CM's 57 Allstate Resto-Mod
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Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2575
Location: London UK
Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:35 pm quote
Biggest carb that will go on a 200 rotary, when fully dremelled out, is a 30mm. Any bigger carb will obviously still run but won't make any difference over a 30mm. That being said an SI26/26 doesn't have a manifold, so equivalent to a 28mm sidedraft at least. Bigger carbs just have better acceleration and as this is of less concern on a sidecar engine, SI26/26 will be plenty I'm sure. As said autolube an added bonus.

One of the quattrinies would be well suited but all the faff with cranks, machining and the ever growing bill, just won't be enough better than the MHR. And as this gsf, probably less at the top and could be slower.

Whatever way you decide, it's going to be interesting.
Member
Vespa T5 251, Lambretta GP200
Joined: 27 Jul 2019
Posts: 23
Location: Leeds, England
Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:46 pm quote
I think the bigger the carb the more you lose low to mid range power. Smaller venturis with increased flow velocity definitely help low down. Bigger is not always better.
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x 2), 74 Primavera (x 2), 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5579
Location: So Cal
Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:05 am quote
This ^
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1248
Location: California
Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:23 am quote
I would rotary valve, Si carb and look into look into these cranks thanks swiss1939 for bringing them to my attention think the mass of the crank is helpful for thumping.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/long-stroke-crankshaft-sip-premium_45021510

10 inch highway 8 inch street
Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2974
Location: Nashville
Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:58 am quote
I lost the source, but here's the calculation for carb size I found once upon a time and which has served me well:
Quote:
carb diameter= K x (square root of (engine cc x(peak power rpm/1000)).

"K" for piston port engines is .9, andaround .8 for reed valve engines.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2575
Location: London UK
Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:13 pm quote
So we're all on the same page with carb size. Correct carb size for a 221 is about 35mm sidedraft. 30mm would be smaller to be smoother. SI2626 gets credit for no manifold. Hence it is the ideal carb for the job. CM would have to make an autolube tank to fit in somewhere though.
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1404
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:32 pm quote
I figured it would be another smart carb, since he has experience with one.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1979
Location: california
Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:34 am quote
Quote:
SI26/26 will be plenty I'm sure
. Who ever stole Jack's computer - please give it back - need his input. No time for playing.
Quote:
autolube an added bonus.
At first I was thinking no way - but struck me I might be able to come with a solution with refillable bottle or even a diaphragm that is accessed by the old carb door. So... Maybe.

Chatted with Ginch's mate. He struggled with the 232 Quattrini on rotary - pinging - moved to reeds and solved. That has me a little concerned - but I see others that seem to be fine.

Additional: Read some GSF posts - I can never figure out how I even found the page - just happy when the translated discussion appears relevant to my search!
One comment I saw noted that many there found the Quattrini to be happier with more sedate timings. Some of these guys seem to be on rotary and fine - best I can tell...

Saw MJ Rally was posting on a 28MM SI. If I was going SI - why not gargantua 28? Not like I have a 26 on the shelf.

After reading Jack's comments on PIA of grinding cases - did a little searching. Turns out SIP offers a crank that will run with the Quattrinni 244 kit (60mm stroke) - and you don't have to grind your cases out.

Bonus: (Jack - your gonna like this bit), is that it comes with a 127 connecting rod - rather than a 126 like the Quattrinni. Thats kinda like putting a 57mm kit on a 60MM crank so you can play more with timing (I think?)
SIP crank comes in two version - one with longer timings.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/long-stroke-crankshaft-sip-performance_45021710?q=sip%20127mm%20connecting%20rod%20crank

So to go full thumping screamer - I'm now thinking:
M244 with 60MM stroke set up with SIP 127MM rod 60mm crank - with elongated timings - and SI 28? Can I get an Amen?
Think this would be the simple solution more inline with cost/level of work of the Malossi 210 - but with more CC's for low end.

Christopher - On these old scoots - not sure if I can cram a side draft in. But I was able to convert the smart carb to work on 45 and I have been working on my TIG welding - so maybe I could concoct an custom intake without having to cut a hole in the cowl. That said - I am not totally above cutting a hole in my cowl. Thing is rotted through and will require some welding in any event. 🙂. Carb - still for discussion.

IMG_9469.JPG
Tig welding on pyramid thingy I built for practice. Happy.

IMG_9468.JPG
Almost looks like proper welding.

IMG_9467.JPG
Reality of what most my TIG welds still look like... have a lot to learn.

Screen Shot 2021-01-06 at 1.25.05 AM.png
Specs on the longer timing version - do we like?

131989630_407540710393184_475866717593915435_n.jpg
Ginch's mates 260 Quattrini with 30PBH. (244 kit with 62mm stroke and all sorts of grinding out of cases).

Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2575
Location: London UK
Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:40 pm quote
Plan coming together nicely. Looking like a quattrini 244 then. A solid choice. Sure everyone will be interested to see one set up properly.

Ouch. Crank expensive but ideal. No machining and 1mm fudge room to optimise. Going to be worth it.
Base filling and matching is more on the quattrini but no big deal.

28/28 is a nice idea but they are only premix. 26/26 comes in both varieties (and cheaper). Either will set up fine on rotary.
Autolube is the big bonus. Engine gets lubed better and quick pit stops.

Will be quite some machine. Your tig welding will be expert level once that frame is fit for the road.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1979
Location: california
Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:18 pm quote
Quote:
28/28 is a nice idea but they are only premix. 26/26 comes in both varieties
shame - tough call on which I would more value.

Space is really at a premium under the cowls/body - I think? I figure an SI - perhaps even mounted directly with no air box if need be - could get the job done.

I also made another decision - which is to go with the V-one cases.
Once I have put in a new:
Crank, 8"hub, DC Vape, Cyl kit, gearing to hit ratios that work, EFL shaft - the only thing I would be re-using from the P200 motor would be the cases.
V-ones are going for about $800 - so once I include shipping - I might as well just go with new cases that are already nicely reinforced.
Much appreciate the option tho Jim!
A certain other CM will be the proud new owner of that P200 motor.

As for V-one's, I assume they also have the inlet optimized?
Moved forward closer to cylinder?
Able to be opened more?
Malossi don't say much other than: "the supply has nevertheless been revised and implemented thanks to our modern CAD systems which have profiled an intake pipe into the optimized crankcase"

A reed version of course is in my ruminations.
The guys running reads seam to be tuning for 30-40 HP with 244.
The guys tuning for rotary seem to be closer to 20-25 with same.
So there is a big drop.

Challenge I (think) I have is fitting this under the cowl.
Reed looks like it would add significant height.
Also - need to find someone who has the 244 for sale - seams SIP and SC are out.
Comments?

Edit - pics below.

13625907294_e77ba0fb26.jpg
Reed block ok when used with GS wideframe cowls? seems so - suspect with older allstate cowls - there may be interference issues

15316394444_1b99a54016.jpg
These cowls look substantially larger than the ones on the allstate to my eye

Moderator
VNB VSC VBC VSX
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 4625
Location: Hustletown, TX
Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:49 pm quote
Swoon! ... yeah, allstate cowls are probably a touch smaller, but probably not too much,

Last edited by Birdsnest on Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2586
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:55 pm quote
Jealous already.
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1588
Location: UK (South East)
Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:45 pm quote
The VR-One (reed) would be my preference, as you get to use the stronger flywheel side crank bearing, similar or same as a T5. This is additional strengthening that would make sense if you can accommodate a reed block and big carb
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1979
Location: california
Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:25 am quote
SWA -
Didn't realize they only put the full sealed bearing type on the "R" version.

With the scoot off for beed blasting, I cant get a close look at this question.
Perhaps someone else reading this has some experience with the Allstate /struzzo models cowl clearance.

I think no matter - I may need to indent the chassis in that area - but I should be able to do a nice job - prior to paint - and it falls under the cowl.

thanks for the input/info.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2575
Location: London UK
Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:49 am quote
Seems to boil down to this; If going sidedraft, then reed casings are the only choice. If not and rotary casings SI26/26 with autolube. One or the other.

Reed with a proper big carb (like mine) definitely preferred for the biggest smile. Just the noise opening up a 38mm to full torque is enough justification.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1979
Location: california
Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:56 am quote
Quote:
Seems to boil down to this; If going sidedraft, then reed casings are the only choice. If not and rotary casings SI26/26 with autolube. One or the other.

Reed with a proper big carb (like mine) definitely preferred for the biggest smile. Just the noise opening up a 38mm to full torque is enough justification.
^ good way to look at it.
Doing homework on fit as I ponder what I prefer to optimize for - but know I am only going through the motions... will make what ever fit - once I am certain of performance.

Question to the crowd: is there a Quattrini reliable source other than SIP/SC that I might find an available kit from?
Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2974
Location: Nashville
Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:14 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Question to the crowd: is there a Quattrini reliable source other than SIP/SC that I might find an available kit from?
This. If the kit can't be sourced, the rest of this post is academic.

I'll get my own build thread going once I have motor in hand and a build going, but in the meantime can you clarify where you have to machine the cases to fit a 244 on a P200? Is it "just" taking a mm off the fly side to give the crank adequate clearance?

Personally, I think I'd go full-on crazy and to the 244 with a bell crank, reeds, and a beefy PWK carb, but the bell crank w/ 127mm conn rod is not going to be available until November 2022.

So I either get to assemble the comparable crankshaft by buying the long rod and (probably) finding a shop that can build it for me or just doing a milder build with a Malossi top end in the meantime.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8055
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:47 pm quote
I don't think the 244 needs to be crazy... I'd prefer just a solid tourer that can pull a railway carriage. Check out https://www.vespmoto.de/ and have a look at his setups and videos.

LTH have it 'within 15-17 days' - https://www.lambretta-teile.de/Cylinder-kit-244cc-Quattrini-M244-60mm-stroke-Vespa-PX200-Rally-200. Marco is very helpful (though never as quick as SIP or SCK) so I would get in contact and ask him... it's nice to speak directly to the owner. Plus he'll get you anything from either of those places to add to your order - no need to place an order at two different places and pay for two lots of shipping.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1979
Location: california
Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:03 pm quote
Quote:
can you clarify where you have to machine the cases to fit a 244 on a P200? Is it "just" taking a mm off the fly side to give the crank adequate clearance?
. I believe it requires a 1mm larger diameter on fly side of cases for the quattrini crank. *however - its possible there is a bell crank with 126mm (min needed) rod that fits without this? It is only Quattrini's crank that has the oversized diameter. Perhaps other's know of some options - I'd be tempted to put sand paper on an old crank and figure out how to spin it... 🙂, but take warning from my other 57+ pages...
Quote:
I'd prefer just a solid tourer that can pull a railway carriage
I know y'all THINK you don't need a sidecar - but no need to call it a railway carriage.
Quote:
LTH have it 'within 15-17 days'
Was hopeful someone could come through on this one. Many thanks! Know you have posted about Marco before - but I had not equated LTH (which I thought was an exhaust) with your guy in Italy(?). Remember - I am still relatively new - and tho my WOT approach has been effective for learning quickly - there are still holes in my base knowledge that you could drive, well, a railway carriage through. 🙂

Thanks!
Woulda been in "arriving soon" netherworld of SIP otherwise for the next who knows how many months.
Lurker
Joined: 09 Jan 2021
Posts: 2
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:06 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
My electric plan would utilize gears - if I went that way - I would want a highway legit screamer that would be happy to cruise at 65. This build however, will get there with gas and oil.
CM, apologies if this is a bit of a hijack, but where'd you get to with research on this idea? When I saw this thread I was really hoping you were going to do all the groundwork for us on this, as I know you toyed with the idea early days for the unicorn

I saw Resistors thread on his '61, but the top speed (32 mph) and range (30 miles) were hardly inspiring. I'm aware of the Retrospectivescooters kit, but interested if there's other options available.

Cam.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1979
Location: california
Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:28 pm quote
Nevada - no trouble.
Resistor blazed the early trail - and has given some input and learnings to Jim.
Jim is working on a "next iteration" with his project currently - assume you have seen here: First Scooter, not my first project. (Now going electric!)
His will be a larger watt hub motor with higher voltage.
72 volts will take his closer to 50MPH I believe.
Not too shabby.

I've got an electric in my future - but this project isn't the one.
This one will be a two stroke thumper.

If you are interested in geared - The cleanest solution I have seen is on FMP's YouTube sight.
The guy got rid of the fly side of the case, and simply use a thick piece of aluminum - where he also mounted the electric motor.
Quite ingenious in its simplicity if you as me.
Here is a video of it.
From what I see/hear - first gear is still basically useless.
I am not sure how large a final drive you could get to - but my thinking was to go with a 11" rim with full size tire and the lowest gearing available.

The most expensive bit is actually the battery.
From what I can tell - Jim is having one custom built from someone in the Bike community. This is a burgeoning area. Post over there and perhaps he can share some info on cost and power for those interested - as he is doing some good learning for us all.

Cheers
-CM
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8055
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:04 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Quote:
LTH have it 'within 15-17 days'
Was hopeful someone could come through on this one. Many thanks! Know you have posted about Marco before - but I had not equated LTH (which I thought was an exhaust) with your guy in Italy(?). Remember - I am still relatively new - and tho my WOT approach has been effective for learning quickly - there are still holes in my base knowledge that you could drive, well, a railway carriage through. 🙂

Thanks!
Woulda been in "arriving soon" netherworld of SIP otherwise for the next who knows how many months.
My guy in Germany. The Germans will deduct their local taxes - because VAT type taxes are not required to be collected if the item is for use outside the EU.
The Italians however... well so far I haven't found one seller who can be bothered to take off the 22%. And of course you still need to pay sales tax and import duty when it arrives in the country.
Molto Verboso
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1946
Location: Florence, OR
Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:44 pm quote
Dang, I'm unplugged for a week and you've already got this thing planned out! Awesome! I've got nothing to contribute, except that I'm back to watching and learning
Lurker
Joined: 09 Jan 2021
Posts: 2
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:49 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Nevada - no trouble.
Resistor blazed the early trail - and has given some input and learnings to Jim.
Jim is working on a "next iteration" with his project currently - assume you have seen here: First Scooter, not my first project. (Now going electric!)
His will be a larger watt hub motor with higher voltage.
72 volts will take his closer to 50MPH I believe.
Not too shabby.

I've got an electric in my future - but this project isn't the one.
This one will be a two stroke thumper.

If you are interested in geared - The cleanest solution I have seen is on FMP's YouTube sight.
The guy got rid of the fly side of the case, and simply use a thick piece of aluminum - where he also mounted the electric motor.
Quite ingenious in its simplicity if you as me.
Here is a video of it.

From what I see/hear - first gear is still basically useless.
I am not sure how large a final drive you could get to - but my thinking was to go with a 11" rim with full size tire and the lowest gearing available.

The most expensive bit is actually the battery.
From what I can tell - Jim is having one custom built from someone in the Bike community. This is a burgeoning area. Post over there and perhaps he can share some info on cost and power for those interested - as he is doing some good learning for us all.

Cheers
-CM
That's great CM, I do like the idea of it being geared (higher top speed, and feel like less of a toy!), but Jim's laying out some great detail on his build (Thanks Jim!) which makes the hub drive tempting. All good desktop research for me at this stage.

Now, from that diversion, we can now get back to our regular programming. As you were...
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1979
Location: california
Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:12 pm quote
Thanks for checking in gents.
Have some travel for the next week - so scoot is on hold.
Craig- for the love of god - check your FB message. 🙂
Assembling my parts list while I travel - of course.
-CM
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 324
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:54 am quote
Was busy skydiving and away from FB. PM sent.

Travel safe

C.
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 x2 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7999
Location: seattle/athens
Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:02 pm quote
Gt6MK3 wrote:
Was busy skydiving and away from FB. PM sent.

Travel safe

C.
Got any pics?

Confucius say
Quote:
"When big bad lockdown come,
vicarious thrill better than none."
Fall safe

T
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1979
Location: california
Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:02 am quote
Voodoo - was wondering when you might visit these parts.
Found and read through your's and GLscoot
Pretty good discussion/ examples on carb placement and P2 motor install on wireframe.
ACMA. From vietnamese home made to russian custom)
Vespa GS150 (1959)

Also came across this - which some of you may recall.
Kinda show stopping in it's pure fabrication quality.
ACMA. From vietnamese home made to russian custom)
What caught my eye - and search - was the subframe - which is basically what I had in mind - though I have different plans on how I would tie it in.
His seams to have accessed through the top of the frame as well for some reason that I don't anticipate, and... a flip up back half - which is also not on my list. Gracious.

Have a look.

1_628.jpg
Subframe shown in bottom right corner pic

Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4576
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:03 am quote
not sure how I missed this whole thread so far, looks like I've been spending too much time away from MV. Will be following closely!
Rallies Europe 2016   vespa scooterwest scooter west Motorsport Scooters   AF1 Racing Vespa Austin
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