New To Texas: Non-Ethanol Fuel
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2010 S50 Modified "Punkin"; 2003 ET4 Malossi 187 "ISO"
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Location: Deepinnaharta, Texas
Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:37 pm quote
Greetings:

A Brand-New Quikkie-Mart just opened down the block, featuring a fuel pump detail not previously seen here:

Non_ethanol90.jpg

Hooked
'79 - V90 =//= 2005 - ET2
Joined: 05 Sep 2019
Posts: 147
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Wed Dec 23, 2020 5:41 am quote
Almost impossible to find in downstate NY and NJ. It's a shame we are all being forced to pump corn into our vehicles.
Ossessionato
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
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Location: Latina (Italy)
Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:00 am quote
In a few years what will you put as fuel in your scooters ..? Bioethanol?
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2020 GTS 300 HPE
Joined: 24 Mar 2018
Posts: 807
Location: south Texas
Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:19 am quote
Good find - I haven't found a non-ethanol selection anywhere near us in deep south Texas.
Molto Verboso
2013 Vespa 300 Super, 2007 Burgman 400
Joined: 30 Mar 2014
Posts: 1911
Location: Minneapolis USA
Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:53 am quote
Non-Ethanol Gas
Here in Minnesota, Non-Ethanol is available at occasional stations in Urban areas and most stations in rural areas.

I use Non-Ethanol in my scooters and other non-auto machines like lawn mowers, snow blowers, power washers. Also, most boating enthusiasts use
it. So, boaters, power sports (ATVs, Snowmobiles) and farmers use Non-Ethanol.

Positive from corn-gas, the gas lines do not freeze up. In cold Minnesota, we use to have to add a product called "Heet" (small can) to keep fuel lines from freezing when the temperatures were -5 to -20 F. I also use to place a large
piece of carpet between the Grill and Radiator. Evidently, the alcohol content in the corn gas keeps it from freezing.

All part of life in Frost Bite Falls Minnesota.

Bob Copeland
Blizzard coming in from the West today with 50 mile per hour winds and 7 inches of snow.

IMG_0748.JPG
Colder than a Well Diggers Behind Today!

Addicted
2010 GTV250ie - Sienna Ivory
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Location: North Coast - Rural
Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:57 am quote
Pure-gas.org lists ethanol free gas stations in the USA and Canada. It's a start - on the lines of how Gas Buddy started.
Grumpy Biker
1980 Vespa P200e (sold), 2002 Vespa ET4 (sold), 1949 Harley-Davidson FL
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 4782
Location: Chandler, Arizona, USA
Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:30 am quote
I have never had any difficulty running 10% ethanol fuel in any of my PTWs. Vintage Harley-Davidson, vintage Vespa, modern Vespa, they all run just fine.

With my car, I go in search of the highest ethanol content I can find within a reasonable drive from home. If I drive 7 miles to fill up, I can get 90% ethanol fuel. I have a flex fuel kit on my car that adjusts the tune according to the ethanol content. I pick up 90hp by running E90 compared to running E10 pump gas. Unfortunately, the fuel mileage with high E content is abysmal. Gotta pay to play, I guess

-Craig
Ossessionato
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
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Location: Latina (Italy)
Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:48 am quote
But i wonder ... what are the long-term effects (if any) on engines?
And you will say ... but what does the Italian care about this? Well ... sooner or later it will also happen here if it has not already been done.
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2007 GT200, 2008 Yamaha C3
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Location: Denver
Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:16 pm quote
Modern engines are engineered with ethanol in mind. Anyone who tells you otherwise is pitching snake oil.
Hooked
2020 GTS 300 HPE
Joined: 27 Sep 2019
Posts: 265
Location: San Francisco
Wed Dec 23, 2020 1:12 pm quote
I ran a couple of tanks 87E0 on a roadtrip. Mileage was increased (82 and 84MPG), although if you've gotta go 4mi each way out of your way to get ethanol-free gas, it burns up the savings.
Enthusiast
Vespa Supertech
Joined: 17 Nov 2020
Posts: 51
Location: Australia
Wed Dec 23, 2020 1:17 pm quote
From the manual for my HPE:
Prescribed fuel: Minimum 95 octane unleaded petrol

DO NOT USE PETROL WITH AN ETHANOL CONTENT HIGHER THAN 10%; THIS
USE COULD DAMAGE THE FUEL SYSTEM COMPONENTS AND/OR COMPRO-
MISE ENGINE PERFORMANCE.
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2010 GTV250ie - Sienna Ivory
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Location: North Coast - Rural
Wed Dec 23, 2020 3:08 pm quote
Captain Jim wrote:
Good find - I haven't found a non-ethanol selection anywhere near us in deep south Texas.
IIR, y'all are on SPI? Can't get much closer than Brownsville in the TX list at pure-gas.org
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2020 GTS 300 HPE
Joined: 24 Mar 2018
Posts: 807
Location: south Texas
Wed Dec 23, 2020 5:07 pm quote
Big_Boys_Mother wrote:
Captain Jim wrote:
Good find - I haven't found a non-ethanol selection anywhere near us in deep south Texas.
IIR, y'all are on SPI? Can't get much closer than Brownsville in the TX list at pure-gas.org
Yeah, that station only has 87 octane non-ethanol. It's about 25-30 miles away, and not where we tend to go.

During the last three summers in the Black Hills, non-ethanol is easier to find, and in premium. The fuel mileage goes up by more than 10% and the bike seems to enjoy it.

Down here in the Tropical Tip, I got 72-75mpg with the 2009 GTS. In the Black Hills, it was 85+mpg. Not that the mileage is going to make or break the riding, but I have no use for ethanol. To me, it was an experiment that only benefited those making ethanol. Modern engines may be designed for it, but I've seen what happens when that crap separates out and causes corrosion.
Hooked
2019 Piaggio Liberty 150
Joined: 20 Feb 2019
Posts: 442
Location: Norfolk, VA
Wed Dec 23, 2020 5:38 pm quote
Fuel Buddy app list know ethanol free gas stations. I have one near me. I used to get 5 gallons and run it thru my 2-strokes before winter.
Hooked
S150, Beo 500ie
Joined: 14 Aug 2019
Posts: 437
Location: Bermuda
Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:36 pm quote
Ethanol, whether part of the fuel recipe or added in the form of "Heet," absorbs water in the tank which then is (hopefully) burned off in the combustion cycle.

This is all well and good if you have some water in the tank - it does prevent that water from freezing in the winter assuming the fuel gets used relatively quickly. The problem is that ethanol also absorbs water from the air, and over time the absorbed water hanging around in the fuel system forms a reddish-brown sludge that can clog carbs. This is what is so bad about ethanol fuel in small engines, especially those that are used seasonally.
Ossessionato
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 4681
Location: Latina (Italy)
Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:05 am quote
Yes ... but the temptation of producers could be to dilute more (with ethanol) beyond the percentage indicated by the law, this can happen all over the world (in Italy you can find everything, they discover them but in the meantime the fuels damage the motors). We would need a way to do the DIY test and figure out if the percentage per gallon (liter) is correct.
But when handling flammable substances it becomes a little dangerous ...
Ossessionato
GTS250
Joined: 16 Jan 2010
Posts: 3715
Location: Tempe, AZ
Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:22 pm quote
Maverick has E-free gas where I am, but it's $.20 more than regular.
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Gts 300 notte
Joined: 27 May 2020
Posts: 62
Location: Toronto
Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:02 pm quote
Wheelman-111 wrote:
Greetings:

A Brand-New Quikkie-Mart just opened down the block, featuring a fuel pump detail not previously seen here:
So normally I fill the wasp with 91. If I were to ever come across this...what would I choose? 93?
Addicted
2010 S50 Modified "Punkin"; 2003 ET4 Malossi 187 "ISO"
Joined: 18 Feb 2017
Posts: 642
Location: Deepinnaharta, Texas
Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:30 pm quote
Greetings:

All 3 of my scooters feature aftermarket cylinders and higher-than-stock compression. I'll take my chances with 10% Ethanol munching the rubber bits and keep using the highest octane I can find. Too bad Ethanol-free isn't rated higher here.
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Granturismo 218
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 6486
Location: NWAOK
Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:57 pm quote
So now someone who is obsessed with ethanol needs to figure out how much ethanol gas is left over in the pump and comes out into your bike before you start getting the ethanol free stuff. At least it goes into the tank first and will burn off right away.
There are people who are obsessed about the amount of regular gas in the pump when they buy premium, and this adds a whole new dimension to that obsession.
Leaded fuel was better than unleaded fuel, better fuel economy, etc, when unleaded fuel came out, or at least that's what a lot of people said.
I find that the people who report big fuel economy differences aren't comparing how their bike runs under the same conditions. I've got a pump where I can get gas without ethanol fairly easily. I can't tell a difference, no matter what I put it in.
Addicted
2010 S50 Modified "Punkin"; 2003 ET4 Malossi 187 "ISO"
Joined: 18 Feb 2017
Posts: 642
Location: Deepinnaharta, Texas
Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:32 pm quote
Greetings:

For the record, I'm not one of the Obsessives. I buy Premium for all 3 of my scooters, and I'm not particularly concerned about 10% Ethanol content, much less the tablespoonful of Regular in the fuel pump nozzle left over from the cheapskate before me filling a rental car. A rental car is pretty much the only time I buy Regular however.

EXCEPTION: A few years back I had a particularly Hot Honda 2-stroke 78cc with a kit from Fabrizi that measured 165PSI. I dared not trust pump gas, and developed a habit of a monthly trip to the local airstrip for 100 Low-Lead, lovingly premixed with Motul Synthetic at 32:1. It lived a long life, and possibly lives still. I swapped this firebrand for a lovely 33-mile Stock SA50 engine when Ms. Wheel-person objected to the Drama of runniing this Fabrizi for local errands.

20141213_105554.jpg

Hooked
2020 GTS 300 HPE
Joined: 27 Sep 2019
Posts: 265
Location: San Francisco
Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:57 pm quote
At least at Maverik, ethanol-free gets its own handle to prevent cross-contamination.
Member
Vespa LX50
Joined: 30 Oct 2020
Posts: 26
Location: Honolulu
Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:07 am quote
We have ethanol free here but it's 89 octane...and it's over $4/gal. Being new to Vespa I decided to start off with ethanol free to see how it ran even though I believe the manual says we should use 91? I ran a few tanks full of that 89 and she ran fine but then I decided to add some octane booster and see if I can tell the difference. I have a few tanks worth of this mix under my belt now and I am not sure I can tell the diff.
Hooked
S150, Beo 500ie
Joined: 14 Aug 2019
Posts: 437
Location: Bermuda
Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:31 am quote
Octane discussions are a huge point of contention and misunderstanding. You can make your own decisions on what to use but keep in mind that the US uses a different formula for specifying octane than the Europeans do, and many manuals display the European calculation methodology.

A reasonable conversion is here:
http://www.pencilgeek.org/2009/05/octane-rating-conversions.html

FWIW, my S150 user’s manual (LEADER engine, carbureted), page 20, specifies “minimum octane rating of 95” and my Scarabeo 500ie manual (MASTER engine, fuel injected), page 77, specifies “minimum octane of 95 (NORM) and 92 (NOMM).” Since 95 octane fuel is not practically available in the US, I presume they mean the European measurement, for which 95 corresponds to a US octane level in the ballpark of 91.

I personally perceive no difference between 87, 89, and 91 octane in either engine.
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GTS250, P200E
Joined: 11 May 2008
Posts: 737
Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:24 am quote
I fixed that for you
Abner_Bjorn wrote:
Modern ROAD-GOING AMD MARINE engines are engineered with ethanol in mind. Anyone who tells you otherwise is pitching snake oil.
Lawn mower, chain saw, weed whipper, leaf blower, snow blower etc. manufacturers are not required to use ethanol-resistant components. There is a reason why some of them did not survive the last recession.

Cheers,
Bob
Resident Grump
MAC Motor, BBSHD. 30 Oct 2006
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 15907
Location: MN
Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:34 pm quote
Abner_Bjorn wrote:
Modern engines are engineered with ethanol in mind. Anyone who tells you otherwise is pitching snake oil.
BS. My snowblower with ethanol free fuel starts every winter with last years fuel. My regular gas motors ALL get varnish and eventually need carb work. A 12 year old blower run on ethanol free never misses a beat and no carb varnish.
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Granturismo 218
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 6486
Location: NWAOK
Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:53 pm quote
Juan_ORhea wrote:
I personally perceive no difference between 87, 89, and 91 octane in either engine.
You would if you wanted to. I think the only time I've really noticed a difference was on a 1100cc air cooled bike going up the grapevine in 105 weather. You can hear the pre-detonation three lanes over.
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BV 350
Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 814
Location: Nebraska
Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:17 am quote
Skirting
Probably skirting the restrictions on politics, if we go into the various reasons we have ethanol gas in the first place. So I will simply say that the ecological credibility of ethanol from corn is highly suspect, the claims for replacing petroleum largely bogus, the whole point of the movement was to generate a market for farmers. While ethanol can absorb a certain amount of water without problems, beyond the limit the ethanol-water mix separates to the bottom of the tank, and it is largely non-combustible. So in high-humidity environments (like boats), ethanol can be a liability.

I have a source for ethanol-free regular for our car, another for ethanol-free premium for my truck, two-wheelers, and lawn equipment. When I fill up the truck I take along a 5-gallon can, fill it after, so no residual ethanol in the hose. All the small engines get fed from the 5-gallon can. Everything that gets stored over the winter either gets run dry (lawn equipment) or full tanks with Sta-bil, but no ethanol.

Probably true that modern engines can withstand ethanol, from a degradation standpoint. Almost without exception, authorities suggest that ethanol fuel has a very short stable lifetime, perhaps a month or two. So long as you keep it fresh, probably not a problem.

Trouble is, many of my engines are old. And it ticks me off a little that suppliers offset the high octane of ethanol by mixing it with low-octane gas, then selling it at only a slight discount.

But it is kinda fun to point out, when the local prudes get up in arms about gas stations selling alcohol to minors, to point out that every gas station sells alcohol to minors. Just mixed in the gas.
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BV 350
Joined: 22 Nov 2016
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Location: Nebraska
Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:44 am quote
On this topic
At the risk of being political, the Trump administration was pretty good about granting waivers for refiners who didn't want to sell ethanol in their gas. Saw that an ethanol-producers association was suing to stop the practice. Haven't seen if the new bosses are pro or con on ethanol. Very possibly the ethanol-free trend may be reversed.
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Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:17 am quote
Re: New To Texas: Non-Ethanol Fuel
Wheelman-111 wrote:
Greetings:

A Brand-New Quikkie-Mart just opened down the block, featuring a fuel pump detail not previously seen here:
I'm assuming you are from San Antonio. Me too.

Murphy's Express has been carrying non-ethanol gas for years. Lucky to have one about 1 mile from the abode.
Addicted
2010 S50 Modified "Punkin"; 2003 ET4 Malossi 187 "ISO"
Joined: 18 Feb 2017
Posts: 642
Location: Deepinnaharta, Texas
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:36 am quote
Greetings:

Occasionally i visit the Alamo City, but live in Coastal Rockport, aka Deepinnaharta. I wondered why the non-ethanol fuel isn't higher octane-rated. I prefer to tane my chances with 10% EtOH and 93 octane, as all my vehicles feature high compression. Computers on my cars tone down timing with knock sensors to compensate for lower octane, with penalties to performance(?) and mileage.
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BV 350
Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 814
Location: Nebraska
Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:46 am quote
Why
If the engine is not designed to require more octane, higher octane is of no use. So refiners generate gas of lower octane, that, with the ethanol added, meets the octane requirements of most production cars.

Evidently it is more expensive to refine gas to a higher octane.

FWIW, E85 is about 105 octane, if you are building racing engines. A much higher compression ratio can realize the performance potential, but of course, can not then be run on regular pump gas.

You can often get by with using lower-octane fuel than a manufacturer specifies, so long as you are easier on the throttle. Engine 'knock' tends to occur under circumstances of high combustion chamber pressure and relatively low engine speed.

If you are not in the habit of running your scooter full-throttle, it will tend to be pretty octane-insensitive. Or so I've heard. Mine tend to see full-throttle a fair amount, so they get what they need.
Grumpy Biker
1980 Vespa P200e (sold), 2002 Vespa ET4 (sold), 1949 Harley-Davidson FL
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 4782
Location: Chandler, Arizona, USA
Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:12 am quote
Re: Why
Jimding wrote:
If the engine is not designed to require more octane, higher octane is of no use. So refiners generate gas of lower octane, that, with the ethanol added, meets the octane requirements of most production cars.

Evidently it is more expensive to refine gas to a higher octane.

FWIW, E85 is about 105 octane, if you are building racing engines. A much higher compression ratio can realize the performance potential, but of course, can not then be run on regular pump gas.

You can often get by with using lower-octane fuel than a manufacturer specifies, so long as you are easier on the throttle. Engine 'knock' tends to occur under circumstances of high combustion chamber pressure and relatively low engine speed.

If you are not in the habit of running your scooter full-throttle, it will tend to be pretty octane-insensitive. Or so I've heard. Mine tend to see full-throttle a fair amount, so they get what they need.
+1

One of the big misconceptions is that higher octane fuel provides more power. In reality, it only provides more power if your car takes advantage of it by advancing timing, ramping up the turbo charger boost pressure, etc. My car has a sensor that detects the ethanol % and will adjust timing and turbo boost pressure accordingly. This is how I can get +90hp running E85.

-Craig
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