Bleeding brakes on BV350
Post Reply    Forum -> General Discussion
Author Message
Ossessionato
BV350, Primavera 150, Yamaha Zuma 125
Joined: 06 Jun 2013
Posts: 3287
Location: The Twin Cities of Minneapolis/Saint Paul, Minnesota
Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:43 pm quote
I've been trying to bleed the brakes on my BV350, using the vacuum (Mity-Vac) method. Any way I try, I seem to suck more air than fluid out of the caliper bleeder. I'm keeping the reservoir filled; no air is getting in there. Yet, I can never get to the point of having pressure at the brake lever. So far, I've been working on the rear brake only.

My suspicion is that air is leaking around the threads of the bleeder screw whenever I open it. How do you get a tight seal all through the system so you can suck fluid all the way down from the reservoir? I've seen suggestions online to put grease around the bleeder screw or plumber's teflon tape on the treads. Does this make any sense?

I've also tried the squeeze-the-brake-lever-open-and-close-the-bleeder-screw method, with no luck.

Does anyone have a better way to bleed brakes?

2013 BV350, without ABS.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 LX150 2015 GTS 2013 BV 350
Joined: 13 Sep 2012
Posts: 9743
Location: Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:11 pm quote
Re: Bleeding brakes on BV350
JKJ-FZ6 wrote:
Does anyone have a better way to bleed brakes?
The Scooterville Method?

You have to be sucking air as described, but other than teflon/grease I'm not sure what else you can do. I'm not sure how touchy the opening of the nipples is...obviously there's a sweet spot of open enough to get fluid out but not too much to have too much play around the threads for air to enter.

So, swearing doesn't help?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2012 Honda NC700 DCT, 2014 Can Am Spyder RT
Joined: 02 Mar 2013
Posts: 6372
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:21 pm quote
This is why I pressure bleed from the bottom.

Ossessionato
BV350, Primavera 150, Yamaha Zuma 125
Joined: 06 Jun 2013
Posts: 3287
Location: The Twin Cities of Minneapolis/Saint Paul, Minnesota
Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:25 pm quote
Madison Sully wrote:
This is why I pressure bleed from the bottom.

Please tell me more. How does that work?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2012 Honda NC700 DCT, 2014 Can Am Spyder RT
Joined: 02 Mar 2013
Posts: 6372
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:37 pm quote
Suck what you can out of the brake fluid reservoir (top side, at the lever).
Fill a big syringe with brake fluid, and get the air out of the ~6" or so length of clear hose you attach to it.
Attach the other end of the hose to the brake bleeder.
Open the bleeder. I suck a little into the syringe just to be sure the bleeder is open.
Push all that nice clean brake fluid into the brake system. From the bottom.
Close the bleeder.
Check the fluid that has filled the reservoir. If it's clear, you're done. If not....
Ossessionato
BV350, Primavera 150, Yamaha Zuma 125
Joined: 06 Jun 2013
Posts: 3287
Location: The Twin Cities of Minneapolis/Saint Paul, Minnesota
Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:41 pm quote
Thanks! If that doesnít work itís off to Scooterville.
Ossessionato
BV350, Primavera 150, Yamaha Zuma 125
Joined: 06 Jun 2013
Posts: 3287
Location: The Twin Cities of Minneapolis/Saint Paul, Minnesota
Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:59 pm quote
Do you need to squeeze the brake lever to open the pump?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2012 Honda NC700 DCT, 2014 Can Am Spyder RT
Joined: 02 Mar 2013
Posts: 6372
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:02 pm quote
JKJ-FZ6 wrote:
Do you need to squeeze the brake lever to open the pump?
Nope.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2012 Honda NC700 DCT, 2014 Can Am Spyder RT
Joined: 02 Mar 2013
Posts: 6372
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:03 pm quote
Madison Sully wrote:
JKJ-FZ6 wrote:
Do you need to squeeze the brake lever to open the pump?
Nope.
Put it this way. When you replace the brake pads, you push the piston back into the caliper. This pushes brake fluid back up the line. This is the same, only different...
Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 5438
Location: Latina (Italy)
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:36 am quote
It will be superfluous to repeat it but it would help, if possible, to shoot videos or photos of the maintenance operations and accompany them with descriptions; if there is something wrong or that can be improved, it will be easier to come to the rescue or advise.
PS: remember that brake blood is corrosive to painted parts.
Addicted
BV 350
Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 882
Location: Nebraska
Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:27 pm quote
Welcome to hell
I spent two days bleeding the brakes on my BV350 after getting air into the system from an unknown source. And was, eventually, mostly successful. I also started out with a vacuum pump. Big mistake.

Note that there is a proportioning valve under the front cover, with its own bleeder screw, that proportions pressure between one piston on the front caliper, and the rear caliper. Seems to be a good place for air to hang out.

If I had a dealer in the area that would do it, I'd take it in. Sadly, locally, I do not.

Piaggio did a good job of NOT putting the bleeders screws at the highest part of the calipers, NOT routing the lines so the caliper is at the lowest point. Easy to get air in, not easy to get it out.

If you do the back-bleeding method, almost certainly will want someone helping you, keeping an eye on the reservoir level and sucking out brake fluid as needed so it does not overflow.

I'm guessing the dealer has adaptors for the reservoirs so they can pressure-bleed the system from the top. The idea, whether pressure-bleeding or back-bleeding, is to move fluid through the system fast enough that it carries any air along with it. Give the air a chance to rise through slow-moving fluid, and it will almost certainly find a nice high spot to hang out.

As I mentioned elsewhere, I ended up taking the calipers off, inserting wood spacers so the pistons were retained, and holding them so the bleeder was at the highest point.

Next time I'll get someone to help, be very careful to keep pressure on the lines at all times. If that fails, I'll borrow a pressure bleeder and make some adaptors.
Ossessionato
2014 Commuter BV350(45,000)/2015 Scoot Life BV350(11,000)/2010 El Diablito SH150i(30,000)
Joined: 27 Dec 2013
Posts: 2579
Location: Orange Park Florida
Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:36 am quote
Re: Welcome to hell
Jimding wrote:
If I had a dealer in the area that would do it, I'd take it in. Sadly, locally, I do not.

If you do the back-bleeding method, almost certainly will want someone helping you, keeping an eye on the reservoir level and sucking out brake fluid as needed so it does not overflow.

I'm guessing the dealer.
If you search about BV brakes. You'll find out how clueless dealers(not all) can be.

If you suck the reservoir fluid out with a syringe, it will tell you how much is there and then you'll know how much you can pump in.

I have a special pressure bleeder that hooks up to a garden sprayer that's connected to a plate that bolts on where the reservoir cover is. One of the few perks of being a machinist. I got the idea off YouTube.
Hooked
Joined: 06 Oct 2013
Posts: 300

Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:44 am quote
I have never had an issue bleeding the brakes on my Ď13. Just keep the fluid moving and donít let any air get into the system.
Addicted
BV 350
Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 882
Location: Nebraska
Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:16 am quote
Great
Bueller wrote:
I have never had an issue bleeding the brakes on my Ď13. Just keep the fluid moving and donít let any air get into the system.
Great advice to a person who's already got air in the system.

I expect to be very careful next time, and hopefully avoid problems. But the system seems to admit air fairly easily, if you try to use a vacuum pump to bleed it. And once air is in the system, devilishly difficult to get it out without pressurized fluid being externally applied from one end or the other.

Simply pumping the lever, sufficient on every other bike and scooter I own, will not get the job done.

Maybe need to start a Beverly Owner's Group (BOG?) and chip in to buy a pressure bleeder with the appropriate adaptors that we can pass around?
Ossessionato
2014 Commuter BV350(45,000)/2015 Scoot Life BV350(11,000)/2010 El Diablito SH150i(30,000)
Joined: 27 Dec 2013
Posts: 2579
Location: Orange Park Florida
Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:06 am quote
Bleeding brakes is easy for me, it's taking apart the headset to get to the reservoir that sucks the big one
Ossessionato
2014 Commuter BV350(45,000)/2015 Scoot Life BV350(11,000)/2010 El Diablito SH150i(30,000)
Joined: 27 Dec 2013
Posts: 2579
Location: Orange Park Florida
Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:34 am quote
I know Jimding has seen this pic. After clearing the air in the sprayer valve, you push the adapter hose on the barb fitting. put a 4" hose on the bleeder screw so you can see fluid. Crack the bleeder on the plate to bleed the air out of the reservoir. Tighten the bleeder and open the caliper bleeder screw, push the sprayer valve and pump the brake lever until clean fluid exits the caliper.
After the system is clean. Disconnect the sprayer and use a syringe to suck out excess fluid in the reservoir so you can pull the bleeder plate without fluid pouring out.
Set the fluid level and replace gasket and cap. Clean up and then you get the pleasure of replacing the headset

dsc01180_10521.jpg

Ossessionato
2014 Commuter BV350(45,000)/2015 Scoot Life BV350(11,000)/2010 El Diablito SH150i(30,000)
Joined: 27 Dec 2013
Posts: 2579
Location: Orange Park Florida
Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:39 am quote
OOPS! Don't let the sprayer pressure go above 20PSI.
Ossessionato
BV350, Primavera 150, Yamaha Zuma 125
Joined: 06 Jun 2013
Posts: 3287
Location: The Twin Cities of Minneapolis/Saint Paul, Minnesota
Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:52 am quote
Did you make that or buy it?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 5438
Location: Latina (Italy)
Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:17 pm quote
If he did it:
To: genius
B: I want to see the sectional drawing
Ossessionato
2014 Commuter BV350(45,000)/2015 Scoot Life BV350(11,000)/2010 El Diablito SH150i(30,000)
Joined: 27 Dec 2013
Posts: 2579
Location: Orange Park Florida
Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:30 pm quote
JKJ-FZ6 wrote:
Did you make that or buy it?
Made it. Wouldn't be worth selling. I'd have to sell 100s of them to get the cost down. Besides, I'm semi-retired and full retirement can't come soon enough.
Can't put a video on GoogleTube, I'll be damned if I'm going to pay to be a good Samaritan.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 5438
Location: Latina (Italy)
Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:36 pm quote
breaknwind wrote:
JKJ-FZ6 wrote:
Did you make that or buy it?
Made it. Wouldn't be worth selling. I'd have to sell 100s of them to get the cost down. Besides, I'm semi-retired and full retirement can't come soon enough.
Can't put a video on GoogleTube, I'll be damned if I'm going to pay to be a good Samaritan.
Was the body machined from a solid piece using a milling machine tool?
I am familiar with this type of work.
Ossessionato
2014 Commuter BV350(45,000)/2015 Scoot Life BV350(11,000)/2010 El Diablito SH150i(30,000)
Joined: 27 Dec 2013
Posts: 2579
Location: Orange Park Florida
Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:42 pm quote
Attila wrote:
If he did it:
To: genius
B: I want to see the sectional drawing
Sorry, i just went thru my home projects on AutoCAD and can't find it. If I remember I'll check my work computer but don't get your hopes up. If life doesn't get in the way of living, I might remember to redraw it and post it as a PDF.
Ossessionato
2014 Commuter BV350(45,000)/2015 Scoot Life BV350(11,000)/2010 El Diablito SH150i(30,000)
Joined: 27 Dec 2013
Posts: 2579
Location: Orange Park Florida
Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:46 pm quote
Attila wrote:
breaknwind wrote:
JKJ-FZ6 wrote:
Did you make that or buy it?
Made it. Wouldn't be worth selling. I'd have to sell 100s of them to get the cost down. Besides, I'm semi-retired and full retirement can't come soon enough.
Can't put a video on GoogleTube, I'll be damned if I'm going to pay to be a good Samaritan.
Was the body machined from a solid piece using a milling machine tool?
I am familiar with this type of work.
Solid piece. I needed room to design the reservoir bleeder screw. You'll have to check GoogleTube for the garden sprayer. You'll have to add a valve stem to it to check the pressure.

dsc01176_98361.jpg

Hooked
Joined: 06 Oct 2013
Posts: 300

Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:42 am quote
Jimding wrote:
Bueller wrote:
I have never had an issue bleeding the brakes on my Ď13. Just keep the fluid moving and donít let any air get into the system.
Great advice to a person who's already got air in the system.

I expect to be very careful next time, and hopefully avoid problems. But the system seems to admit air fairly easily, if you try to use a vacuum pump to bleed it. And once air is in the system, devilishly difficult to get it out without pressurized fluid being externally applied from one end or the other.

Simply pumping the lever, sufficient on every other bike and scooter I own, will not get the job done.

Maybe need to start a Beverly Owner's Group (BOG?) and chip in to buy a pressure bleeder with the appropriate adaptors that we can pass around?
I did get some air in the system the first time I did it. I have nice hand vacuum pump that did nothing to help me, and a cheap $25 harbor freight compressed air driven vacuum bleeder that corrected the problem without issue. I really donít know what the big deal is. Iíve bled far more difficult systems than this.
Ossessionato
BV350, Primavera 150, Yamaha Zuma 125
Joined: 06 Jun 2013
Posts: 3287
Location: The Twin Cities of Minneapolis/Saint Paul, Minnesota
Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:02 am quote
Update: I tried Madison Sully's pressure method and still have a little air in the rear brake system. Bueller, which of the HF bleeders do you have? I see they now have two pressurized and two vacuum bleeder kits. Does it work from the caliper end or the master cylinder? Thanks.

Funny thing, I bled the brakes on the BV350 once before and didn't have any issues. Must have been lucky.
Addicted
S150, Beo 500ie
Joined: 14 Aug 2019
Posts: 541
Location: Bermuda
Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:30 am quote
breaknwind wrote:
Solid piece. I needed room to design the reservoir bleeder screw. You'll have to check GoogleTube for the garden sprayer. You'll have to add a valve stem to it to check the pressure.
That's a magnificent piece of aluminum, but using the original reservoir cover as a template, couldn't you make the same gizmo out of a 1/4" plate cut with a hacksaw and tapped for the fittings?
Hooked
Joined: 06 Oct 2013
Posts: 300

Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:22 am quote
JKJ-FZ6 wrote:
Update: I tried Madison Sully's pressure method and still have a little air in the rear brake system. Bueller, which of the HF bleeders do you have? I see they now have two pressurized and two vacuum bleeder kits. Does it work from the caliper end or the master cylinder? Thanks.

Funny thing, I bled the brakes on the BV350 once before and didn't have any issues. Must have been lucky.
I have one of their vacuum bleeders that connects to compressed air to create the vacuum.

One of the other things you can try is to have someone RAPIDLY pump the brake lever, letting it return fully before each pump. Then hold it firmly while you crack the bleeder screw. Do this several times in quick succession and you may force the air out. Obviously you will want to do this with a full reservoir and the cap installed or you are going to wind up with a mess.
Ossessionato
2014 Commuter BV350(45,000)/2015 Scoot Life BV350(11,000)/2010 El Diablito SH150i(30,000)
Joined: 27 Dec 2013
Posts: 2579
Location: Orange Park Florida
Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:43 am quote
Juan_ORhea wrote:
breaknwind wrote:
I needed room to design the reservoir bleeder screw.
That's a magnificent piece of aluminum, but using the original reservoir cover as a template, couldn't you make the same gizmo out of a 1/4" plate cut with a hacksaw and tapped for the fittings?
No. It's all about the bleeder. Unless you have a better way to bleed the reservoir. You don't want air in the reservoir during the pressure bleeding. When there's a clear tube on the reservoir bleed screw, you can see when the air is out of the reservoir
Even the barb fitting is 1/8 N.P.T. and needs more than 1/4" thick plate. You'll just have to wait till I go to work Saturday for a drawing. If I remember.
Addicted
S150, Beo 500ie
Joined: 14 Aug 2019
Posts: 541
Location: Bermuda
Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:24 pm quote
I might be missing something, but it would seem to me that if:
* the base of the barbed fitting extended well through the plate, near the bottom of the reservoir, and
* the base of the bleeder valve extended barely through the plate

Then it would be possible to tilt the bike a little so any air in the reservoir could float up to the bleeder and be released, and there would be enough horizontal distance between the two fittings' bases that any residual air would be immaterial to the bleeding process.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 LX150 2015 GTS 2013 BV 350
Joined: 13 Sep 2012
Posts: 9743
Location: Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:01 pm quote
JKJ-FZ6 wrote:
Funny thing, I bled the brakes on the BV350 once before and didn't have any issues. Must have been lucky.
A'ight. Next time I suggest that I come up there and stand by nursing a beer, mumbling words of encouragement and random advice on putting a finer edge on cursing....
Ossessionato
2014 Commuter BV350(45,000)/2015 Scoot Life BV350(11,000)/2010 El Diablito SH150i(30,000)
Joined: 27 Dec 2013
Posts: 2579
Location: Orange Park Florida
Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:45 am quote
Juan_ORhea wrote:
I might be missing something, but it would seem to me that if:
* the base of the barbed fitting extended well through the plate, near the bottom of the reservoir, and
* the base of the bleeder valve extended barely through the plate

Then it would be possible to tilt the bike a little so any air in the reservoir could float up to the bleeder and be released, and there would be enough horizontal distance between the two fittings' bases that any residual air would be immaterial to the bleeding process.
At risk of being a bragger. I have experience in design, drafting and prototyping.

318TS7XABBL._AC_.jpg
If you can design a way to correctly use a bleeder screw in 1/4" thick plate. You are definitely a genius.

  DoubleGood Vespa T-Shirts  
Post Reply    Forum -> General Discussion
[ Time: 0.2904s ][ Queries: 56 (0.1290s) ][ Debug on ]