Modern Vespa

Hi,

Hoping i can get some advice from nyc/nj riders.

short version - Is it possible to get out the city while avoiding major freeways/long windy bridges?



long version

I am looking into getting a gts 300 with the hope to use it to get out of the city - day trips in the short term, working towards a longer trips possibly to see family in ohio. I don't typically drive and if i do its just in brooklyn/queens - so even after 10+ yrs in nyc I have no familiarity with how to drive out of the city.

Is getting out of the city possible while avoiding major freeways/long windy bridges?

Looking at google maps - looks like the best option to cross the hudson are the tunnels, but getting out of NJ towards PA or upstate NY seems to require freeways.

I'm a new rider planing for msf course btwn now and spring. Crossing the east river bridges doesn't seem like an issue. I cross them regularly on my bicycle - which is not the same, but makes me familiar w the length and wind.

background (probably not necessary)
Years ago I was wanting to get a scooter but with out off street parking, I couldn't make it make sense to me.

After trying the revel scooters, I again have the itch to get a scooter. Combine that w the pandemic limiting travel options - It feels like a scooter could be worth having. Talking to the sales person at the bk vespa dealership - the revel scooters - and all 50cc scooters - cant cross the east river because they are too slow. So that led me to 150cc, but I'd rather not be looking for a new scooter in a year - as ppl typically do from their first motorcycle. So on to the 300 it is - which also makes me think about it being useful to get out of the city.

But, if i cant get out of the city without a full freeway driving this is probably a non starter. I am also working at home, so no daily commute means owning a scooter could quickly become more time spent parking it/moving it for street cleaning than riding it.

Best bet is to take the tunnels into Jersey and you can get off the highway and onto streets right out of the tunnels. Google maps has a setting to avoid highways on routes. But it will take a while to get further out west that way.

I suggest taking the msf course then riding into Manhattan over the bridges or through the battery tunnel a bunch to get used to driving in highway. Like everything it gets easier and more confident with practice. My first year of riding on vintage i just rode around city streets avoiding highways as i got used to being in traffic at speed. After a while you take routes you were less comfortable with originally and sooner or later you have no problem with anything. With a 300 you should have no problem keeping up with traffic. It's not that bad once you get used to riding on the highways. Only time is tricky is some of the highway exits at various points all around nyc require prior knowledge of their location so that you prep for being in the right lane in order to not have to cut across 5 lanes of traffic last minute. Also helps to know those routes from driving in cars as well so you study the pot holes and hazards.

Most of my riding in and around the city is memorizing hazards to avoid and planning well in advance for them. Pot holes, construction, etc are things you really don't want to be taken by surprise on a scooter. Also fair warning people will not give you physical space for safety. Drive like everyone is trying to kill you at all times and you will be fine. That last one is less of a problem on my vintage cause it's loud as all hell so people know I'm coming or am around then. The autos are more silent and people won't see you as easily. The 300 is a better choice cause you have ample speed and acceleration for those times you need it to get away from risky situations. If you are on a scooter whose at it's max speed just barely keeping up with traffic on the highway you are basically at the mercy of everyone around you to see you and avoid you. On a 300 you can avoid other people as well and will become you are more actively anticipating the terrible driving of everyone around you than they are of you.

Revel scooters are garbage and definitely too slow for highway. Lower displacement scooters are like a slow moving target the fast moving targets aren't expecting and don't have enough time to avoid. Fast moving scooters are just part of the traffic. Glad they got you looking to purchase a real scooter but that's about all they are good for. Kinda insane they allow anyone to rent one cause you need a motorcycle license to ride any other scooter and it's definitely a skill you want practice at before throwing inexperienced people into the fire of nyc streets with.

Last edited by swiss1939 on Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:55 am; edited 1 time in total

Thanks.

Yeah, its hard to tell looking at google maps, even with the avoid highways options, it still looks like to get out of north jersey will req highways - its not clear which ones are 45mph ish vs 60+.

I've been biking in city traffic for over 10years so I'm familiar with how cars/taxis etc treat non cars and have a sense of traffic flow here.

And yes, route familiarity i expect to be my biggest challenge. Even in area's i know well - navigating like a car is very different than on my bicycle.

re revels - After reading the https://dmv.ny.gov/driver-training/motorcycle-manual-motorcycle-safety-program it feels like revel is a bit crazy for letting people ride without reading this - even if the rider doesn't get a lic

Yes there will be times you cannot avoid highways getting out of nyc but you can get off them as soon as it's not necessary anymore. And lots of those non highway streets in Jersey are still busy and fast moving roads like rt 3 which the Lincoln tunnel feeds into on way out to Jersey. The tunnel traffic isn't moving incredibly fast anyways most times so you can get off before you end up on the turnpike or something like that which i would advise against until you are ready.

A regular user on here, amateriat, is a Jersey commuter into the city and would be a better person to talk to about this cause i don't ride into Jersey only occasionally drive my truck to Jersey.

But i will suggest taking the msf course on Staten island at csi because it's less busy and from what i hear much easier to get through. I did it a couple years ago and it was only two days easy stuff on small Harley's provided by the school. I've heard the wait list for this stuff in Brooklyn is way too long.

Last edited by swiss1939 on Sat Dec 26, 2020 12:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

awesome. thank you.

re: Revel.. yeah they have been in trouble quite a bit cause multiple people have died riding them since introduced into nyc. Its a bad combination of inexperienced riders with crazy drivers/taxis. Kinda like how it was after citi bike started up. All of a sudden everyone and their mother was riding bikes in the city instead of just crazy people like us who knew how to ride in traffic and which routes to avoid cause they are just too damn dangerous. All those casual riders who hadn't ridden a bike since moving to NYC started sunday riding citi bikes down 42nd street like it was cape cod oblivious to the fact that they chose the busiest damn road in all of manhattan and busses aint gonna be slowed down by no poor little defenseless citi bike! Not a smart move.

Now is a different story given all the protected bike lanes you can get around relatively safely if you are just sight seeing and not commuting like a beast. Same with Revel.. they had the law come down on them and are slowly changing their system to at least make people do some sort of bare minimum "training" before they hop on one of them.

Had you ever considered the BV 350. I started out on the GTS300, which was fine, but I felt unstable on the Vespa with the 12"wheels on the highway. After reading a couple of posts on here about the BV, I went back to the dealer & ended up with the BV. The pluses were larger wheels, more power, more attractive price, & less worry about rust to the exterior.
I now have almost 1,000 miles on the scooter & it has been great. pleasure to ride. Easy handling, plenty of power. My only regret was that I didn't buy this scooter first.

I did look at some reviews of the BV 350.

My goals for longer trips or even day trips are probably cart before the horse.
I actually trying to avoid the freeway - but seems unavoidable in certain locations at least for small stretches. Not sure how long it take me to be comfortable at speed higher than 30.

I expect most of my riding to be in the city, at the start for sure and trying to avoid the enviable first year upgrade from a starter bike. The 300 seems like a bit more than i need at first, but not so low powered I'll be wanting something faster - unless i switch to a full motorcycle after ... but not sure I'll be doing that either.


I'm still on the fence because I'll be parking on the street. The very limited off street parking near me will cost more than the bike - which makes it not work it for me.

Look into storage unit for parking. Like a cube smart or something. Granted that only works if it's close to you. But i see plenty of people owning and parking scooters on the streets in Brooklyn. As long as you lock it up.

IMO you can’t solve for “I’m basically a nondriver seeking to avoid the freeways out of NYC” and “want to visit family in Ohio someday” with the same skillset, mindset, or machine. You’ll never get to a decision - which, in its own way, is a decision, I guess.

I would recommend getting your M license, a 150-200cc machine, and seeing over the course of a year or two how far you want to push it before deciding whether something larger would really be useful to you, and in what form that would take (scooter, motorcycle, or rental car).

It is absolutely possible to get 250 miles outside of NY without traveling on 55+mph interstate highways, assuming that’s what you mean by “freeways.” I’ve done that myself on a 150cc and it was fun - as an adventure. I went west through the Lincoln Tunnel, through the Poconos to Ithaca, and came back east over the Bear Mountain Bridge. I followed Google Maps with the “avoid highways” option checked, and no road had over a 50mph speed limit.

Whether that’s truly what you’d want to do once you get a little experience under your belt, or whether I would do it again myself, is another question.

When I’m in the US, here’s my 25.5 mile commute from Westchester to Battery Park City via the Bronx River Parkway, Cross County Parkway, and Hudson River/West Side highways. This particular timelapse was taken on a 460cc scooter (nice for the larger wheels) but I do it just as often on my 150 (nice for the lighter weight) - same speed either way, rarely if ever hitting 55mph. If this looks feasible there is nothing stopping you from going anywhere between Boston and DC while avoiding interstates.

“https://youtu.be/jsH3EAjOPyo”

(Amateriat’s commute from NJ is farther, and different: he takes the interstates.)

But ... What boring routes ... There doesn't seem to be much traffic.
Rome and its roads to get there are a real hell.

So sorry for the off-topic post, but building on Attila's comment and Juan_ORhea's vid:

It's just that the contrast on Juan's vid and my short recording from 2 months ago is like... well, like do we live in the same planet?

These are the kind of roads I typically ride. Mainly sweeping eyes for deers, moose, foxes and such, cars are more a rarity

To add to the contrasts, I'm riding a low revving twin, so it sounds almost like on iddle while doing ~50mph....no piano music, as I'm a sucker for that old fashioned purrr.

Good luck to the OP, take it easy and learn gradually as the good visdom have been shared.

https://youtu.be/A0KN-LQJ0Uk

Apart from better roads it seems to be in Italy. I've decided, i'm going to live in Finland.

Getting out of NYC is complex in comparison to London. It is easy to go from central London to countryside without hitting any major road or bridge.

Be cool to have a thread of videos of local rides!

Indeed! I want to move to Finland too! Or at least visit. Well, that was part of the point of my vid to the OP. Nobody rides the NYC arteries for the scenery, but getting out of the city is straightforward. But there is plenty to see nearby...next fall hopefully I’ll ride again over the Bear Mountain Bridge crossing the Hudson in foliage season; it is quite spectacular.

Regarding my vid:
* my GoPro doesn’t deal with engine sound, or really any audio, well at all in its little plastic box. Thus the jazzy piano overdub.
* during rush hour, the trip takes up to 90 minutes, making an even more boring video. This trip took 50 minutes, and my record is 38 minutes (June, COVID lockdown, 6am - still only 40mph average speed). Heavy traffic isn’t more hectic; it’s less!
* what I find remarkable is that one can make a round trip into lower NYC on less than a gallon of gas, under $4 in tolls, and park for free on the street. Mass transit costs $24 for that round trip, and takes a consistent 75 minutes; parking a car costs $35.

And that is why i bought a vespa. My commute by public transportation from one borough to another only 15 miles is 1.5-2 hrs each way. My commute prior to wfh covid on Vespa was 40 minutes max during rush hour. My truck costs 60 to park. My scooter parks for free.

Yes, you can get out of NYC via small bridges and while avoiding major highways. For example you can cross into the Bronx and take local roads from there, or as others have mentioned the East River Bridges followed by the Hudson River tunnels are an option as well.

Both options include riding through Manhattan and even with moderate traffic that usually isn’t quick, so take that into account. The closest Hudson River crossing to me is the Holland Tunnel and if I head to New Jersey in that general direction I will use that tunnel.

More often though when I am heading to points North in New York State or Northern NJ where there’s a lot of great roads, I end up taking the BQE to the Triboro Bridge and then the Harlem River Drive to the GW bridge. A 300cc range bike such as the GTS 300 is perfectly capable of that. While I wouldn’t recommend learning how to ride on NYC highways, once you have plenty practice I am sure that you will find that it is even fun to take the highways for short trips. Bridges such as the Triboro, GWB and the Verrazano are perfectly fine to cross as well. I’ve done so in heavier wind and find that it just takes more attention, slower speeds and general experience helps as well to feel secure doing so. Most of the time the traffic will move at speeds lower than the posted speed limits anyway.

To sum it up: I often (but not always) take the highways within New York City for my trips outside the city limits, then I will get on smaller roads were the real fun is. This combination leaves me plenty of time for long rides. Maybe that’s not the best way to start, but once you are confident in the riding abilities, it’s definitely an option.

Attila, I hear you, but the New York City roads also feel like a special gate to the underworld and it many people seem to lack the proper instructions to be out in public with a four-wheeler. At least they don’t appear to be even trying to drive safely.

Attila's also basing his opinion off of the most casual/easiest/most sight seeing commute into and out of the city. Try riding from LI into the city through either northern or southern routes. Or coming from South Jersey into Manhattan by way of the turnpike and Jersey tunnels. Or going from SI into Connecticut through the BQE and 678. There are plenty of chaotic highways around here. Granted I would prefer not to ride a Vespa on some of them. I'm fine with my SI to Manhattan route over the Verrazano, BQE and through the battery tunnel up the west side highway. Its fun and just chaotic enough, but you also got the express lane to skip most of the traffic during rush hour.

There are better ways to go and there are faster ways to go. And most times you choose a mix of both to get where you gotta go as safely as possible while not taking all day. One commute that I hate in a car and would probably hate even more is from SI to Queensboro Community College where I've done some film work by way of Belt Pkwy and Cross Island Pkwy to 495. Might make it faster than the miserable crawl in a car, but a brutal ride on a scooter with small wheels due to the condition of the roads and how angry the other drivers are.

Thank you. That is what i was trying to figure out.

The point about getting some miles under my belt first - is very true. Even watching videos, its hard to judge without any really riding time. I wanted to get a reality check before i started got too far. Even with the "avoid freeways" option in google maps, its not clear if its actually avoiding 55+mph freeways. Amazingly specific. thank you.

I've driven (i know not the same) city freeways in chicago and brooklyn/queens - so at least in a car im ok on them. So, its a matter of learning to ride - and learning the routes i would need to take once i get to that point. The Triboro, GWB and the Verrazano bridges seem tricky. But came accross a mc video going from brooklyn to storm king highway though via the holland tunnel and most of the route google maps suggested.

That ride once you get past hoboken looks really nice and the view is killer.

In the city - most traffic is pretty hectic and reason enough for me to question any transportation that isn't a bicycle or subway.

I am still kinda thinking that for getting around in the city, a scooter will just push me to get back on my bicycle - except for longer trips - like to the beach or to get out of the city.

I love to ride scooters and other motorcycles in this city. You might like it too.

Believe me ... ask those of you on the forum who rented a scooter and drove around Rome (or worse ... Naples). It's hell multiplied by 1000!

-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iyxEFFrT8E-

-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlMkM-9ZMmY-

And here's a regular traffic day riding into Manhattan - NYC, not for the faint of heart either. I think it's a big city thing no matter where. Also: that lane sharing that you see here isn't exactly legal, though many of us do it anyway.

-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6VfEB6DS0o

That person’s driving habits and illegal lane splitting are what make that video look hectic. Following the traffic rules would make a boring video.

I think filtering in NYC is a lot easier than London because pedestrians in NYC tend to be more orderly and cross at junctions when the green man comes on. In London they walk in between stationary cars at any point. There are a lot of Youtubers that are masters at filtering like Royal Jordanian, Beans on Toast, premises187. Watch some of their videos.

Agreed on the tunnel: I commute via GWB but it's not crosswindy. Sometimes, in the Fall, I take lower level and it is a bit crosswindy. Otherwise, no issues. Upper level not bad at all. Then again, I'm commuting with a BV, bigger wheels. Not sure what it's like (or if you're allowed on the GWB) with a smaller bike, but, not windy. You should join the NYC Vespa Club; they do Vespa rides. Hit me up if you ever want to meet!

-K

@Karlsbadd thanks. Think i saw somewhere, that the min wheel size is something like 16" which is the size of the 12" wheels + tires. (dont quote me, that is rough memory).

Need to do msf. Planning to get that booked in the next week.

Has the NYC Vespa Club moved mainly to FB? I'm one of the last 3 people who aren't on FB. Wayyyy past the point of ever wanting to join. - beyond my instagram accounts (facepalm).

Instagram, “NYCVespaClub”

Well…hi, there.

When I started my forays into Gotham/NYC (some two years-plus after getting my GTS 300), I had a few advantages: first, having been born and raised in Manhattan, then migrating to Brooklyn for another 25 years or so, I knew the lay of the land; in addition, most of my 40-odd adult years in the city were experienced as an avid cyclist, both commuting (way before that became A Thing, and with next-to-no cyclist-friendly infrastructure to speak of at first), and recreation, so I had quite a bit of experience dealing with motorists. Yes, taking Melody out on the Garden State Parkway and New Jersey Turnpike for the very first time was, you might say character-building. But the beauty of the GTS is that it can mix it up with nearly everything: from econoboxes to 18-wheelers, you get used to this stuff with time, practice and, most important, patience: don't go out into the mix more than you're comfortable with at a given point. (I've put out a few posts about riding semi-long-distance on the GTS: The Grand Poobah of long-distance riding, Quezzie - a/k/a Stephanie Yue - is the Vespa superheroine of damned near everybody here, boldly going where no Vespisti has gone before. But that's another tale for another time.)

Yes, you can keep your time on the big, fast roads to a minimum, but you can't totally avoid them: the tunnels are okay, but they bring their own challenges: with the Holland Tunnel, once you exit on the Jersey side, you'll find a rather challenging route just to get to the Turnpike (even more interesting at night); the Lincoln Tunnel is perhaps more challenging, with a fair deal of over/underpasses in need of repair, and drivers who seem to think this is no big deal to drive fast through.

When I think about it, the bridges are actually a saner route, not to mention far more picturesque. But I need to qualify this: by "bridges", I'm basically talking about two: The Verazzano-Narrows and George Washington Bridges. The Verazzano is my true gateway into Gotham, usually twice-weekly, virtually year-round. It has its challenges, but they're largely predictable. The upper level is decent most of the time (November through January gets rather windy, though); the lower level is generally better. (Hot tip: you're allowed, as a two-wheeler, to use the HOV lanes on all bridges and approaches throughout the trip-state area. Use Them.)

There are some nice secondary roads here in NJ, but you have to get out a bit to find them. (Some have pointed out Rte 35, but that's a bit too stop-and-go for me to actually enjoy.) I'm going to be exploring more of the state in the new year - no place else to go in the meantime, right? - and I'll be writing these up here as I discover them. Also: Upstate NY has some seriously-nice roads I'll be exploring as well.

And: Yes, a GTS, IMO, is absolutely the ticket to enjoy all this. I've had mine for a bit over five years, and I still love the thing to bits. If, for whatever reason, I had to replace it, I wouldn't hesitate to get another one. And the farther I travel with it, the stronger my affinity with this bike is.

But, I could be a tad crazy.


Atlantic Highlands, the highest point in New Jersey. (In the distance, far, far down, is Sandy Hook.)

Hey man. Yeah, probably. But I'm on here and there and if when they do a ride I am happy to let you know. They let me tag along even though I don't have a vespa. But it seemed funny to me that one of the organizers was like, "Sorry this is for Vespa" was surprised to hear that Piaggio makes Vespa. She did not seem to have a great understanding of the relationship. Regardless, they rode to a nice brewery this summer, and another one later. Did a few fall rides too. Just shoot me a message here if anything, or if you want to meet up separately. I'm always down for a nice ride off-highway.

I rode my Xmax up to Brooklyn in 2019.

There, I picked up my daughter and we headed out of town to Hunter for the first night.

Our route took us over the Manhattan Bridge and under the Hudson River inside the Holland Tunnel.

In New Jersey, we hugged the Hudson River for the first 80 miles heading north, taking secondary roads.

We had a nice lunch in Piermont.

Even with her on board, I never felt uncomfortable riding in the city.

Looking at the map, the biggest issue getting out of town is crossing the rivers. The Holland Tunnel was not an issue at all.

Bill


Crossing the Hudson in the Holland Tunnel.

My riding partner for a wonder five day ride through New England, ending in Portland, ME.

News from Rome traffic (only available on Facebook):

https://www.facebook.com/1056903015/videos/10220235172483622/

Yamaha Tricity 155.