Safety Resources
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Petty Tyrant
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Fri Jun 06, 2008 5:31 am quote
Created article Safety Resources

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Petty Tyrant
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Fri Jun 06, 2008 5:37 am quote
Created at Al's recommendation. This is just a starting point, and I expect that there are quite a few more resources that can be added to this article.
Petty Tyrant
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Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:09 am quote
I see you've taken to the new section tag, Al. Cool!

Slowly picking up some skills here! Very slowly. Kind of like a cat taking to water.

Still plan to keep my day job - collecting my pension.
Destroyer of Worlds
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Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:47 pm quote
Ooo! I think we just witnessed our first instance of "edit instead of quote" among the new staff!
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Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:57 pm quote
ianfromnyc wrote:
Ooo! I think we just witnessed our first instance of "edit instead of quote" among the new staff!
Ouch- need to work on my aim!
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Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:48 am quote
Aviator47 wrote:
ianfromnyc wrote:
Ooo! I think we just witnessed our first instance of "edit instead of quote" among the new staff!
Ouch- need to work on my aim!
Pretty easy mistake to make if you're posting quickly. I've done this as well on occasion.
Petty Tyrant
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Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:29 am quote
This article seems to be coming along. Good work, Al!
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Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:32 am quote
jess wrote:
This article seems to be coming along. Good work, Al!
Thanks. For now, I'm trying to stick to the more "authoritative" stuff, and will try to organize it in a coherent manner. At least coherent to me. Can't vouch for how you guys might see it!
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Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:07 am quote
I don't know if it is useful to you are not, but our club has a good set of group riding rules that we follow and enforce with our weekly rides.

I'll post them here but I can provide you with the link if you are interested instead. We put quite a bit of work into it.
Quote:
Meeting Place and Departure Time


* Meeting place and departure times will be posted to the membership via the online calendar and e-mail in advance of the scheduled event.
* Rider briefing should be held just prior to departure, to establish a schedule for gas and rest stops, inform the group of the intended route, provide other pertinent information and review the group riding guidelines including formations and procedures.
* Individuals should make every effort to arrive promptly at the scheduled meeting time and be completely prepared for the scheduled departure time. This includes a full tank of gas, and necessary restroom visits.
* In the interest of safety and courtesy to other users of the road, some rides may be restricted to scooters that are capable of sustained travel at 80km/h under all conditions.




Riding Formation and Individual Positions


* The standard formation, under good conditions of road, traffic, and weather, will be a double row, staggered, in one traffic lane. The interval will be no less than one second between staggered riders, which will automatically make a 2 second interval between you and the scooter directly in front of you.
* The TMSC Road Captain will be at the head of the group, and typically will ride just to the left of lane centre. The Tail Gunner will ride at the rear of the formation.
* New members, guests, and any riders with little experience in group riding will be positioned at the front of the group, just behind the Road Captain.
* Each rider should maintain his or her starting line up position in the group until arrival at the destination. This allows each rider to become more familiar with the riding style and habits of those nearest him or her in the group, and is particularly important for the new or inexperienced riders.
* Under certain conditions the Road Captain will signal the group to form a single file formation. The signal is the left arm held overhead with one finger extended. Drop back to a safe following distance from the rider in front of you and move into a single file.
* It may be necessary to form smaller groups for safety due to surrounding conditions or local bylaws. There should be a temporary Road Captain to lead and a Tail Gunner to control the second part of the group. This may mean that the last rider of each group would become the Tail Gunner for that group. If possible, this rider should be another experienced Road Captain or Tail Gunner. If another Road Captain/Tail Gunner is not available, this rider should be briefed prior to the run as to his or her responsibilities in the event this situation should occur.


Speed, Intervals and Distances
* The Ride Leader will attempt to establish and maintain a uniform speed; consistent with the ability of the least experienced rider, surrounding conditions, the posted speed limit, the scooters at the ride, and safe riding practices. The Ride Leader should establish before the ride the abilities of the people and the scooters themselves prior to departure, especially concentrating on new riders, new members and visitors to the ride. The Ride Leader should continually check his mirrors to insure the formation is in good shape.
* The Ride Leader may choose to separate the group of inexperienced riders into a group of their own, consistent with expected or actual conditions, making sure there is an acting, experienced Ride Leader and Tail Gunner to guide them.
* All riders will make an effort to maintain the same speed to minimize the effect of irregular speeds on riders at the rear of the group.
* All riders will maintain a safe distance and lane position between themselves and the rider directly ahead, to be consistent with existing road, traffic, and weather conditions.


Minimum Safe Following Distances:
* Within the group, a safe distance is defined as a minimum two second delay between the rider, and the next rider directly ahead. This means that there is a minimum of a one second delay between staggered riders. Whenever a single file formation is employed, a safe distance remains defined as a minimum two second delay between the rider, and the rider directly ahead. The riders should also realize that by creating a large gap in the formation, cars will try to move in and split the formation, causing a dangerous situation. It also causes problems for the R when there are large gaps in the formation.
* Too many people get hung up with, ?there must be only 2 seconds between bikes?. This is a guideline for average highway riding. The gap should be determined by the speed and road conditions. The gap should be established before the ride for the sections of road to be traveled. The faster the speed, the more gap there should be. With that said, we also do not want huge gaping gaps in the formation where other vehicles will attempt to break into the formation. The gap should be consistent throughout the formation.
* With respect to vehicles ahead of the group, a safe distance is defined as an absolute minimum three second delay between the Ride Leader and any vehicle directly ahead of the group. If a car is in front of the formation, make adjustments to keep a good distance.
* A safe lane position is defined as riding immediately to the right or left of lane centre. This will keep the riders just off the centre oil stain, while maintaining the staggered formation, distance between riders and other obstacles, and not obstructing the line of vision between the Ride Leader and Tail Gunner.




Traffic Lanes
The Ride Leader will attempt to lead the group in a single lane when:


* The traffic flow appears to be most consistent with the speed of the group, using lane changes only when necessary to pass slower traffic or to avoid a hazardous condition, and to avoid blocking faster surrounding traffic.
* On roads with two lanes each direction, the group will normally travel in the number two lane, also known as the "slow" lane, allowing faster traffic to pass to left except when passing slower traffic on the right.
* On roads with three or more lanes in each direction, the group will normally travel in the number two lane, keeping the right lane open for other vehicles entering and exiting the highway, and the left lane(s) for traffic to pass.




Lane Changes and Passing


* On a multi-lane highway, the double row staggered formation will normally be maintained.
* The Ride leader will hold his or her position and signal for a lane change.
* All riders will hold their positions and pass the signal to the rear.
* The Tail Gunner will change lanes at the first safe opportunity, securing the lane for the group, and allowing the Ride Leader to see that the lane is clear and protected. The Ride Leader should be aware of when the Tail Gunner has changed lanes by using mirrors and will make a head check to ensure that no cars are beside the formation.
* The formation will then change lanes using the "follow the leader" approach. Once the Ride Leader begins to change lanes, everyone can start to change lanes. In every occasion it is still essential that each rider use his/her judgment and shoulder check prior to changing lanes to ensure the safety of the maneuver.
* There are times it will not be possible for the entire group to change lanes as above. When this situation arises, the Ride Leader will signal for a turn, and signal the group with one finger extended into the air. This indicates that changing lanes as a group is not possible. The Ride Leader will then change lanes when it is safe to do so. Everyone signals, head checks, and changes lanes front to back, as individuals, when it is safe to do so. Should the group become separated, regroup when it is safe to do so. Please use known good safety practices, including head checks.
* On a two-lane road with two way traffic (one lane each way), a single file formation should be used when passing other vehicles. The Ride Leader should also maintain a steady speed after the slow moving vehicle has been passed allowing the individual riders room to move back into formation ahead of the passed vehicle.
* If for any reason the group becomes separated, merge safely back into the formation, returning to your original position, using known good safety practices. Don't feel it's necessary to break the world land speed record in trying to catch up. The Ride Leader will be aware and adjust accordingly once they are clear of the passed vehicle.




Hand Signals


* At all times, standard hand signals will be used for changing the formation to a single row and back to double staggered, all turns, lane changes, slowing, and stopping. Turn signal lights will also be used at all times.
* All signals will be relayed to the rear of the group to allow all riders to take appropriate precautionary measures, and be aware of changes in speed and direction. Once the hand signal is given and the person sees in their mirror that it is being passed on, they may return to gripping their handlebars with both hands. The only one that needs to ?hold? the hand signal is the Tail Gunner until he/she reaches the spot of the maneuver, based on following traffic.
* Left arm held high, one finger extended over head indicates single file and extended following distance.
* Left arm held high, one finger extended over head, followed by the Ride Leader signaling and changing lanes indicates that riders will move as individuals to whatever position is required.
* Left arm held high with two fingers extended over head indicates the standard staggered formation.
* Left arm held low and to the side, palm facing backwards, indicates slow and or stop.
* If a rider is uncomfortable using hand signals, he/she needn't. However, everyone should be using their turn signal lights.




Unscheduled or Emergency Stops


* Unscheduled stops for gas, restroom, or rider fatigue can lead to confusion in the group, and confusion can lead to accidents. The Ride Leader should be informed that a stop is necessary in order to lead the group in an organized fashion to the next convenient and safe place to stop.
* Any rider with an equipment problem should inform one of the Organizers, Ride Leader or Tail Gunner as quickly and as safely as possible.
* When the Ride Leader is informed, he or she will stop the group at the earliest possible moment, when and where it is safe.
* If the rider must pull over immediately, only the Tail Gunner or assigned formation mechanic will accompany that rider to a stop. If there is an assigned mechanic, he or she should be at the rear of the formation. The Ride Leader should be informed if he or she is not aware of this situation. Once the Ride Leader is informed, he or she will pull the group over as soon as it is safe to do so.
* Any rider observing a problem with another rider's equipment should inform that rider as quickly and safely as possible. If it appears that a stop is necessary, the Ride Leader should also be notified.
* The Ride Leader should use good judgment and common sense when choosing a spot to pull over. Try to avoid an area with hazards to scooters, such as heavy traffic, broken glass, trash, loose sand, gravel, and fresh asphalt.




Accidents


* In the event the group comes upon the scene of an accident or if someone in the group is involved in an accident, the Road Captain will stop the group at the earliest possible moment (keeping with known good safety practices). It may be necessary for the group to disperse and park separately to avoid creating additional hazardous conditions.
* Members of the Toronto Moto Scooter Club will provide assistance in any practical way possible including but not limited to:

o Slow, divert, or stop traffic in a safe manner, using flares if available.
o Aid and comfort those involved.
o Call 911 to notify the Police, Ambulance, and/or Fire services as the situation demands.
o Maintain order and preserve the accident scene for Police investigation
o If possible, take photographs.
o If possible, obtain licence plate numbers and vehicle descriptions, including driver descriptions in the event of a hit and run violation.
o Obtain names and addresses of witnesses, if necessary.
o If possible, maintain overall control of the situation until relieved by the proper authorities.




Safety Equipment


* It is assumed that all riders will come to the ride with a well-maintained scooter.
* All riders should show up with appropriate riding apparel for the weather conditions.
* All group riders are encouraged to bring a well-stocked tool kit to all club rides.
* All group riders are encouraged to bring a well-maintained first aid kit to all club rides.
* The TMSC Organizers should bring the following to the ride:

o First aid kit.
o Route maps
o Run information.
o Cell phone.
o Two way radios and headsets for ride communications



By participating in any group ride or club event participants agree to all of the above.

Ride Safe! Have Fun!
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Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:09 pm quote
Benny-

Thanks. Please send the link. I had planned on simply providing objective info in the Safety Resources, but this is one area where a short "soapbox" introduction might be in order. Perhaps something like:

"GROUP RIDING: The following four references are offered as examples of group riding safety protocols. Each represents "A Way" to address group rides. MV leaves it to your group to develop "The Way" you will adopt. MV reminds you that to enjoy a safe group ride, every rider must be on the "same sheet of music". Unpredictable behavior can cause mishaps. Thus, we encourage you to develop a Group Ride Guidelines publication covering the aspects of conduct similar to that contained in the samples given below, designed for the needs of your group, and use it every time your group rides. Each and every rider in your group should know, understand and accept his/her responsibilities and the practices your group has adopted.

Group Riding from the American Motorcycle Association
Motorcycle Etiquette from the New Jersey Motorcycle Cruisers organization
Group Riding Guidelines for Street Bikes from the Master Strategy Group.
Group Riding from the Toronto Moto Scooter Club
"

I would then say to cut it off at the four references to keep it relatively simple. These seem to offer a wealth of info.

What do you all think?

Al
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Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:16 pm quote
The link is http://scooter.meetup.com/197/pages/TMSC_Riding_Guidelines/
I think your proposal is quite reasonable. We don't need to have the information on MV, having the links to the origins of the information gives the creators credit for the work.
Petty Tyrant
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Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:42 pm quote
Aviator47 wrote:
"[i]GROUP RIDING: The following four references are offered as examples of group riding safety protocols. Each represents "A Way" to address group rides. MV leaves it to your group to develop "The Way" you will adopt. MV reminds you that to enjoy a safe group ride, every rider must be on the "same sheet of music". Unpredictable behavior can cause mishaps. Thus, we encourage you to develop a Group Ride Guidelines publication covering the aspects of conduct similar to that contained in the samples given below, designed for the needs of your group, and use it every time your group rides. Each and every rider in your group should know, understand and accept his/her responsibilities and the practices your group has adopted.
I like this approach a lot.
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Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:45 pm quote
I've put it up as proposed so we can all see it. No pride of authorship, so if there are comments or criticisms, fire away.

Al
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Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:05 pm quote
jess wrote:
I like this approach a lot.
Thanks. I think it is in everyone's best interest to avoid identifying one single approach to something like this. Give them the general and let them work out the specifics. Especially since various groups might have unique situations that we cannot foresee, and time does bring new info to us. Thus, we have given them a starting point and stressed the need to do this.

I also added a mention to review and update periodically.

Al
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Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:11 pm quote
jess wrote:
Aviator47 wrote:
"[i]GROUP RIDING: The following four references are offered as examples of group riding safety protocols. Each represents "A Way" to address group rides. MV leaves it to your group to develop "The Way" you will adopt. MV reminds you that to enjoy a safe group ride, every rider must be on the "same sheet of music". Unpredictable behavior can cause mishaps. Thus, we encourage you to develop a Group Ride Guidelines publication covering the aspects of conduct similar to that contained in the samples given below, designed for the needs of your group, and use it every time your group rides. Each and every rider in your group should know, understand and accept his/her responsibilities and the practices your group has adopted.
I like this approach a lot.
I agree, there is no one right way. Every club/riding group needs to find what works for them.
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Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:14 pm quote
Good approach, Al. Comprehensive yet flexible, encouraging local responsibility for finding rules that work for any given group.

--D
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Sat Nov 01, 2008 1:43 pm quote
I'm wondering whether links and info on rider schools should be part of this article or a separate one. MSF courses are just one of several schools. For example, I'm thinking of these two:

Alameda County Sheriff's Civilian Course
http://www.alamedacountysheriff.org/rtc/classes/evoc/1day_adv_civ_motor/class.htm
Quote:
This program is designed to teach basic, intermediate and advanced skills to students. This training covers much of those taught to police motor officers. It is a highly tactical and defensive training environment, and very challenging.
And

Total Control Advanced Riding Clinics
http://www.totalcontroltraining.net/
Quote:
Unfortunately for experienced riders, there is a large gap between the Motorcycle Safety Foundation's Experienced RiderCourse (ERC) and the many racetrack schools around the country. Many riders are interested in improving their skills but are unwilling to take on the additional risks associated with a high-speed environment. If you fit into the "I'm interested, but" group, you're not alone. In fact, if you add up all the attendees of all the race schools together, they only represent a tiny percentage of street riders. This is not to say they are not good schools. To the contrary, they have much to offer. But they are not for everyone. Fortunately, Lee Parks' Total Control Advanced Riding Clinic (Total Control ARC) has a solution for those experienced riders "caught in the middle," as well as those track-day junkies and racers who want to be able to further enhance their skills in a controlled environment with expert instruction.
I can start the new article if y'all think that's better or I can add a new section to this article on specific schools.

Whatcha think?
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Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:54 pm quote
StyleC wrote:
I'm wondering whether links and info on rider schools should be part of this article or a separate one. MSF courses are just one of several schools. For example, I'm thinking of these two:

I can start the new article if y'all think that's better or I can add a new section to this article on specific schools.
Whatcha think?
I think this should be added because someone who is interested in reading about safety should have a one stop shop to find all references revolving around safety.

Here's an example. There are several Leo Vince threads and each has good info on them. I remember going through each one and thought why couldn't all these threads be on one post. At one of the MC forums I belong to, when a newbie starts a new thread on an old subject, the moderators & members will "kindly" suggest attaching it to an existing thread instead of starting a new one. Just my thoughts...
Destroyer of Worlds
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Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:00 pm quote
Okay, I just reworked the section nesting so it's now divided by country. There is a section under United States called "Private Training". Go ahead and add whatever you want to that section.
Ossessionato
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Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:03 pm quote
Okay, I'll pull my finger out and collate some Australian resources to add to the list.

L
Ossessionato
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Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:40 pm quote
I just added a link to the Web Bike World Helmet FAQ page.

Dave
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fluffy bunny
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Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:41 pm quote
My first bazmond - I've added a link to accident research centre at Monash Uni but it has decided to be a heading rather than a section. Maybe because it is Sunday afternoon I can;t see exactly how I have buggered up the code.

Also, I have found a great list of information for Australians wanting to get their license - we do our safety training as an obligatory part of getting our licenses.

What is policy on linking to other sites? This person as done a great job...

http://www.netrider.net.au/forums/viewtopic.php?t=36015
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Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:17 am quote
Would adding a section for real MV member accidents be useful?

Example:
Case 1
Summarize what accident occurred (the link to the post can be added in case someone wants to read it).One member recently wrote he fell because his rear tire slid out from under him. He admitted he only applied his rear brakes on a recently rained on street.

[/b]What happened?
The rider experienced a low side fall. This type of fall is when a rider locks his rear brakes and skids to a stop or fall.

How to avoid this
The rider should have applied his front brakes in a smooth and progressive squeeze and not solely on his rear brakes. He was fortunate he only experienced a low side fall instead of a high side fall.

I know this is a lot of work, but because of my recent accident I had a lot of time to think how I could have avoided this from happening in the first place. I wanted to share my post accident thoughts to help others potentially avoid what happened to me.

Again, this might be a lot of work and maybe too much legal schmegal liability to diagnose an accident? Thoughts?
Petty Tyrant
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Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:24 am quote
Scooterrific wrote:
My first bazmond - I've added a link to accident research centre at Monash Uni but it has decided to be a heading rather than a section. Maybe because it is Sunday afternoon I can;t see exactly how I have buggered up the code.
No problem... when the sections get heavily nested like they are in this article, it's difficult to tell exactly what's going on. I moved your addition up inside the closing [/section] tag so that it would be within the Serious Reading section. At least, I think that's where you were trying to put it. If not, let us know.
Scooterrific wrote:
What is policy on linking to other sites? This person as done a great job...

http://www.netrider.net.au/forums/viewtopic.php?t=36015
I'm okay with linking to other sites.
Petty Tyrant
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Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:26 am quote
sfarchie wrote:
Would adding a section for real MV member accidents be useful?
I'm on the fence about this. It's similar to the discussion we just had on the Tires topic about discussion vs. article, and disparate personal experiences being a difficult subject for a wiki article.
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Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:19 am quote
jess wrote:
sfarchie wrote:
Would adding a section for real MV member accidents be useful?
I'm on the fence about this. It's similar to the discussion we just had on the Tires topic about discussion vs. article, and disparate personal experiences being a difficult subject for a wiki article.
For what it's worth, I think this would make a good thread in General Discussions. The crash report thread on ModernBuddy has been an incredibly useful tool and informative thread, especially since a motivated member compiled crash stats based on the info there.
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Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:15 pm quote
ericalm wrote:
jess wrote:
sfarchie wrote:
Would adding a section for real MV member accidents be useful?
I'm on the fence about this. It's similar to the discussion we just had on the Tires topic about discussion vs. article, and disparate personal experiences being a difficult subject for a wiki article.
For what it's worth, I think this would make a good thread in General Discussions. The crash report thread on ModernBuddy has been an incredibly useful tool and informative thread, especially since a motivated member compiled crash stats based on the info there.
I understand your concerns, Jess. It really doesn't seem to fit in with the wiki concept.

And I also agree with, ericalm. I know when I read about real accidents it helps me to learn what to do or act as a reminder.

I took my GTS out the other day and I can honestly say I am more aware of my surroundings now after the accident. Perhaps bordering paranoia, but definitely a more alert rider.
Petty Tyrant
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Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:09 pm quote
So I'm thinking the sectionification of this particular article has gotten a bit overbearing as it's grown. I think the major sections and the region sections are fine. Some of the articles have section titles instead of just being bolded, and I think it might make the article a bit harder to read.

I'm thinking maybe we should just have titles of papers be simple bold, not sections.

What do you all think?
Ossessionato
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Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:15 pm quote
Maybe the serious reading and list of other resources could be sectioned off to a "resource" area? Then it could just live in this area as a link? (I am currently talking in upwards inflections. Can you tell?)
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Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:30 pm quote
jess wrote:
sfarchie wrote:
Would adding a section for real MV member accidents be useful?
I'm on the fence about this. It's similar to the discussion we just had on the Tires topic about discussion vs. article, and disparate personal experiences being a difficult subject for a wiki article.
I would be very hesitant to post mishap info in an authoritative looking fashion, as it would raise the potential of contributing/causative factor identification, which we have no way of verifying. It's one thing for a member to post interpretative opinion, and another for MV to appear to be putting or allowing it out there as something authoritative.

A mishap experience thread or forum might be the better approach. Lets members share their personal experience, but without "legitimizing" any conclusions or recommendations therein. No even sure I'd use the term "report", but I've been a real mishap investigator and have some strong professional views on what a "report" is.

Al
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Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:41 pm quote
Aviator47 wrote:
jess wrote:
sfarchie wrote:
Would adding a section for real MV member accidents be useful?
I'm on the fence about this. It's similar to the discussion we just had on the Tires topic about discussion vs. article, and disparate personal experiences being a difficult subject for a wiki article.
I would be very hesitant to post mishap info in an authoritative looking fashion, as it would raise the potential of contributing/causative factor identification, which we have no way of verifying. It's one thing for a member to post interpretative opinion, and another for MV to appear to be putting or allowing it out there as something authoritative.

A mishap experience thread or forum might be the better approach. Lets members share their personal experience, but without "legitimizing" any conclusions or recommendations therein. No even sure I'd use the term "report", but I've been a real mishap investigator and have some strong professional views on what a "report" is.
Thanks for articulating this with much more finesse than I was able to, Al.
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'08 GTS 250i.e., 1/2 '58 Allstate (RIP), '09 Ducati M1100S (rolly polly'd), '10 Ducati Streetfighter
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Location: San Francisco
Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:49 pm quote
Agreed. Perhaps something like a learn from our mistakes thread. The standard format will be something like:
Brief summary of accident
What went wrong
How could it have been avoided


I read these on another forum and I am learning from them. Granted, a lot of the cases were riders going too hot into a turn. But it takes, on average, 17 times for someone to remember one message, so...

I don't think it should be a wiki article, but perhaps a thread for all involved in an accident to contribute. If someone was able to avoid getting into an accident based on what I wrote, then I feel it's worth it.
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Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:01 pm quote
Here are the questions we have on our crash thread on ModernBuddy:
Quote:
1. Which Buddy (50/125) was crashed? Color?
2. Was the crash due to rider error? What time of day did it occur?
3. Could the crash have been avoided? What will you do differently next time?
4. Was the rider injured?
5. What was the damage to the Buddy?
6. Cost of repairs, if any?
7. How much (weeks, months, years) riding experience does the rider have? Does the rider have a motorcycle permit, license or neither?
8. Had the rider completed the MSF course?
9. Was the rider the scooter's owner?
10. How fast was the rider going?
11. How far was the rider from home?
They're a little disorganized because they've been amended a few times over the past couple years. But, as I said earlier, it's been an invaluable part of the forum. Many members have told me they've reconsidered their gear choices and decided to take the MSF after reading the thread.
Molto Verboso
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Posts: 1877
Location: Bay Area, California
Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:56 pm quote
ericalm wrote:
Here are the questions we have on our crash thread on ModernBuddy:
Quote:
1. Which Buddy (50/125) was crashed? Color?
2. Was the crash due to rider error? What time of day did it occur?
3. Could the crash have been avoided? What will you do differently next time?
4. Was the rider injured?
5. What was the damage to the Buddy?
6. Cost of repairs, if any?
7. How much (weeks, months, years) riding experience does the rider have? Does the rider have a motorcycle permit, license or neither?
8. Had the rider completed the MSF course?
9. Was the rider the scooter's owner?
10. How fast was the rider going?
11. How far was the rider from home?
They're a little disorganized because they've been amended a few times over the past couple years. But, as I said earlier, it's been an invaluable part of the forum. Many members have told me they've reconsidered their gear choices and decided to take the MSF after reading the thread.
When I've read over those crash reports on ModernBuddy, I often find something lacking in them. Most of those questions fall into the yes/no or other one-word answer category. I do like Ray's suggestions, to get a fuller picture, with information the rest of us might be able to use.
Definitely a thread, not a wiki article.
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Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:19 pm quote
jaded wrote:
ericalm wrote:
Here are the questions we have on our crash thread on ModernBuddy:
Quote:
1. Which Buddy (50/125) was crashed? Color?
2. Was the crash due to rider error? What time of day did it occur?
3. Could the crash have been avoided? What will you do differently next time?
4. Was the rider injured?
5. What was the damage to the Buddy?
6. Cost of repairs, if any?
7. How much (weeks, months, years) riding experience does the rider have? Does the rider have a motorcycle permit, license or neither?
8. Had the rider completed the MSF course?
9. Was the rider the scooter's owner?
10. How fast was the rider going?
11. How far was the rider from home?
They're a little disorganized because they've been amended a few times over the past couple years. But, as I said earlier, it's been an invaluable part of the forum. Many members have told me they've reconsidered their gear choices and decided to take the MSF after reading the thread.
When I've read over those crash reports on ModernBuddy, I often find something lacking in them. Most of those questions fall into the yes/no or other one-word answer category. I do like Ray's suggestions, to get a fuller picture, with information the rest of us might be able to use.
Definitely a thread, not a wiki article.
Yeah, I agree. A lot of them should be re-worded and we should ask for a detailed description. (In factt, after the next stats gathering, I may re-write the questions altogether.) That thread really snowballed into something much bigger than I'd thought. Part of the problem is Buddy owners' propensity to crash. 15% order replacement body parts in the first 6 months. One high-volume dealer said 30% of the Buddys he's sold have been crashed.
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:03 am quote
While I am not proposing a form as comprehensive as this, there are a few questions on this form that might be worthy of inclusion.

For example:
What Was Your Vehicle Doing Prior to the mishap?
Indicate the Sequence of Events as they occurred to YOUR vehicle
Other Vehicle(s) Involved in the mishap
What Was the Other Vehicle Doing Prior to the mishap?
Non-Motorist(s) Involved in the mishap
Mishap Conditions - (just about everything shown on the form

Just some suggestions. It would be great if a "fill in the blanks" web page was created to gather the info, then put it into a standard format upon posting. I know that's a lot of work to design ( i can't even format text on a wiki page), but it would provide a coherent and consistent record of mishap data for our reading.

And, one last request. Could we adopt the term "mishap" rather than "crash" or "accident". I know it's a semantic issue, but, for example, someone who takes a turn too fast does not have an "accident" if the excessive speed was intentional. "Accident" implies a result arising more from chance than intent. Just a lingering terminology bias from my flying days.

Al
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Location: Bay Area, California
Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:47 am quote
Aviator47 wrote:
It would be great if a "fill in the blanks" web page was created to gather the info, then put it into a standard format upon posting.
It's an intriguing idea. I'd like to have such a thing, if I could find the time.
Aviator47 wrote:
And, one last request. Could we adopt the term "mishap" rather than "crash" or "accident". I know it's a semantic issue, but, for example, someone who takes a turn too fast does not have an "accident" if the excessive speed was intentional. "Accident" implies a result arising more from chance than intent. Just a lingering terminology bias from my flying days.
Ooh, semantics! I could go on and on.

My perspective on this (though I have in no way spent nearly as much time on this subject as you have, Al) is that nobody ever intends to crash, and the end result is still a crash regardless of the cause.

As for accident, I've got a broader interpretation of the term. I've always been of the opinion that at the root of every accident lies a mistaken assumption. The person assumed they could take the corner at that speed. They assumed the road would be clear of debris. They assumed that nobody would be going through the intersection at that moment. They assumed that the car was not going to turn left. They assumed that the beam they were walking on was strong enough to support their weight. They assumed that there would be no metallurgical defects in the turbine. They assumed the fuse was long enough.

In other words, even though some mishaps have random chance associated with them, there's still always an assumption there that, however safe it seemed to be at the time, it wasn't. I've yet to think of an accident scenario where there wasn't some assumption involved (and if someone else can, please let me know -- I'd love to hear it).

Not to say that accident is the right term and mishap isn't, but I love me some discussion on semantics.
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:00 am quote
jess wrote:
Aviator47 wrote:
It would be great if a "fill in the blanks" web page was created to gather the info, then put it into a standard format upon posting.
It's an intriguing idea. I'd like to have such a thing, if I could find the time.
Aviator47 wrote:
And, one last request. Could we adopt the term "mishap" rather than "crash" or "accident". I know it's a semantic issue, but, for example, someone who takes a turn too fast does not have an "accident" if the excessive speed was intentional. "Accident" implies a result arising more from chance than intent. Just a lingering terminology bias from my flying days.
Ooh, semantics! I could go on and on.

My perspective on this (though I have in no way spent nearly as much time on this subject as you have, Al) is that nobody ever intends to crash, and the end result is still a crash regardless of the cause.

As for accident, I've got a broader interpretation of the term. I've always been of the opinion that at the root of every accident lies a mistaken assumption. The person assumed they could take the corner at that speed. They assumed the road would be clear of debris. They assumed that nobody would be going through the intersection at that moment. They assumed that the car was not going to turn left. They assumed that the beam they were walking on was strong enough to support their weight. They assumed that there would be no metallurgical defects in the turbine. They assumed the fuse was long enough.

In other words, even though some mishaps have random chance associated with them, there's still always an assumption there that, however safe it seemed to be at the time, it wasn't. I've yet to think of an accident scenario where there wasn't some assumption involved (and if someone else can, please let me know -- I'd love to hear it).

Not to say that accident is the right term and mishap isn't, but I love me some discussion on semantics.
Jess

I think we are on the same wavelength. You are right that a large proportion, perhaps a majority of "accident" have an underlying human factor causation. "Mishap" implies neither human factors nor chance. "Accident" strongly implies chance and/or factors outside human control (operator error, mechanic's error, poor QC resulting in mechanical failure). However, it's not something I would die on my sword for here! Any venue to share valid lessons learned is in our best interests.

Do we have a web page designer with too much time on their hands who could make an "accident/mishap" posting form? That would be the cat's whiskers.

Al
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Posts: 29654
Location: Bay Area, California
Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:31 am quote
Aviator47 wrote:
I think we are on the same wavelength. You are right that a large proportion, perhaps a majority of "accident" have an underlying human factor causation. "Mishap" implies neither human factors nor chance. "Accident" strongly implies chance and/or factors outside human control (operator error, mechanic's error, poor QC resulting in mechanical failure).
I definitely see this point of view.
Aviator47 wrote:
Do we have a web page designer with too much time on their hands who could make an "accident/mishap" posting form? That would be the cat's whiskers.
Heh. The web page is the easy part. It's the back-end posting and database stuff that takes all the effort.
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:17 am quote
jess wrote:
Heh. The web page is the easy part. It's the back-end posting and database stuff that takes all the effort.
Well, it has been almost decades (15 years) since I have written code (and I was damn good at it in my time). So, with a lack of familiarity of how it would be done "web style", might I innocently suggest that rather than generating a database entry from the web page, simply generate a text page that posts the entries in a defined format for reading. Hit submit, and the fields are transcribed into a sort of "form letter/mail merge text document" and posted much as if it had been typed in that way to begin with. Might not be good for analysis, but it could still "educate".

EDIT: After a good night's sleep, I realize that the above is vague, at best. What I meant is to use a fill in the blank, radio button and drop down choice format to get user input in a defined manner. Then merge the input info from the web page into a text document that would then be transferred into the text field of a post for submission as the OP in a new thread. Members could then discuss the "Mishap Summary" post in the usual fashion.

BTW, In addition to actual mishaps, there are "near misses" that could be informative. Mishaps could be categorized as "impact", "Laydown", "loss of control with recovery", "near miss", for example.

Al

Last edited by Aviator47 on Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:05 pm; edited 4 times in total
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