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My P150 has been upgraded with a Malossi 166 kit. It goes like a rocket, but unfortunately, like most racing engines, it does not have much torque. I live in a quite hilly area, thus I constantly have to shift down to 3rd gear. And since the Malossi can take revs, I can keep my speed up.

But I have been wondering: how would it perform if I put in a 4th gear with 36 teeth? (Compared to the standard 35 teeth).My reasoning says it would do better, since I would have more torque; and since it can rev quite high, I should not loose much speed on the top end. Or do I have it totally wrong?
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Don't you want a smaller 4th to keep the revs up (where the power is)? E.g. I thought the problem was that the space between 3rd and 4th was too wide, meaning that your revs in 4th when going up a hill are too low to be in the cylinder's sweet spot.

I could too be confused.
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yackee is right on what he is trying to accomplish

if you are shifting down to 3rd to get on the power because 4th is gutless, adding more teeth will put the rpm where you make power closer(*edit* - I had the direction wrong and fixed it now - 35 teeth for p200, 36 for p125/t5)

you want a shorter 4th (more teeth) not a longer one. Or improve your primary ratio so the revs go up, but making 4th closer to 3rd is preferable.
⚠️ Last edited by sdjohn on UTC; edited 3 times
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danie wrote:
But I have been wondering: how would it perform if I put in a 4th gear with 36 teeth? (Compared to the standard 35 teeth).My reasoning says it would do better, since I would have more torque; and since it can rev quite high, I should not loose much speed on the top end. Or do I have it totally wrong?
I believe that all P/PX 125 and 150 Vespas came with a 36 tooth 4th. So unless someone swapped in a 35 tooth 4th gear in your P150 at some point, it "should" still have the original 36 tooth 4th. The 35 tooth 4th is what came stock in the P200's.
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whodats made me realize I had it wrong, so I edited my post

yes p125 and p150 should have 36 tooth already and this is the correct direction, don't go down to 35
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What are you using for a clutch cog? You could go down a tooth there to increase rpm in 4th. Downside is it reduces all the gears.
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yackee wrote:
Don't you want a smaller 4th to keep the revs up (where the power is)? E.g. I thought the problem was that the space between 3rd and 4th was too wide, meaning that your revs in 4th when going up a hill are too low to be in the cylinder's sweet spot.

I could too be confused.
Yeah I was confused -- shorter = more teeth. Taller = less teeth.
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yeah that's where a good gearing spreadsheet can help. Here's mine if it helps.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Uqrh67NM-ZuIIfYgGnZXCCl7ybZiqHALiJBEqNL-_1I/edit?usp=sharing

I think you can save a copy of it but even if you screw it up I have a private copy, so go play if you like. There are reference tires / gear sets / etc on the other tabs.
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sdjohn wrote:
yeah that's where a good gearing spreadsheet can help. Here's mine if it helps.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Uqrh67NM-ZuIIfYgGnZXCCl7ybZiqHALiJBEqNL-_1I/edit?usp=sharing

I think you can save a copy of it but even if you screw it up I have a private copy, so go play if you like. There are reference tires / gear sets / etc on the other tabs.
Thanks for this spreadsheet! I definitely copied it to my drive. Easier than the scooterhelp gearbox calculator cause you can customize it exactly how you want it.
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Yeah I really like having 2 configurations side by side so you can compare how a change will work and having the green/red for each gear to look at where shifts will take you.
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The PX150 came with a 35T 4th, just like a PX200. In fact, it is a PX200 gearbox, just with a 21/68 clutch/primary combo rather than 23/65 of the 200. I have both 2005 and 2012 examples of the PX150, and both had the 35T 4th from factory. The 125 had the 36T together with the T5
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swa45 wrote:
The PX150 came with a 35T 4th, just like a PX200. In fact, it is a PX200 gearbox, just with a 21/68 clutch/primary combo rather than 23/65 of the 200. I have both 2005 and 2012 examples of the PX150, and both had the 35T 4th from factory. The 125 had the 36T together with the T5
interesting, seems they may have changed over time.... at any rate the thing to do is to count the teeth if you really want to know, right? especially with more "experienced" bikes...
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Thanks guys, looks like I have been reasoning in the right direction. My 4th gear has definitely 35 teeth, thus I will have to go for 36. Hovever, a very important question: do you think it is worthwhile?

Thanks again for all the advice. And a Merry Christmas to you all.
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Re: P150 gear ratio
danie wrote:
My P150 has been upgraded with a Malossi 166 kit. It goes like a rocket, but unfortunately, like most racing engines, it does not have much torque.
Like most racing engines. Not but like. Malossi 166 not famed for torque but adding some more will be easier than changing gear cogs. Exactly how the port timing, squish, exhaust pipe and jetting are adjusted determines the torque.
Talk us through the set up and you might get away with only some adjustments.
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Re: P150 gear ratio
Jack221 wrote:
danie wrote:
My P150 has been upgraded with a Malossi 166 kit. It goes like a rocket, but unfortunately, like most racing engines, it does not have much torque.
Like most racing engines. Not but like. Malossi 166 not famed for torque but adding some more will be easier than changing gear cogs. Exactly how the port timing, squish, exhaust pipe and jetting are adjusted determines the torque.
Talk us through the set up and you might get away with only some adjustments.
I have the Malossi 31-4093 kit. The timing is 18° as per instructions. The crankshaft and crankcase were modified as per Malossi instructions. The carb is a 20/20 with:
Idle jet: 52-140
Air jet: 160
Mixer: BE3
Main jet: 115

The exhaust is a SIP Road XL.
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sdjohn wrote:
yeah that's where a good gearing spreadsheet can help. Here's mine if it helps.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Uqrh67NM-ZuIIfYgGnZXCCl7ybZiqHALiJBEqNL-_1I/edit?usp=sharing
What are the max revs I can get out of a Malossi 166?
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Re: P150 gear ratio
danie wrote:
Jack221 wrote:
danie wrote:
My P150 has been upgraded with a Malossi 166 kit. It goes like a rocket, but unfortunately, like most racing engines, it does not have much torque.
Like most racing engines. Not but like. Malossi 166 not famed for torque but adding some more will be easier than changing gear cogs. Exactly how the port timing, squish, exhaust pipe and jetting are adjusted determines the torque.
Talk us through the set up and you might get away with only some adjustments.
I have the Malossi 31-4093 kit. The timing is 18° as per instructions. The crankshaft and crankcase were modified as per Malossi instructions. The carb is a 20/20 with:
Idle jet: 52-140
Air jet: 160
Mixer: BE3
Main jet: 115

The exhaust is a SIP Road XL.
From this the only issues are the air corrector and atomiser. As it is a 20/20 carb I would try AC140 and BE5 first. Having too much mid range air makes the torque weak.

Did you measure your Transfer timing and squish clearance. Or just bolt on the 166 and hope for the best?
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There's a whole bunch to unpack here.

The 20/20 should be sufficient

But if you're having problems pulling midrange I'd be looking at clutch gear or jetting.

The 150 gearing should be where you want to be and that should haul ass all over town.

That kit will rev out well past the limit of the rings. The 20/20 is keeping it alive. But that's really not the choke point.

A different clutch cog and a lighter flywheel might be what you're looking for.

Or jetting, and bigger carb.

-g
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Do you have a tachometer? Can you tell us the rpm you are at when you start up the hill? What speeds are you going when you start up this hill? I was battling an up hill loss of speed, but that was at 55 - 60 mph. At lower speeds of 40 or 45 around town it wasn't a problem. It would help to have this background.


Something to think about or a little food for thought. I haven't experimented with different exhaust pipes. I do know the SIP Road XL likes higher rpm not lower. I have one and it works great at the 5500 - 6500 rpm range I'm running at, when riding at 60 -65 mph. I've seen the same results on dyno tests. If your at a lower rpm say 4000 - 5000rpm around town, there are better exhaust pipes for that situation. Some have 15%+ more torque at that lower rpm. If the Malossi kit likes a higher rpm, and I think it does from reading here. Then the exhaust should be fine and you could change gears for that rpm, if that's not where you are running already, as you are looking at doing. The guys here that are familiar with that Malossi kit should be able to help you with the rpm that kit likes to run at, and gears to match if needed. With the XL exhaust and Malossi kit, I think you built a higher rpm motor, not a low rpm torque motor. If your trying to ride at a lower rpm that could be part of the problem.

Need advice on Malossi 166 kit
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I also have the Polini 23/64 gearbox.

And Jack, I only made the mods recommended by Malossi. The transfer gap was machined 20mm wider, what this is in degrees, I don't know.

And I must say, when we go up a mountain pass and I am in 3rd, no 200 can keep up with me. (Or even when we are on level roads.) I just came back from a ride, and I measured my speed with my GPS: 110km/h on a level road.

So speed and revs I have enough, I just need some more torque when going uphill.
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danie wrote:
I also have the Polini 23/64 gearbox.

And Jack, I only made the mods recommended by Malossi. The transfer gap was machined 20mm wider, what this is in degrees, I don't know.

And I must say, when we go up a mountain pass and I am in 3rd, no 200 can keep up with me. (Or even when we are on level roads.) I just came back from a ride, and I measured my speed with my GPS: 110km/h on a level road.

So speed and revs I have enough, I just need some more torque when going uphill.
I think your geared higher than a factory P200, meaning more over drive or less rpm at a given speed. From my experience, I bet if you are on a small hill you slow down, driving into a strong wind you slow down, a windy day on a flat road you slow down, on calm day on a flat road you are fine. I tried a 23/68 on my 177 and it was to much and I went back down to a 22/68.


My Pinasco P225 with a 36 tooth 4th gear and 24/65 clutch gear goes 105.51 kph at 6000 rpm.

Your 166 motor with a 35 tooth 4th gear and 23/64 clutch gears goes 105.28 kph.

If you have a 36 tooth you can go 102.85 kph.

My point being you have a Malossi 166 geared the same as my Pinasco P225. I bet you are having a hard time with any hill. You are also geared higher than my previous reed valve 177 motor that didn't like a 23 tooth cog. If it were mine I would try 21 or 22 tooth, clutch cog. I was told not to gear it any higher and I had to try and I ended up with a gutless scooter that couldn't climb a hill with any speed. I did like it better around town.
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danie wrote:
sdjohn wrote:
yeah that's where a good gearing spreadsheet can help. Here's mine if it helps.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Uqrh67NM-ZuIIfYgGnZXCCl7ybZiqHALiJBEqNL-_1I/edit?usp=sharing
What are the max revs I can get out of a Malossi 166?
im not sure, but I usually set the max RPM in the sheet based on where the engine falls on its face in 3rd or 2nd.
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A tach helps but you can figure the rpm based on the speedo mph where it loses steam
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23/64 coupled with the same gearbox as a P2 sounds way over geared for a Malossi 166 with a 20/20 carb. A grunty kit like a BGM 177 could just about pull that gearing, but I would have thought 22/68 and a 36T 4th would work well for you.
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As said by everyone; never going to pull that gearing in 4th up hill.

Jetting does need changing, the very high gearing is probably saving the piston. So BGM kit or change the primary back. Just need to decide the type of scooter you want.
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swa45 wrote:
23/64 coupled with the same gearbox as a P2 sounds way over geared for a Malossi 166 with a 20/20 carb. A grunty kit like a BGM 177 could just about pull that gearing, but I would have thought 22/68 and a 36T 4th would work well for you.
Ive got same kit (more modified) on my stella with 22/68 35T 4th, same exhaust, 24/24 carb, and its got plenty of torque for hills in any gear. Can cruise in 3rd or 4th pretty much anywhere from 20mph to 60mph.
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Ok, so after all the comments and advice it looks as if I have a gearing problem.
That the 22/68 will work better.
And I must change to a 140AC and BE5 mixer.

At one stage I did use a 24/24 carb, but the intake hole in the P150 casing was much smaller than the 24/24 outlet, so it was actually a waste
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Or do you guys think I must go for a BGM177 kit?

Or maybe I must just put the P200 motor in that I have spare?
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danie wrote:
Or do you guys think I must go for a BGM177 kit?

Or maybe I must just put the P200 motor in that I have spare?
Or eat fewer doughnuts.
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Can you get a smaller clutch cog for the straight cut Polini gears? I'd put in a 21 tooth and see what it feels like, easiest to do if possible. Put in the 36 tooth 4th and it will help some, on my bike each clutch cog tooth is worth about 250 rpm in fourth gear. The problem is its subjective, you have to set it up for you and where you ride. Especially when you get to 55 - 65 mph speeds and hills. Around town higher gearing was great for me I liked it. First time on a small hill at 55 mph I was shifting into third and running WOT up the hill, put a 22 tooth gear in.

I like my P225 for my riding style better then my 177, I want a reliable 60mph even on a hill. If I had a good P200 sitting sidelined, I would be putting money into it. I would have a hard time going back to my 177 at this point for my riding style. But I have no comparison for a well built 177 for my riding style. My P225 has over $1200.00 US in aftermarket parts, with a Pinasco 60mm crankshaft, P225 kit and Mikuni 30mm carburetor. It's not a high revving kit but it is well built for low rpm torque.
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At this stage I will go with the 22/68 gear ratio, since I have those items as spares. I love my Malossi, so opting for the 200cc will be my last resort. (I already have a P200, so a second one will not be appreciated properly).
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danie wrote:
At this stage I will go with the 22/68 gear ratio, since I have those items as spares. I love my Malossi, so opting for the 200cc will be my last resort. (I already have a P200, so a second one will not be appreciated properly).
If you're going to split the cases, I would put in that 36 tooth 4th you are looking at if you don't have one already. I like the closer 3rd 4th gear ratio. It allows you to gear a bit higher with the 22 and not make 1st gear so low. The reason I bring it up is, I found first gear almost useless and was starting off in 2nd with a bit more clutch slippage with a 21 tooth.


You could also try a 3rd gear with one less tooth instead of a 4th with one more.

Either way works, on the road at 55mph and climbing a hill, the speed change between 3rd and 4th as you noted is a large change.
⚠️ Last edited by Christopher_55934 on UTC; edited 2 times
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I second the 36t 4th idea even with primary change.
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I changed the ratio from 23/64 to 22/68, and took my Malossi for a ride yesterday. I could only reach 105km/h (compared to the previous 110), but man, did I have torque! No downshifting to 3rd when I hit the hills.

Thanks to you all for the comments and advice, it is appreciated
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8149
Location: San Diego, CA
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@sdjohn avatar
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8149
Location: San Diego, CA
UTC quote
I'd make that trade off any day all day long
@scooterist avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1487
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
@scooterist avatar
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1487
Location: Tucson, AZ
UTC quote
I wrote a post here 2-3 years ago. I have a PX150 with a 166 kit. I always complained that my engine was raving to high in 4th gear. I specifically mentioned a few times that :"it felts as if the engine was going to explode" .

I ended up putting a P200 engine on the PX150 with a malossi 210 cc. The gears are very long, sometimes 4th gear is just too long and if there is any slight head wind my scooter seems to stall at around 65 mph. Sometimes I am lucky and the scooter keeps climbing pass 75 mph comfortably(when there is no wind).

The other day I watched tail wind(just a little bit), I was on the Interstate (I-10) merging in and when I looked down my speedometer was buried well pass the 75mph I calculated it would be at least 80 mph and I wasn't even tucked in nor I was full throttle, it was very scary.

Back to the 166cc, before I did the P200E engine with malossi 210 the 166cc used to rev nicely on any gear although it had absolutely no torque. My only concern was that in 4th gear it would just scream pass 65 mph, I hit 75 mph on a few occasions but I always said that it was a very uncomfortable sensation of feeling that the engine was over revving. Someone on this topic suggested that the PX150 and the P200 have the same gearing, I honestly don't know and since I am not sure about it I will not challenge the information but what I can confirm is that my PX150 with the current Malossi 210cc doesn't break a sweat, it revs comfortably in 4th gear and it doesn't sound that the engine is working hard at all while on the same scooter with the 166cc set up (oem 150cc vespa PX gearing) it felt like you were over-revving.

It boils down to the type of use you have on your scooter and how comfortable you feel riding on your particular surroundings.
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181 Quattrini and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4438
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181 Quattrini and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4438
Location: London UK
UTC quote
danie wrote:
I changed the ratio from 23/64 to 22/68, and took my Malossi for a ride yesterday. I could only reach 105km/h (compared to the previous 110), but man, did I have torque! No downshifting to 3rd when I hit the hills.

Thanks to you all for the comments and advice, it is appreciated
The 22/68 gearing isn't actually that low. If you add another 1000 rpm to your cylinder it will be pretty quick as well as torquey. Stock DR can easily be modified.

When one of these feels rough, slow, shaky or like it's screaming, usually it's just set up badly. They rev little more than stock. To make sure yours lasts, what is the jetting? I hope it's not still on the AC160.
UTC

Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1975
Location: UK (South East)
 
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1975
Location: UK (South East)
UTC quote
scooterist wrote:
Someone on this topic suggested that the PX150 and the P200 have the same gearing, I honestly don't know and since I am not sure about it I will not challenge the information
The PX150 and PX200 do have the same gearbox, but not the same clutch and primary gears. The 150 uses 21/68 and the 200 uses 23/65. This makes a big difference to the overall ratios. Those that are using a kitted PX150 (and LML??) will therefore have the same 1st and 4th gear cogs as a PX200 (57T and 35T), but different to a PX125 which has the 58T 1st and 36T 4th
OP
@danie avatar
UTC

Hooked
1957 VN2, 1970 180 Rally, 1980 P150X and P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 351
Location: George, South Africa
 
Hooked
@danie avatar
1957 VN2, 1970 180 Rally, 1980 P150X and P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 351
Location: George, South Africa
UTC quote
Jack221 wrote:
To make sure yours lasts, what is the jetting? I hope it's not still on the AC160.
Jack, you previously recommended that I use an AC140 jet and a BE5 mixer. I do not have a BE5 mixer, only the 140 jet. Will it still make sense to only change the AC jet?
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181 Quattrini and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4438
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181 Quattrini and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4438
Location: London UK
UTC quote
Swa45, PX150 had a 21 but didn't the P150X have a 22 cog? Why they ever change it?
danie wrote:
Jack221 wrote:
To make sure yours lasts, what is the jetting? I hope it's not still on the AC160.
Jack, you previously recommended that I use an AC140 jet and a BE5 mixer. I do not have a BE5 mixer, only the 140 jet. Will it still make sense to only change the AC jet?
Get it changed. Run the AC140 and BE3. Will be safer but not correct, however, it is a legal combination. If you have a BE4 that would be much safer than the BE3.

If no BE4. While you're waiting, you could make a BE5. If you solder up 2 of the 4 top holes. This will get you by until a BE5 arrives.
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