Scootering Laws by Locality
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Destroyer of Worlds
LML Star 125, Vespa GT200
Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 2010
Location: London, United Kingdom
Fri Jun 06, 2008 1:50 pm quote
Created article Scootering Laws by Locality

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Modératrice
2005 Cobalt Blue ET4
Joined: 13 Nov 2005
Posts: 6952
Location: Portland, OR
Fri Jun 06, 2008 1:58 pm quote
Will each state/country be a link to its article?

--D
Destroyer of Worlds
LML Star 125, Vespa GT200
Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 2010
Location: London, United Kingdom
Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:06 pm quote
Well, it can either be a straight list where people can add info in the space after the place name, it can be anchored where everything goes on one page where there's a link at the top that jumps to an anchor further down (not sure if BBCode can do that), or each name can link to an individual page. The third option is more elegant, but most cumbersome. The first option is the simplest, but could get crowded and long to scroll through.
Petty Tyrant
GTS250 GTS300 MP3 500
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 29652
Location: Bay Area, California
Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:07 pm quote
ianfromnyc wrote:
it can be anchored where everything goes on one page where there's a link at the top that jumps to an anchor further down (not sure if BBCode can do that)
Thanks for reminding me... this is one of the things I'd like to address at some point. I'll add it to the feature tracking list.
Moderator
2006 PX 150 & Malossi Kitted Malaguti Yesterday (Wife's)
Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 12959
Location: Paros Island, Greece
Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:55 am quote
Would it be simpler to point to WWW.DMV.ORG? They have already cataloged the US.
Moderator
2010 Dragon Red GTS 300 Super, 2018 Grigio Titanio Piaggio Liberty S 150
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 16295
Location: Toronto, Canada, Fort Lauderdale, Florida
Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:00 am quote
Aviator47 wrote:
Would it be simpler to point to WWW.DMV.ORG? They have already cataloged the US.
Wow, that is a great resource for those of you in the USA.
Modératrice
2005 Cobalt Blue ET4
Joined: 13 Nov 2005
Posts: 6952
Location: Portland, OR
Sun Jun 08, 2008 12:18 pm quote
Benito wrote:
Aviator47 wrote:
Would it be simpler to point to WWW.DMV.ORG? They have already cataloged the US.
Wow, that is a great resource for those of you in the USA.
+1. Thanks, Al; that's invaluable.

--Deborah
Moderator
2006 PX 150 & Malossi Kitted Malaguti Yesterday (Wife's)
Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 12959
Location: Paros Island, Greece
Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:26 am quote
pdxvespa wrote:
Benito wrote:
Aviator47 wrote:
Would it be simpler to point to WWW.DMV.ORG? They have already cataloged the US.
Wow, that is a great resource for those of you in the USA.
+1. Thanks, Al; that's invaluable.

--Deborah
Deborah and all

I had ruminated about doing a similar entry as the "laws" pointing to the online availability of each state's Driver Manual for motorcycles when I ran across this site. It covers manuals as well! Sure would save a lot of work, and the accuracy might be better.

Al
Modératrice
2005 Cobalt Blue ET4
Joined: 13 Nov 2005
Posts: 6952
Location: Portland, OR
Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:50 am quote
Aviator47 wrote:
pdxvespa wrote:
Benito wrote:
Aviator47 wrote:
Would it be simpler to point to WWW.DMV.ORG? They have already cataloged the US.
Wow, that is a great resource for those of you in the USA.
+1. Thanks, Al; that's invaluable.

--Deborah
Deborah and all

I had ruminated about doing a similar entry as the "laws" pointing to the online availability of each state's Driver Manual for motorcycles when I ran across this site. It covers manuals as well! Sure would save a lot of work, and the accuracy might be better.

Al
It's a great find. Will you wiki-mods now edit this entry accordingly before we go public? I wonder (doubt) if there's anything comparable for the EU.
Size of a Chaffinch
PX 125 "The Bruise" (SOLD)
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 5542
Location: London
Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:12 am quote
There isn't really an EU equivalent to the DMV, and there's not even a British version since motoring is spread over a variety of agencies here.

A small write up might be better for European countries, with links pointing to relevant agencies for further info.
Moderator
2006 LX150 "Amadora"
Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 7129

Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:16 am quote
This Transport Canada site provides links to the relevant driver licensing agencies for the 10 provinces and 3 territories. Took a bit of digging to find it all in one spot!

http://www.tc.gc.ca/road/provinces.htm
Moderator
2010 Dragon Red GTS 300 Super, 2018 Grigio Titanio Piaggio Liberty S 150
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 16295
Location: Toronto, Canada, Fort Lauderdale, Florida
Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:22 am quote
harnadem wrote:
This Transport Canada site provides links to the relevant driver licensing agencies for the 10 provinces and 3 territories. Took a bit of digging to find it all in one spot!

http://www.tc.gc.ca/road/provinces.htm
Great find Michael, way to represent us Canadians.
Moderator
2006 LX150 "Amadora"
Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 7129

Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:26 am quote
Benito wrote:
harnadem wrote:
This Transport Canada site provides links to the relevant driver licensing agencies for the 10 provinces and 3 territories. Took a bit of digging to find it all in one spot!

http://www.tc.gc.ca/road/provinces.htm
Great find Michael, way to represent us Canadians.
Your health dollars at work - at least for a short while (You'll get it all back when I come in after hours ...)
Moderator
2006 PX 150 & Malossi Kitted Malaguti Yesterday (Wife's)
Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 12959
Location: Paros Island, Greece
Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:36 am quote
Might I suggest something like this:

North America:

Canada - The details for licensing in each of the provinces and territories as well as manuals can be found here.

United States - The details for licensing in each of the states as well as the driver manual for many states can be found here.

Europe:

United Kingdom -
Greece -
etc
Moderator
2010 Dragon Red GTS 300 Super, 2018 Grigio Titanio Piaggio Liberty S 150
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 16295
Location: Toronto, Canada, Fort Lauderdale, Florida
Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:55 am quote
Aviator47 wrote:
Might I suggest something like this:

North America:

Canada - The details for licensing in each of the provinces and territories as well as manuals can be found here.

United States - The details for licensing in each of the states as well as the driver manual for many states can be found here.

Europe:

United Kingdom -
Greece -
etc
Very good suggestion.
Modératrice
2005 Cobalt Blue ET4
Joined: 13 Nov 2005
Posts: 6952
Location: Portland, OR
Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:34 pm quote
Benito wrote:
Aviator47 wrote:
Might I suggest something like this:

North America:

Canada - The details for licensing in each of the provinces and territories as well as manuals can be found here.

United States - The details for licensing in each of the states as well as the driver manual for many states can be found here.

Europe:

United Kingdom -
Greece -
etc
Very good suggestion.
Agreed! And after Wonder and Al take care of the first two, perhaps this is just the sort of topic to invite wiki additions from members elsewhere.

--D
Moderator
2006 LX150 "Amadora"
Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 7129

Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:40 pm quote
Aviator47 wrote:
Might I suggest something like this:

North America:

Canada - The details for licensing in each of the provinces and territories as well as manuals can be found here.

United States - The details for licensing in each of the states as well as the driver manual for many states can be found here.

Europe:

United Kingdom -
Greece -
etc
Order it by membership size. US then Canada

Also, I didn't look through the Transport Canada site to see if manuals are available on the provincial links. I know that in Ontario, you have to buy one and there isn't an on-line version. BC has an on-line version, though.
Destroyer of Worlds
LML Star 125, Vespa GT200
Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 2010
Location: London, United Kingdom
Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:13 pm quote
Hi All! Sorry I've been away for a few days...

My original intent was to go beyond the dry licensing details and actually interpret what it means for us. For example:

"In California, all Vespa models require a M1 license. The MP3 is the only Piaggio product that can be operated with a class C (car license). All Vespa riders must wear a DOT-approved helmet and carry liability insurance. Riding in bike lanes is never legal, even for 50cc models, except in the last 200 feet before a right turn." Et cetera.

I've noticed there is a LOT of confusion about licensing and rules of the road for 50cc scooters, and I think a "These models are motorcycles, these other models are motor-driven cycles" list would be helpful. Especially since the CVC uses a completely different definition of "motorized scooter" than we do.

I'm not suggesting we duplicate other sources like DMV.org, rather we should apply and interpret the information as it applies to MV riders and present it more clearly. This goes beyond licensing to things like local quirks about parking enforcement. The NY Scooter Club has a great FAQ about NYC-specific issues, for example. I was thinking we could harness the power of community to create content like that for any location someone wishes to add.
Size of a Chaffinch
PX 125 "The Bruise" (SOLD)
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 5542
Location: London
Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:22 pm quote
ianfromnyc wrote:
I'm not suggesting we duplicate other sources like DMV.org, rather we should apply and interpret the information as it applies to MV riders and present it more clearly. This goes beyond licensing to things like local quirks about parking enforcement. The NY Scooter Club has a great FAQ about NYC-specific issues, for example. I was thinking we could harness the power of community to create content like that for any location someone wishes to add.
I think this is quite a useful idea for London people - riding here has its own special challenges compared to the rest of the UK, particularly on parking and etiket (sic).

Having looked at the NY Faq, I think there's a lot of cross over between their forum faq and our wiki. Without suggesting we use it wholesale it is a good reminder of what topics might be usefully added to our wiki.

http://www.nyscooterclub.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=3
Petty Tyrant
GTS250 GTS300 MP3 500
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 29652
Location: Bay Area, California
Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:40 pm quote
Wonder Machine wrote:
ianfromnyc wrote:
I'm not suggesting we duplicate other sources like DMV.org, rather we should apply and interpret the information as it applies to MV riders and present it more clearly. This goes beyond licensing to things like local quirks about parking enforcement. The NY Scooter Club has a great FAQ about NYC-specific issues, for example. I was thinking we could harness the power of community to create content like that for any location someone wishes to add.
I think this is quite a useful idea for London people - riding here has its own special challenges compared to the rest of the UK, particularly on parking and etiket (sic).
I concur. There dmv.org site is pretty comprehensive, but sometimes you just need a paragraph about state laws or, as Kate points out, specifics about a major city.
Wonder Machine wrote:
Having looked at the NY Faq, I think there's a lot of cross over between their forum faq and our wiki. Without suggesting we use it wholesale it is a good reminder of what topics might be usefully added to our wiki.

http://www.nyscooterclub.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=3
Their FAQ section was, over a long period of time and many twists and turns, the inspiration for this wiki. They may even be willing to let us hijack some of their material.
Destroyer of Worlds
LML Star 125, Vespa GT200
Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 2010
Location: London, United Kingdom
Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:41 pm quote
Wonder Machine wrote:
I think this is quite a useful idea for London people - riding here has its own special challenges compared to the rest of the UK, particularly on parking and etiket (sic).
Same applies to any big city, I imagine. Which actually reminds me, filtering is one of the topics I'm not sure DMV.org covers. Yes, they link to the driver manual for each state which then might mention it, but I envisioned this page as a place for people to distill and condense all that information into one easy-to-read place. I'd like to have key bullet points for everything a new rider needs to know, with links to the in-depth information should he or she desire it.
Wonder Machine wrote:
Having looked at the NY Faq, I think there's a lot of cross over between their forum faq and our wiki. Without suggesting we use it wholesale it is a good reminder of what topics might be usefully added to our wiki.

http://www.nyscooterclub.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=3
We have to be careful not to steal content that's not appropriately licensed. For example, Wikipedia uses the GNU Free Documentation License, which allows us to make non-commercial use of the content. Other sources publish under Creative Commons, with similar restrictions. However, I suppose we would have to ask the NYSC if they would like to add some or all of their info to our wiki once it goes live.

That begs the larger question, what kind of licensing should we adopt? How rigorous should our enforcement of copyright infringement be? Should we follow the wikipedia example and proactively remove any content that does not cite and link its source? In the discussion forum, such content is clearly the work of an individual author and not MV, but in the wiki format the content is not clearly tied to an individual author.

I think I'll create a new topic to discuss this.
Petty Tyrant
GTS250 GTS300 MP3 500
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 29652
Location: Bay Area, California
Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:34 pm quote
Added a note to the California section regarding helmet requirements.
Moderator
Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 5145
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa.
Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:28 pm quote
Quote:
sometimes you just need a paragraph about state laws
I agree, so following the form of the California info posted, I added similar info for Pennsylvania.
Destroyer of Worlds
LML Star 125, Vespa GT200
Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 2010
Location: London, United Kingdom
Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:32 pm quote
Score. I put CA in there as a template. It's nice that people are figuring this thing out without too much intervention. Let's hope it holds when we roll out to the general population!
Petty Tyrant
GTS250 GTS300 MP3 500
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 29652
Location: Bay Area, California
Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:20 pm quote
I nested the sections that Bobo was having trouble with.

And if anyone else wants to add information about their locality, we could surely use it.
Petty Tyrant
GTS250 GTS300 MP3 500
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 29652
Location: Bay Area, California
Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:25 pm quote
Bobo - Wasn't that Colorado where Mark and Patrick got popped? My memory is getting hazy already...
Molto Verboso
2017 Ducati Supersport S, 2014 Kawasaki Concours
Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 1006
Location: Murrieta, California
Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:34 pm quote
Military bases
Hi Jess and thefuzzylogic,

Here is a caveat regarding the MP3 and California licenses...if you work on a military base or intend to ride on a military base and own an MP3 (like I do), you have to have an M1 designation on your drivers license. If you don't have it, you won't get on the base.
Destroyer of Worlds
LML Star 125, Vespa GT200
Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 2010
Location: London, United Kingdom
Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:35 pm quote
Good to know. That's a nationwide DoD regulation, right? I'll add it as such.
Member
Penske rental truck/'09 BMW F800 ST
Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Posts: 5
Location: cape cod
Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:08 pm quote
ianfromnyc wrote:
I'm not suggesting we duplicate other sources like DMV.org, rather we should apply and interpret the information as it applies to MV riders and present it more clearly. This goes beyond licensing to things like local quirks about parking enforcement. The NY Scooter Club has a great FAQ about NYC-specific issues, for example. I was thinking we could harness the power of community to create content like that for any location someone wishes to add.
No way would dmv.org have that bit of insight about leaning over the line in Utah. Hell, they probably wanted to bust me for looking over the line while driving the truck in CBR 2008!

-dan
Molto Verboso
2017 Ducati Supersport S, 2014 Kawasaki Concours
Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 1006
Location: Murrieta, California
Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:50 pm quote
thefuzzylogic wrote:
Good to know. That's a nationwide DoD regulation, right? I'll add it as such.
Hi Ian,

Yes it is a nationwide DoD reg...I think the reasoning behind it was too many soldiers getting injured or killed because nothing was written in stone about taking classes and getting the M1 designation.
Petty Tyrant
GTS250 GTS300 MP3 500
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 29652
Location: Bay Area, California
Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:36 pm quote
Thanks for the edits, Scooterrific!
Resident Gentleman
--------2008 LX150-------- Dragon Red
Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Posts: 5045
Location: Brady, TX
Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:25 pm quote
Texas:

Helmets:

Effective September 1, 1997, persons at least 21 years old are exempt from wearing a motorcycle helmet if they:

* have successfully completed a motorcycle safety course, or
* are covered by a health insurance plan providing the person with at least $10,000 in medical benefits for injuries incurred as a result of an accident while operating or riding upon a motorcycle.


Scooter Licensing:

A scooter is not a legal vehicle classification so it will need to be registered as either a moped or motorcycle and you will be require to have a class M license (with or without the "K" restriction). By legal definition a moped must meet all three of the following criteria and be on our online Certified Moped List (see link below) prior to registration. If the moped in question meets the criteria, but is not on our list it may be added by following the directions on our website for submitting a Moped Affidavit (see link below). If a two-wheeled vehicle does not meet all three criteria it must be registered as a motorcycle.

* cannot attain a speed more than 30 miles per hour
* has a piston displacement of 50 cubic centimeters or less and
* does not require the operator to shift gears

www.txdps.state.tx.us/msb/documents/CurrentMopedList.pdf
www.txdps.state.tx.us/msb/documents/MopedAffidavit.pdf

Operator Licensing:

The operator of a motorcycle on a public highway must hold a valid motorcycle license (Class M driver license). This requirement also applies to operators of motor-driven cycles and mopeds.
To receive a license to operate a motorcycle, applicants must pass a written test covering traffic laws pertaining to motorcycles and a road test. The road test may be waived.

Texas Department of Safety Motorcycle Operator's Manual:
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/msb/dl-8.pdf
Petty Tyrant
GTS250 GTS300 MP3 500
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 29652
Location: Bay Area, California
Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:17 pm quote
danny*h wrote:
Texas:
Updated, and thanks for compiling that!
Resident Gentleman
--------2008 LX150-------- Dragon Red
Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Posts: 5045
Location: Brady, TX
Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:31 pm quote
jess wrote:
danny*h wrote:
Texas:
Updated, and thanks for compiling that!
Glad I could add my small contribution.
Molto Verboso
GT60
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 1381
Location: Fraser Valley, BC
Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:20 am quote
Sorry, wiki-impaired.

British Columbia, Canada


Driver Licensing Requirements for Motorcycle, Moped and Motor Scooter Operators
You need a Class 6 or 8 driver’s licence to operate most motorcycles.
Some small motorcycles can be operated with any class of licence.

Q. Do I need a special class of driver’s licence to ride a motorcycle?
A. To operate a motorcycle, you need a Class 6 or 8 driver’s licence.

Q. Are there any kinds of motorcycles that I can ride without obtaining a Class 6 or 8 driver’s licence?
A. You are permitted to operate a Limited Speed Motorcycle with any class of driver’s licence. You can not operate on a learner’s licence other than a
Class 6 or 8 motorcycle learner’s licence. These are motorcycles, mopeds and motor scooters with:
•an engine displacement of 50 cc or less (or less than 1.5 kW of power if other than a piston engine),
•a transmission that does not require shifting or a clutch,
•a maximum speed of 70 km/h,
•wheels that are at least 254 mm (10 inches) in diameter and
•a dry weight of 95 kg or less.

Q. What are some examples of Limited Speed Motorcycles available in BC?
•50 cc motor scooters that meet the Limited Speed Motorcycle definition
•Mopeds

Q. What kinds of motor scooters are considered Limited Speed Motorcycles?
A. Motor scooters differ from other motorcycles. On a motor scooter, the engine is mounted under an enclosure below and behind the rider. A motor scooter usually has an automatic transmission and a platform for the rider’s feet, which also provides some weather protection. The design of the motor scooter results in distinct handling characteristics.
The majority of motor scooters sold in B.C. are 50 cc or less and are Limited Speed Motorcycles. These may be operated with any class of driver’s licence. However, some motor scooters are over 50 cc. A Class 6 or 8 driver’s licence is required to operate a motor scooter that is not a Limited Speed Motorcycle.

Q Besides the appropriate class of driver’s licence , what else is required to ride a motorcycle?
A. All motorcycles, including Limited Speed Motorcycles, must be licensed and insured. Riders must wear a motorcycle helmet.

Q. What do I have to do to obtain a licence to operate a motorcycle?
A. Details of how to obtain a Class 6 or 8 driver’s licence, including knowledge and road testing requirements, are found in RoadSense for Riders: BC’s Safe Riding Guide, available free at any ICBC driver licensing office and on www.icbc.com.

Q. Are there any restrictions that may be placed on a Class 6 or 8 licence?
A. Your licence may be restricted depending on the type or size of motorcycle used for your road test:
•If you take your road test on a motorcycle 200 cc or less, you will be issued a licence restricting you from carrying passengers.
•If you take your road test on a motor scooter, you will be issued a licence restricting you to riding motor scooters only.
•If you take your road test on a trike or on a motorcycle with sidecar, you will be issued a licence restricting you to riding only three- wheeled motorcycles.

Q. Where can I get more information?
Call 1-800-950-1498 or visit www.icbc.com
Petty Tyrant
GTS250 GTS300 MP3 500
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 29652
Location: Bay Area, California
Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:09 am quote
Woodenhead - Thanks for the info. I take it this is BC-specific, and the other provinces have their own laws?
Molto Verboso
GT60
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 1381
Location: Fraser Valley, BC
Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:36 am quote
jess wrote:
Woodenhead - Thanks for the info. I take it this is BC-specific, and the other provinces have their own laws?
That's right, the provinces all have different rules/laws regarding scooters/mopeds/motorcycles.

cheers
Banned
2:6
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 7402
Location: San Francisco
Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:31 am quote
Regarding lane splitting in California:

My memory is that it use to be explicitly legal with rules about how to do it. It may be that the CHP just use to define how to do it but that it was not in the VC. Anyhow they seem to have given that up for the term "safe" that they can bend as they see fit. I have searched for older copies of the VC with no luck.

All that said the rules they use to give were a good guide to what is "safe" so here it is.
1. You may only split between lanes that are capable of travel in the same direction.
2. you may not exceed 10mph faster than the flow of traffic. CHP recommended 8MPH faster then traffic as the safest.

As it's not the official rule anymore it may be useful to add it or link it from the lane splitting section.
Petty Tyrant
GTS250 GTS300 MP3 500
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 29652
Location: Bay Area, California
Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:33 am quote
oopsclunkthud wrote:
Regarding lane splitting in California
Updated. Thanks!
Molto Verboso
1979 p200e
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 1203
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:20 pm quote
Louisiana:

1. Enforced helmet laws in place here. Everyone must wear a helmet with DOT approval.

2. Any motorcycle/scooter that is over 49cc must be registered, insured, and inspected, and any operator must have an M endorsement on their license.

3. There is no motorcycle learners permit here.

4. To receive a motorcycle endorsement, you must have a valid driver's license and then you must take a written evaluation exam and an on-cycle evaluation.

5. Taking a certified MSF course will allow you to be exempt from taking the on-cycle evaluation.

That's all i can think of off the top of my head, I'm sure there's alot more. If i think of something else I'll add it in the wiki after this has been added.
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