway, back to the main issue....ran the engine a few minutes just to warm the oil a bit, drained the oil, expecting, well, hoping it would look normal. I don't think so. Definitely milky, cafe au lait kind of vibe.

I did look around the engine as much as I could and could see nothing abnormal.

So, thoughts?

MVoil.jpg

MVoil2.jpg
Maybe doesn't look *quite* that pale in real life, but close enough

Veni, Vidi, Posti
Lx 50 4T, GTS 250, S 150 (Missing in KS), Something Chinese, GT 200 (sold)
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Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:24 pm quote
vespa cappuccino. Please keep us posted. This is sensationanal.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2012 Honda NC700 DCT
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Posts: 6236
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Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:37 pm quote
I mean the first picture was like, sorta OK it must be the lighting sort of thing.

That second picture though...


Ooooooo nooooo. Mama don't like that sort of milkshake.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:38 pm quote
Max6200 wrote:
vespa cappuccino. Please keep us posted. This is sensationanal.
Um, it sucks but I don't know about sensationanal sort of suckage.

Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2012 Honda NC700 DCT
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Posts: 6236
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:39 pm quote
So if you wait for half an hour or so, does it separate into two layers?

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
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Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:51 pm quote
Most likely water pump or head gasket.

What’s the underside of the head and cyl look like?

Everything else gets expensive with the quickness.

Good luck!

-g
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 LX150 2015 GTS 2013 BV 350
Joined: 13 Sep 2012
Posts: 9414
Location: Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:09 pm quote
greasy125 wrote:
Most likely water pump or head gasket.

What’s the underside of the head and cyl look like?

Everything else gets expensive with the quickness.

Good luck!

-g
I'm not sure what I'm really looking at. I tried to look around the engine as well as I could and didn't see anything suspicious.

I did remove the pump cover to drain the coolant, but don't see a connection with pump failure...but this is a bit beyond my basic knowledge....

Any way to differentiate the two?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 LX150 2015 GTS 2013 BV 350
Joined: 13 Sep 2012
Posts: 9414
Location: Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:13 pm quote
Trying to decide my motivation to tackle this. I'm a bit weary of projects after a chaotic fall and can't address anything over the winter (working with cold fingers is above my pay scale). It's trying to decide between "can" and "want to." Then again I could sleep on it for a couple of months.....
Moto Giro Titan
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Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:28 pm quote
Great photos of a bad situation, LOL. Hope you can get it sorted in time to ride in the Spring. You have couple of back up bikes, right?
MV Santa
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Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:46 pm quote
Step back.

Take a deep breath and think about all the good things that you have.

Family, security, a good life.

This will, in the long run be a minor hickup in your life.

The riding season is basically over for this year anyway.

No pressure.

Good luck.
Sergeant at Arms
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Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:54 pm quote
fledermaus wrote:
I'm not sure what I'm really looking at. I tried to look around the engine as well as I could and didn't see anything suspicious.

I did remove the pump cover to drain the coolant, but don't see a connection with pump failure...but this is a bit beyond my basic knowledge....

Any way to differentiate the two?
underneath where the exhaust connects, look for any dampness around the exhaust stub. also, base of cylinder (at the engine block), and between the head and cylinder. the head is alum. and silver, the barrel is painted black.

here you want to look for any weeping, oily junk, coolant, or anything damp.

if you have excessive white smoke on start up and while running.

those would indicate headgasket, possibly basegasket if at the bottom.

failed waterpump? that looks more like what you've got there. you can pressure test the system, but you'd have to devise a tool to do so. basically, when the internal seal fails, it dumps coolant into the engine (milkshake time). when the external seal fails it pukes out the weep hole. so, if it's not dribbling out of the weep hole and leaving a puddle, you can pretty much assume that it's an internal failure.

so, if you don't have anything freaky-leaky uptop then, you're gonna need a waterpump amigo.

your flushing of the coolant had no bearing or effect on this failure.

anyway, if i was a bettin' man i'd roll dice on a waterpump.

-g
Sergeant at Arms
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Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:57 pm quote
Madison Sully wrote:
So if you wait for half an hour or so, does it separate into two layers?

yes, then you skim the top off to fry with and use the bottom to slow braise.

j/k

nah, pretty much once it's emulsified it'll stay that way.

-g
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Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:10 pm quote
greasy125 wrote:
anyway, if i was a bettin' man i'd roll dice on a waterpump.

-g
True, in fact the water pump has moving parts and immediately receives the hottest liquid, therefore more subjected to thermal stress. If I may say it has always been a critical point in Piaggio engines, I had an Aprilia Scarabeo 400 (reduced Beverly 500 engine) and I changed two of them. Very expensive to do so and therefore causes premature sale.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:03 am quote
Madison Sully wrote:
Max6200 wrote:
vespa cappuccino. Please keep us posted. This is sensationanal.
Um, it sucks but I don't know about sensationanal sort of suckage.

My choice of words was wrong. Thanks for pointing that out. This situation is more tragic than sensational. My bad!
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Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:04 am quote
Dave - sounds like the collective consensus is a water pump. Seems like you have some Robot videos to watch, Haynes manual to consult, parts to procure, plan and execute!

Do you have a heated workspace?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:12 am quote
I am having a hard time picturing how a leaking water pump seal would allow coolant into the engine oil. As I understand it, the impeller (9) is on a shaft (7), and on that shaft are two seals (8 ) and (6). One seals coolant in that system (8 ), the other seals oil into the engine (6). Between these two seals is a gap, and in that gap is the weep hole that allows visual queue when one of the seals leaks.

What I don't see is the path coolant would take into the engine this way, while at the same time *not* dripping out the weep hole. Are we to assume the weep hole is blocked?

I do hope the water pump is the cause, as that seems the easiest fix (Piaggio part 8787565 for that whole cover, with water pump parts installed; looks like ~$165 including shipping). Or perhaps a $40 Scooterwest rebuild?

BV350 Water Pump.JPG

Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2012 Honda NC700 DCT
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Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:18 am quote
Though, if the gasket #14 leaked right at where the #14 is pointed (on the inboard side of that larger hole), that looks like a coolant duct coming off the water pump. I could see that being the problem.

BV350 Water Pump Gasket.JPG

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 LX150 2015 GTS 2013 BV 350
Joined: 13 Sep 2012
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Location: Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:36 am quote
Greasy, thanks for your input! At least I have something to do today....and it's not ass-freezing cold in the garage (no, Barry, not heated. ).

Robert, is that a GTS diagram? A few things look off there, though I admit I don't spend a lot of time looking at drawings..... good questions though...discussing this at breakfast and realize how little I know about water pumps... head gaskets, well, a bit more.

Seeing it's cold, and i'm old (good time to admit it), time to put it back up on the lift to look around.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Joined: 02 Mar 2013
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Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:39 am quote
fledermaus wrote:
Greasy, thanks for your input! At least I have something to do today....and it's not ass-freezing cold in the garage (no, Barry, not heated. ).

Robert, is that a GTS diagram? A few things look off there, though I admit I don't spend a lot of time looking at drawings..... good questions though...discussing this at breakfast and realize how little I know about water pumps... head gaskets, well, a bit more.

Seeing it's cold, and i'm old (good time to admit it), time to put it back up on the lift to look around.
I can't speak from experience here but those snips are from the BV350 parts manual online.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 LX150 2015 GTS 2013 BV 350
Joined: 13 Sep 2012
Posts: 9414
Location: Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:44 am quote
Madison Sully wrote:
fledermaus wrote:
Greasy, thanks for your input! At least I have something to do today....and it's not ass-freezing cold in the garage (no, Barry, not heated. ).

Robert, is that a GTS diagram? A few things look off there, though I admit I don't spend a lot of time looking at drawings..... good questions though...discussing this at breakfast and realize how little I know about water pumps... head gaskets, well, a bit more.

Seeing it's cold, and i'm old (good time to admit it), time to put it back up on the lift to look around.
I can't speak from experience here but those snips are from the BV350 parts manual online.
Aha. Just to be clear, it's my GTS that's in the infirmary. That's the downside of having multiple scooters (ask my wife for a more comprehensive list ).
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Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:09 pm quote
fledermaus wrote:
At least I have something to do today....and it's not ass-freezing cold in the garage (no, Barry, not heated. ).
Get yourself a cheapo CDH - Chinese Diesel Heater:
https://www.wish.com/product/5f9e16c5e7ba494cca18df38

No, flames do not come out of it - that's some idiot ad-man's idea to make it look inticing.

These work extremely well, I have a different version in our camper-van (2kW, not all-enclosed).
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Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:19 pm quote
Yep, I was going to suggest a salamander type heater may be the ticket for this situation!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 LX150 2015 GTS 2013 BV 350
Joined: 13 Sep 2012
Posts: 9414
Location: Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:57 pm quote
Okay, reporting in. First good news, whatever flattened my rear tire, it's holding air again...and a LOT easier to push around.

I checked the engine from every possible angle, no drips anywhere. Was a bit dirty on top and smeary to the touch, but then I think it may have gotten a bit messy with bleeding the coolant a couple of weeks back.

Started the engine to see if there was anything from the exhaust, but nothing visible at all.

So not sure where that leaves me.... though I guess pushes me towards water pump....
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 LX150 2015 GTS 2013 BV 350
Joined: 13 Sep 2012
Posts: 9414
Location: Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:03 pm quote
[quote="jimc"]
fledermaus wrote:
Get yourself a cheapo CDH - Chinese Diesel Heater:
https://www.wish.com/product/5f9e16c5e7ba494cca18df38

No, flames do not come out of it - that's some idiot ad-man's idea to make it look inticing.

Hmm. I kinda like the flames shooting out!

Good choice if I decide to have at the scooter yet this year....

Last edited by fledermaus on Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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