MSF
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Member
Vespa LX 150
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 28
Location: High Desert CA
Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:35 pm quote
Just completed the Motorcycle Safety Foundation Safety Class! I highly recommend it! My baby blue Lx was the only scooter in the class but it was well received. You should have felt the way it vibrated when all the big bikes started up. It gave my baby the boost she needed to complete the class and pass the practical. The figure 8's were new to me but the instructor just told me that they would be a piece of cake for the Vespa. By George, he was right!
It was a great class. Lots of support, great information and training! I feel much more confident with my scooter and the skills I aquired are priceless!
It was mentioned by the instructor, that MSF is planning a safety course specifically for scooters since they are becoming so popular.
PS It turned out that I was the fastest in the portion of the test that included the straight a way and curve. I beat out the sport bike and did it safely.
Ossessionato
07 GTS250ie VCOA#2794
Joined: 23 Nov 2005
Posts: 3193
Location: Philly PA Burbs
Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:43 pm quote
Congrats Oblina!

The MSF class is a great resource for some hands on training. Keep your skills tuned by doing a practice session from time to time and you will be set for years of safe riding.

My sister is taking it in 2 weeks and I know I will feel better about her riding knowing she has taken the class.
Addicted
2007 Scarabeo 500ie
Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 592
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Sat Apr 08, 2006 6:40 pm quote
Congrats Oblina! I too have just taken, and passed, my MSF class today! Gotta head over to DMV now to get my license! I felt a little out of place in the class, being the only female. Lots of the guys were genuinely interested in my Vespa, checking it out, although one of them did call it a "skateboard!"

Monica
Member
Vespa LX 150
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 28
Location: High Desert CA
Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:15 pm quote
Thanks Tikka and Kermit!

Our class was 12 in all, 3 women and 9men. The instructor mentioned that the number of women riding motorcycles has increased by 45% in the last couple of years! Kermit, did you feel the "vibration" when the others started their bikes? I cant wait to go to the DMV with my MSF card and get my license. I am really proud of my accomplishment too!
Ossessionato
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2666
Location: Brookfield, WI
Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:36 pm quote
Re: MSF
Congratulations, Oblina!
oblina wrote:
It was mentioned by the instructor, that MSF is planning a safety course specifically for scooters since they are becoming so popular.
My wife and I are taking MSF the first week in May (not as warm in Wisconsin as Cali). They provide bikes and have a few scooters available for those that wish to take the range portion on one. My wife is doing it that way.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Yamaha Vstar classic 650 'Yamama' (Currently waspless but don't count me out!)
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 6723
Location: Maple Grove, MN
Sat Apr 08, 2006 8:46 pm quote
I'm taking it starting 4/20. They supply bikes, I'm not sure if I can use my own. Having never driven motorcycles I'm most nervous about shifting. If they let me use my GT that'd be nice... as long as I don't have to do anything that will endanger my baby... I'd much rather scratch up the DMVs bike!

Congrats to the graduates. I hope to join you soon!
Addicted
GTS250 SOLD
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Posts: 631
Location: Westmont, NJ
Sat Apr 08, 2006 9:57 pm quote
I'm taking the MSF on April 28 & 29. Took it last year. Aced the written part, but couldn't get comfortable enough with the shifting. First time I had ever been on a motorcycle. This year I'm taking it on a scooter. A friend is loaning me her Honda 82' Passport, which I will pick up this Friday night. My GTS is, or will be, waiting for me in Philly. As long as it doesn't snow, I'll have lot of time to get used to the scoot. My tilt-a-rack arrived yesterday and assembled it this morning. Got my canyon dancer and tie downs.
The ice has just recently left the streets, but there is still a lot of sand and gravel so not many motorcycles out yet and there aren't many scooters in Anchorage. Also we still have to watch for black ice.
Technical Moderator
Consume Less & Share More
Joined: 25 Oct 2005
Posts: 3130
Location: New Jersey, USA
Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:17 pm quote
Good thinking, oblina.
Hooked
X-9 500 Evo, GT200
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 163

Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:24 pm quote
Re: MSF
oblina wrote:
PS It turned out that I was the fastest in the portion of the test that included the straight a way and curve. I beat out the sport bike and did it safely.
Hmm. The CA MSF class must have changed for this year. It used to be that 250cc was the limit, which kinda puts the damper on sport bikes, and that the straight/curve portion isn't a race (or even timed), but done to show/test braking before a turn, then accelerating thru the turn.

Everyone thought I'd have no problems with the figure 8 on the GT, but it turns out going at a constant slow speed on an automatic scooter is hard, since you don't have a clutch to feather and going from coast to engage required getting the rpms up higher than you'd want. I ended up doing it by always giving it some throttle while using the back brake to modulate speed as needed.

What was surprising to most there was how good the GT was in the braking section. I could outbrake anybody since all I had to do was squeeze the levers. Everyone else had to clutch and downshift as well.
Petty Tyrant
GTS250 GTS300 MP3 500
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 29652
Location: Bay Area, California
Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:44 pm quote
Re: MSF
smorgasbord wrote:
and that the straight/curve portion isn't a race (or even timed), but done to show/test braking before a turn, then accelerating thru the turn.
Most of my demerit points on the final test came from going too slowly through this portion.
smorgasbord wrote:
Everyone thought I'd have no problems with the figure 8 on the GT, but it turns out going at a constant slow speed on an automatic scooter is hard, since you don't have a clutch to feather and going from coast to engage required getting the rpms up higher than you'd want. I ended up doing it by always giving it some throttle while using the back brake to modulate speed as needed.
This is something that I learned in the MSF course as well, and then forgot about once I bought my GT and started riding. A few weeks later, I "rediscovered" this trick and am now a firm believer in using throttle vs. rear brake to keep balance in any kind of slow moving / turning situation. By keeping some force against the rear wheels, the engine keeps the scooter balanced. The brake lets you use more throttle without going fast. I don't fully understand the physics of it, but the effect is quite pronounced.
Modératrice
2005 Cobalt Blue ET4
Joined: 13 Nov 2005
Posts: 6952
Location: Portland, OR
Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:07 pm quote
Re: MSF
jess wrote:
smorgasbord wrote:
Everyone thought I'd have no problems with the figure 8 on the GT, but it turns out going at a constant slow speed on an automatic scooter is hard, since you don't have a clutch to feather and going from coast to engage required getting the rpms up higher than you'd want. I ended up doing it by always giving it some throttle while using the back brake to modulate speed as needed.
I "rediscovered" this trick and am now a firm believer in using throttle vs. rear brake to keep balance in any kind of slow moving / turning situation. By keeping some force against the rear wheels, the engine keeps the scooter balanced. The brake lets you use more throttle without going fast. I don't fully understand the physics of it, but the effect is quite pronounced.
Yes, using the rear brake and NOT using the front brake is Tip Numero Uno in successful slow speed maneuvers-- and modulating the rear brake/throttle combo provides just enough centrifugal force to pull through the turns. Or so I imagine-- Who needs a clutch to feather, anyway ?
Ossessionato
None! I sold it :(
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 3247
Location: Burlington NC
Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:43 am quote
Here in NC the MSF class is only given on their bikes, at least the beginers. Scooters are really catching on, so it does suprise me that the class is still taught on only the motorcycles. Now if you take the experienced class you provide your own bike. I have heard that is a very involved class. They recomend it for riders with like mutiple years experience.

I still need to take it. The only place that teaches it around here is booked right now through June, Beale.
Hooked
2005 GT200-Vintage Green, 2004 BMW R1150RT-Biarritz Blue, 9' 4wt G Loomis
Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 465
Location: St Louis MO
Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:21 am quote
This must be the month for class. I'm in class the 29-30, and the advanced class next month. I'll have to ask about a scooter class, that would be interesting to take also.
Ossessionato
07 GTS250ie VCOA#2794
Joined: 23 Nov 2005
Posts: 3193
Location: Philly PA Burbs
Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:43 am quote
lomunchi wrote:
I'm taking it starting 4/20. They supply bikes, I'm not sure if I can use my own. Having never driven motorcycles I'm most nervous about shifting. If they let me use my GT that'd be nice... as long as I don't have to do anything that will endanger my baby... I'd much rather scratch up the DMVs bike!

Congrats to the graduates. I hope to join you soon!
In PA they supply the bikes as well, but you can present your cycle or scoot to the MSF Rider Coach on the first day of class for them to allow you to take the course on your own bike. They do a little safety check and you have to prove insurance coverage.

I had one scoot in my class when I took it and it wasn't mine. They teach you how to shift and go over many exercises for you to practice. I think it's a good thing to learn even though our normal rides are auto's.

Good luck to all who are taking the class this month! My class had about six people in it that had never even sat on a cycle yet. They all passed. They do a great job of teaching you everything you need to know to pass. Have fun!!
Member
ET4, Buell XB9SX, HD XL883C
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 42
Location: Birmingham AL
Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:00 am quote
There is a series of DVDs called "Ride like a Pro" that do a great job of demonstrating the use of slight throttle at low speeds to keep the bike upright and stable. Granted, the technique as demonstrated on the video is directed at (large, heavy) motorcycles with a rear foot brake and clutch lever, but as others have mentioned, you can emulate this on a scooter with judicous throttle and rear brake lever application
Member
Vespa LX 150
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 28
Location: High Desert CA
Sun Apr 09, 2006 6:56 pm quote
Re: MSF
smorgasbord wrote:
oblina wrote:
PS It turned out that I was the fastest in the portion of the test that included the straight a way and curve. I beat out the sport bike and did it safely.
Quote:
Hmm. The CA MSF class must have changed for this year. It used to be that 250cc was the limit, which kinda puts the damper on sport bikes, and that the straight/curve portion isn't a race (or even timed), but done to show/test braking before a turn, then accelerating thru the turn.
Well, I guess things change . The instructor made a point of telling us which of the test portions were timed and the straight/curve portion was one of them. At no time did I consider it a race. I was just to nervous. As you mentioned, braking and acceleration thru the curve were also part of the test. As for the 250cc limit, that was not an issue.
Quote:
Everyone thought I'd have no problems with the figure 8 on the GT, but it turns out going at a constant slow speed on an automatic scooter is hard, since you don't have a clutch to feather and going from coast to engage required getting the rpms up higher than you'd want. I ended up doing it by always giving it some throttle while using the back brake to modulate speed as needed.
That's a great suggestion. I will pass it on to my instructor.
Quote:
What was surprising to most there was how good the GT was in the braking section. I could outbrake anybody since all I had to do was squeeze the levers. Everyone else had to clutch and downshift as well.
I loved the braking section!
Member
Vespa LX 150
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 28
Location: High Desert CA
Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:14 pm quote
Good luck to you all who are signed up for the MSF. Its a great class and you will learn some great skills. Be safe and enjoy the ride!!
Enthusiast
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 51

Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:45 pm quote
lomunchi wrote:
I'm taking it starting 4/20. They supply bikes, I'm not sure if I can use my own.
Congrats on taking this step. When I took it in MN, MSF supplied the bikes. It may be possible for MSF to let you use your scoot; however, you're just there to learn, and sometimes the best learning is found when you just do what the instructor asks/expects. The class is designed for a novice, and if everyone else is on a motorcycle, I'd probably just take it that way too. Everything you learn will transfer to the scoot.

Good luck! Oh, and bring appropriate clothing. Class is held "rain or shine"!
Hooked
Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 306
Location: USA
Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:19 am quote
Quote:
Having never driven motorcycles I'm most nervous about shifting.
Lomunchi,

I just completed and passed the course this weekend. I too had never ridden motorcycles and was concerned about shifting. I read online someone saying not to worry about so... I stopped worrying about it.

Turns out it isn't a big deal. Somewhat seamlessly, the class takes everyone from standing beside the bike to shifting and riding -- I won't go so far to say that I'm an expert shifter, but it certainly didn't stand in the way of my participating, being comfortable on the bike or passing the class. Everyone in our class passed, despite some having a bit of a harder time with the shifting than others. The instructers stalled the bikes a few times themselves.

Conversely, I can't agree with all those people who say shifting is nothing. I think it's a another chunk of attention the rider must integrate. It's not difficult to stall or pick the wrong gear or not downshift after coming to a stop. You want to ride smoothly in whatever condition you're in, if you shift poorly, say in a curve because you've misjudged your engine speed, you can go down.

For me, at least STARTING with a scooter has meant not having to deal with that component of riding at the very same time as learning everything else there is to "get" about ridng... while safeguarding my butt. I was 47 last year when I took up riding. I felt that if I could take up riding and not have to deal with that shifting component, I'd be better off.

Bottom line: never having shifted won't keep you from doing well on the MSF class -- and scootering offers a real advantage to the novice.

Caviat: You might find yourself after the MSF dreaming of Moto Guzzi's or Indians.

PS: Interestingly, I was in the morning class Saturday and Sunday for the range exercises. There was another group that had Sat and Sun afternoon. We had a huge rainstorm move through all Saturday afternoon, sans lightning. The afternoon class went on, in the rain, and apparently people were dropping their bikes left and right. The instructers looked at it as a vital learning experience. You've never seen such a rag-tag fleet of 250 and 150cc bikes... mirrors and blinker stalks like wilted asparagas.
Moderator
2006 LX150 "Amadora"
Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 7129

Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:38 am quote
In my part of Ontario I looked long and hard for a course that would allow me to use my scooter - to no avail. The local class (which is a good one) supplies motorcycles, and I was advised to "borrow" a motorcycle to practice shifting before I take the course. So, I have to learn to ride a standard motorcycle in order to pass a course so that I can ride my automatic scooter? :? I ultimately found a course in Toronto that is specific to scooters, and supplies the scoots. For me, it relieves the concern of having to figure out the shifting (and the different braking) while I am also trying to learn the proper riding techniques.
Hooked
X-9 500 Evo, GT200
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 163

Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:48 am quote
Packa wrote:
You've never seen such a rag-tag fleet of 250 and 150cc bikes... mirrors and blinker stalks like wilted asparagas.
Your MSF-supplied bikes had mirror stalks? Wow, we didn't even have that. One bike had a broken clutch lever, so that bike had to be swapped out straight away.

I was happy to be on the GT, since I learned things that were specific to automatics (like trail-braking for the figure 8s). The only time I was worried was when we had to run over the 2x4s. I was glad to not be on an 8in wheeled bike....

Last edited by smorgasbord on Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:25 am; edited 1 time in total
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Yamaha Vstar classic 650 'Yamama' (Currently waspless but don't count me out!)
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 6723
Location: Maple Grove, MN
Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:51 am quote
Quite honestly, I figure if the license that I'll get would allow me to ride any bike I should probably know how to ride any bike so I'm kind of looking forward to it. I hope to have a cycle some day but I figured I had time to learn.

One could, however, argue that to get a license to drive a car you don't have to show proficiency with a stick!

Once apon a time the licences in WI had ranges (ie you could get an <250cc license). In MN it's one size fits all. Do many of you see size restrictions in licensing? Personally, I'm not sure it makes sense, the rules are the same for all size bikes and though there's certainly a difference in how they'd ride, the techniques and technologies should be generally the same... but what do I know...
Moderator
2006 LX150 "Amadora"
Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 7129

Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:03 am quote
lomunchi wrote:
Once apon a time the licences in WI had ranges (ie you could get an <250cc license). In MN it's one size fits all. Do many of you see size restrictions in licensing? Personally, I'm not sure it makes sense, the rules are the same for all size bikes and though there's certainly a difference in how they'd ride, the techniques and technologies should be generally the same... but what do I know...
In Ontario, they are introducing new rules this spring. If the displacement of the scooter is 50cc or less, then you can qualify for a "limited" license (ML) that pretty much restricts you to city streets. This allows for licensing of moped and smaller displacement scooters who used to be able to ride using their G (car) license. For more than 50cc you must get a regular motorcycle license (M). However, for the final exam, if you do not think that your scooter will manage freeway speeds, you can request an exemption from the freeway portion of the test, and this will be indicated as a restriction on your license (same as if you needed to wear glasses).

Others have told me that they may not do the freeway portion of the test, and for me, that is a BIG relief! With the huge volume of trucks we have on the freeway around London, most travelling 80 mph, I would be terrified if I had to go onto that same road on my LX! I am not even sure a truck would notice if it ran me down!
Hooked
X-9 500 Evo, GT200
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 163

Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:39 am quote
harnadem wrote:
... However, for the final exam, if you do not think that your scooter will manage freeway speeds, you can request an exemption from the freeway portion of the test...
How do they run the tests in Ontario? Particularly the freeway portion. Are they pillons? Do they have a separate bike from which they watch? How do they tell you want to do and when?

Here in CA, they run a slow speed test in the DMV's parking lot. That way they can watch you from a single safe vantage point. I can't imagine how they'd evaluate a test on city streets, much less a freeway. Heck, cagers don't even have to go on the freeway for their tests.
Moderator
2006 LX150 "Amadora"
Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 7129

Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:25 pm quote
smorgasbord wrote:
How do they run the tests in Ontario? Particularly the freeway portion. Are they pillons? Do they have a separate bike from which they watch? How do they tell you want to do and when?
I really have no idea about how they examine the freeway portion, as I haven't (and won't be) doing that level of testing yet.

The learners M1 is good for 90 days, and I have to wait at least 60 before I take the practical test. For that test, I have been told that it is in the parking lot of the testing centre. I then need to hold my M2 (novice) for about 22 months (18 if I do a course, which I will) before I can take the exit exam and get my full M license. That is a road exam, and I believe that you are given a wireless earpiece, and they observe you from a vantage point while issuing instructions on where to go. It may be, that they follow you onto the freeway portion if you actually do have to do it. But again, I have also been told that some individuals have done the final test in the parking lot? :?

From the government website (LSM is <51 cc):

The type of M licence issued will be based on the type of vehicle used for the road test:
M2 Road Test for LSMs and Mopeds

The M2 road test for LSMs and mopeds is the same as the M2 road test for motorcycles with the exception of the freeway portion of the test, which has been omitted. You will be required to complete the business section of the road test on a roadway with a posted speed limit of 50 km/hr.


Maybe all of this is actually a sham, and the exit (M) test is whether or not you have enough sense to NOT go onto the freeway when told to do so?!
Hooked
GT 200-His, LX150-Hers, Road King-Ours
Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 274
Location: Grand Junction, Colorado
Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:38 pm quote
My wife and I also took the MSF course this last weekend. They supplied the motorcycles which were all 250cc. I don't know if they would have let us use our scooters. I'm sure the instructor would have scoffed at the idea because he is a Hardley person and works at the local Hardley dealer. I don't know what the laws are in Colorado concerning the use of personal bikes. My wife had never driven a motorcyle before and the shifting really caused her problems. She barely passed because of that. Other than my wife having problems with learning how to shift, the class was excellent and we're both glad we took it. He offers advanced classes and refresher classes every spring that you can use your own ride. We're planning on taking those and look forward to it.
Addicted
GTS250 "Atomic Blast", GT200 Blue and White "Alfie", SQREAM Scooter Club
Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 1004
Location: Denver, CO
Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:43 pm quote
GJCO wrote:
My wife and I also took the MSF course this last weekend. They supplied the motorcycles which were all 250cc. I don't know if they would have let us use our scooters. I'm sure the instructor would have scoffed at the idea because he is a Hardley person and works at the local Hardley dealer. I don't know what the laws are in Colorado concerning the use of personal bikes. My wife had never driven a motorcyle before and the shifting really caused her problems. She barely passed because of that. Other than my wife having problems with learning how to shift, the class was excellent and we're both glad we took it. He offers advanced classes and refresher classes every spring that you can use your own ride. We're planning on taking those and look forward to it.
In Denver, you can take the class on a motorcycle or a scooter. If doing a scooter, you need to supply your own. (They use to supply scooters but not anymore.) I did my MSF on my own scooter.
Ossessionato
Several - see sig
Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 3030
Location: Avon, Ohio (25 miles west of Cleveland)
Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:38 pm quote
We checked into this on Ohio. One of the members of the local vintage scoot club is and MSF instructor. In Ohio, you CANNOT take the class on your own bike, you CANNOT take in on a scooter, the state of Ohio does not and will not offer scooter only classes, and the MSF certified instructors are prohibited from giving private classes.

So my wife, who is clutchophobic, will *never* take the MSF. And she really needs it. She grew up on a busy state highway out in the country, so never learned to ride a bicycle. When she did finally learn as an adult, we got her a 5 speed and she only used 2 or three of those, always the wrong one. She crashed a moped after riding it back and forth to the community mailbox all week, because she turned the throttle the wrong way, and she wrecked her bicycle and broke her arm because she never learned to cross a diagonal RR track at closer to 90 degrees.

So now, after finally passing her written motorcycle learners permit test Friday, and with about 20 miles experience riding her Metropolitan around the school parking lot and some cone slaloms and braking boxes I set up, she is legal to ride on the streets. I'm very scared for her!

She's the perfect example of somone who *needs* a scooter MSF class.
Hooked
X-9 500 Evo, GT200
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 163

Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:11 pm quote
Smorris wrote:
We checked into this on Ohio. One of the members of the local vintage scoot club is and MSF instructor. In Ohio, you CANNOT take the class on your own bike, you CANNOT take in on a scooter, the state of Ohio does not and will not offer scooter only classes, and the MSF certified instructors are prohibited from giving private classes.
I checked out http://www.motorcycle.ohio.gov/brcoverview.htm, which says:
Quote:
Students who wish to use their own motorcycle must submit the following to Motorcycle Ohio:
Letter requesting permission from the MO office stating reason for using your two-wheeled motorcycle/scooter in the MO class. (Example: modification for handicap use)
State the motorcycle/scooter engine size. (no more than 350cc and a minimum of 100cc)
Name of insurance company that has the motorcycle/scooter insured.
On the day of range activities, after state approval has been given, the student must show proof of insurance to the instructor and have the motorcycle/scooter safety checked for roadworthiness.
It may be that MO will reject your request, but it might be worth a shot.

Also, you can definitely use your own scooter for the Experienced Rider course http://www.motorcycle.ohio.gov/ercoverview.htm, as long as it's over 100cc.
Modératrice
2005 Cobalt Blue ET4
Joined: 13 Nov 2005
Posts: 6952
Location: Portland, OR
Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:57 pm quote
Dutch boy wrote:
There is a series of DVDs called "Ride like a Pro" that do a great job of demonstrating the use of slight throttle at low speeds to keep the bike upright and stable. Granted, the technique as demonstrated on the video is directed at (large, heavy) motorcycles with a rear foot brake and clutch lever, but as others have mentioned, you can emulate this on a scooter with judicous throttle and rear brake lever application
Thanks, Dutch Boy. I also recommend the "Ride like a Pro" videos, and got inspiration for emulating clutch feathering from that very source.

Oregon is another state that permits students to bring their own scooters for the MSF courses-- I was delighted to do the intermediate course this way.

Last edited by pdxvespa on Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
Ossessionato
Several - see sig
Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 3030
Location: Avon, Ohio (25 miles west of Cleveland)
Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:53 pm quote
Thanks, Smorgasboard.

Never thought to look at the actual info rather than listen to the instructor! Might be worth a shot.

I knew that the Experienced rider course could be taken on my scoot. The same instructor is signing up a class with the local club for May.
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