MP3 500 air filter filling with oil, any ideas why?
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MP3 500
Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 174
Location: Costa Mesa, CA
Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:23 am quote
I have had my MP3 500 for about 5 or 6 weeks now and it has 1300 miles on it. I was very easy on it for the first 600 miles and after that I really do not ride it hard. I do ride on the freeway about 25 miles per day but at an easy 65-70.
My question/problem is that the site drain bubble on the lower back of the oil filter keeps getting full of oil. I now see the drain line that goes out and forward is also full of oil. I have drained it the last 2 nights and after 12 miles of riding and then sitting for a couple of hours it is full again. The scooter runs great and has no smoke or evidence of oil coming out the exhaust. I'm going to call the dealer next and see what they think. Anyhbody here have any ideas?

Brandon
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Joined: 24 Apr 2008
Posts: 2919

Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:33 pm quote
They just didn't squeeze enough oil out of your filter when they cleaned and re-oiled it.

Not big deal. you can pull it out and squeeze a little more oil out or it willl drip out.

DO NOT "RING" the filter out by twisting it. just squeeze the excess oil out.

Wayne B
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MP3 500
Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 174
Location: Costa Mesa, CA
Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:47 pm quote
I let it drain for most of the weekend, it seams to be sucking oil from the engine breather. It only drains more oil after I have been riding.
Hooked
Piaggio MP3/250
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 456
Location: Columbia, Missouri USA!
Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:31 pm quote
There are two things that I think I read it could be.

1. I think there is a breather hose on the gas tank and over filling the gas can drain into the filter.

2. There is a crankcase breather that feeds to the filter too and it could be coming from there. One possibility is there is too much oil in the engine.

But it is just a guess.

Are you losing oil level too?

It could be an over oiled filter as suggested but I would think it would have to be very over oiled to do it for long.

Others will chime in I'm sure.
Hooked
MP3 500
Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 174
Location: Costa Mesa, CA
Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:36 pm quote
I checked the oil this weekend and it was down a little, still above the lower line so I brought it up to a little over the mid way point. I wonder if it is saturated in oil could the intake suction just be so much that it is just pulling oil from the breather. I think I will take the cleaner apart tonight and clean it out and see what happens unless somebody comes up with another idea.
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ScooterTrap.com
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 483
Location: Orlando, FL
Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:21 pm quote
My MP3 500 has been doing the same thing. Another mechanic and I were in the process of figuring it out and I think you might have the right idea.... the filter being too satuated and it's sucking oil from the crankcase through the breather. Let me know what you find out as I'm sure more will experience this as well. BTW, the mechanic is a Piaggio one and he is contacting them to find out if this is an epidemic or just a fluke.

Matt C.
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MP3 500
Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 174
Location: Costa Mesa, CA
Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:41 pm quote
I just opened my air filter and it is damp but not soaked and I really cannot get too much out of it. The oil is coming from the breather. The air intake to the filter is smaller than the intake to the engine so I wonder if it needs more air holes into the filter. I'm going to clean it all up and make sure the breather and intake are both clear and clean. Then I will drive it some more tomorrow and see what happens.

Anybody else see this happening to their 500's?
Addicted
MP3 500
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Posts: 556
Location: St. Augustine, Florida
Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:35 pm quote
I noticed that there is a little glass bulb on the bottom of the air breather case. When I took my bike in for its 600 mile service, the bulb was almost full of oil. When it came back the bulb was empty.

I'd say this is a maintenance item. ie, when the bulb is full, clean your filter.
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The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:39 pm quote
It can be left longer than that - mine just gets done at the 6000 mile service interval, every 3-4 months.
Member
MP3 500
Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 8
Location: North Central Massachusetts
Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:59 am quote
I just picked up my 500 yesterday and drove it 80 miles home. The oil bulb on the filter assembly was full before it even left the dealer. I had some backfiring issues on the way home while throttling down. I am going to take apart the air cleaner assembly today to see if it is soaked in oil.

Will follow up with findings.
Molto Verboso
Kymco Downtown 300i ABS
Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 1005
Location: UK
Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:32 am quote
Oil Level
Sorry to state the obvious but you are checking the oil level with the dipstick fully screwed in I hope ? Dealers often overfill or fail to check.

regards Roadster
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MP3 500
Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 8
Location: North Central Massachusetts
Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:00 am quote
The oil dipstick is at the lowest mark so it is not overfilled with oil. I took off the cover for the air filter and lo and behold there was an awful lot of oil in there. I squeezed out the excess oil, drained the bulb, and reassembled. Drove for 10 miles and so far so good, no oil in the bulb.
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Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 20982
Location: Kingston, Tennessee, Tn
Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:11 am quote
I am doing my own service on both my MP3's and I use the K & N air filter cleaning kit you get from the auto parts store ( have K & N on my truck as well ) the cleaner does an excellent jod of cleaning and the spray oil is great as well, it really traps all those fine dust particals. depending on your riding habits it might pay you to clean the filter more regular like say every 1000 - 1500 miles. this will also help keep gas mileage high and only takes 20 min to do plus drying time. do not use compressed air to help speed the drying process as it could tear the foam.
Hooked
MP3 500
Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 174
Location: Costa Mesa, CA
Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:28 am quote
The clear bulb on the back is not the only drain, there is also a long tube in the dront that hangs down but has a plug in it. That one will fill up first then when it is full the rear bulb will fill up. I will have about 150 miles on mine by this weekend and see how it is doing then.
Banned
Joined: 24 Apr 2008
Posts: 2919

Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:53 pm quote
old as dirt wrote:
I am doing my own service on both my MP3's and I use the K & N air filter .
Just an FYI.
Are you using a K & N Air Filter?? I hope not, you do know a K&N is going to let more dirt in, it has been found that K&N filters do NOT filter near as good as OEM filters. Most people won't believe me when I try and tell them this. Please take your K&N and throw it in the trash.

Ford will void the warranty on the Power Stoke Diesel if they find a K&N Air Filter in the air box.

Wayne B
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Piaggio MP3/250
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 456
Location: Columbia, Missouri USA!
Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:18 pm quote
Wayne B wrote:
old as dirt wrote:
I am doing my own service on both my MP3's and I use the K & N air filter .
Just an FYI.

Ford will void the warranty on the Power Stoke Diesel if they find a K&N Air Filter in the air box.

Wayne B
Urban legend. Federal law prohibits Ford from doing that.

http://www.knfilters.com/warrantyletter.htm
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Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
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Location: Kingston, Tennessee, Tn
Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:19 pm quote
Wayne B wrote:
old as dirt wrote:
I am doing my own service on both my MP3's and I use the K & N air filter .
Just an FYI.
Are you using a K & N Air Filter?? I hope not, you do know a K&N is going to let more dirt in, it has been found that K&N filters do NOT filter near as good as OEM filters. Most people won't believe me when I try and tell them this. Please take your K&N and throw it in the trash.

Ford will void the warranty on the Power Stoke Diesel if they find a K&N Air Filter in the air box.

Wayne B
Wayne I don't know of K & N product for the MP3 yet and doubt they will make 1 (small market) however I do use one on my truck and its is properly serviced actually double oiled every time and have not had any dust blow by into the intake.
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Joined: 24 Apr 2008
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Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:32 pm quote
If you are double oiling it you have a good chance of it taking out the Mass Air Flow Sensor. GM has a SSM (Special Service Notice) about that.

Unless you have opened the exhaust & got rid of the cat the K&N isn't doing a thing anyway.

Wayne B
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Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
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Location: Kingston, Tennessee, Tn
Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:48 pm quote
Wayne B wrote:
If you are double oiling it you have a good chance of it taking out the Mass Air Flow Sensor. GM has a SSM (Special Service Notice) about that.

Unless you have opened the exhaust & got rid of the cat the K&N isn't doing a thing anyway.

Wayne B
ok I hear you but http://www.knfilters.com/MAF/massairfindings.htm
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That One!
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 508
Location: On The Left
Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:08 pm quote
Re: MP3 500 air filter filling with oil, any ideas why?
brlowe wrote:
I have had my MP3 500 for about 5 or 6 weeks now and it has 1300 miles on it. I was very easy on it for the first 600 miles and after that I really do not ride it hard. I do ride on the freeway about 25 miles per day but at an easy 65-70.
My question/problem is that the site drain bubble on the lower back of the oil filter keeps getting full of oil. I now see the drain line that goes out and forward is also full of oil. I have drained it the last 2 nights and after 12 miles of riding and then sitting for a couple of hours it is full again. The scooter runs great and has no smoke or evidence of oil coming out the exhaust. I'm going to call the dealer next and see what they think. Anyhbody here have any ideas?

Brandon


Last edited by johnwwwatson on Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:48 am; edited 1 time in total
Hooked
MP3 500 , passion red
Joined: 17 Apr 2008
Posts: 154
Location: oregon
Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:11 pm quote
oil
where do you think the engine oil ends up when it is overfilled?
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The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 36653
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:17 pm quote
Chorus:

"In the air filter!"
Hooked
ScooterTrap.com
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 483
Location: Orlando, FL
Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:00 am quote
I'm starting the think that there is a design flaw with the breather tube leading from the engine to the air box. Maybe changing the straight tube and putting in one with a hump would prevent the oil from transferring to the air box. Kinda like a reverse sink trap... any thoughts?

Matt C.
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Joined: 22 Jul 2008
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Location: Glendale AZ (was Albury NSW)
Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:40 am quote
manfetti wrote:
I'm starting the think that there is a design flaw with the breather tube leading from the engine to the air box. Maybe changing the straight tube and putting in one with a hump would prevent the oil from transferring to the air box. Kinda like a reverse sink trap... any thoughts?
Maybe.

I don't think there is room but a spiral coil of clear hose rising above the breather exit on the crankcase cover would also allow some of the oil to separate and return.

The air needs room to expand to allow the hot oil mist to separate and drain back.

All the best

Trevor G
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MP3 500
Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Posts: 481
Location: Rexburg Idaho
Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:16 pm quote
Are there any updates or new findings to this thread? I have started to have this problem.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Reprehensible Misinformant
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Location: Winchester, California
Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:38 pm quote
manfetti wrote:
I'm starting the think that there is a design flaw with the breather tube leading from the engine to the air box. Maybe changing the straight tube and putting in one with a hump would prevent the oil from transferring to the air box. Kinda like a reverse sink trap... any thoughts?

Matt C.
Turkman has had the same thing on his GTS, with much oil finding it's way into his airbox, and he put a loop in a longer breather tube, eliminating the scavenging of motor oil from the breather system into the airbox. He's a smart cookie, and we've discussed this off-line and I believe that fixed it for him. Maybe he'll chime in with the details.
Hooked
ScooterTrap.com
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 483
Location: Orlando, FL
Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:23 am quote
A loop is a great idea as well. I will let you know if my new engine allows the same thing to happen when I get my MP3 back in a week or so.

Matt C.
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RIP: MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
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Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:53 am quote
manfetti wrote:
A loop is a great idea as well. I will let you know if my new engine allows the same thing to happen when I get my MP3 back in a week or so.

Matt C.
New engine? What happened? (just idle curiosity)
Hooked
ScooterTrap.com
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 483
Location: Orlando, FL
Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:31 am quote
Not sure exactly, but the innards blew up. Just driving along and poof!! I'm getting a whole new engine because this one is TOAST!

pistonview.jpg
Piston view

Veni, Vidi, Posti
Reprehensible Misinformant
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Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:16 pm quote
manfetti wrote:
Not sure exactly, but the innards blew up. Just driving along and poof!! I'm getting a whole new engine because this one is TOAST!
that would be the second one I heard of doing so
Hooked
MP3 500
Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Posts: 481
Location: Rexburg Idaho
Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:19 pm quote
Matt, how many miles did you have on it?
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2013 Can Am Spyder RSS
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Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:21 pm quote
mattgordon wrote:
Turkman has had the same thing on his GTS, with much oil finding it's way into his airbox, and he put a loop in a longer breather tube, eliminating the scavenging of motor oil from the breather system into the airbox. He's a smart cookie, and we've discussed this off-line and I believe that fixed it for him. Maybe he'll chime in with the details.
The blow-by that I had in the air filter of my GTS drove me crazy. It leaked out the air filter box and ended up on the belt housing cover. I'd check the oil and it wasn't down. I thought there's to much pressure coming from the breather and pulling a small amount of oil out. I was thinking maybe it needs a set of rings or the breather valve was bad......I understand that it's really not a valve but just a small opening to vent the engine. I tried a loop in the breather hose. Problem solved. The loop doesn't fill with oil and my air cleaner box is dry.

Checks in the mail Matt for saying I'm smart
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The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:40 pm quote
mattgordon wrote:
manfetti wrote:
Not sure exactly, but the innards blew up. Just driving along and poof!! I'm getting a whole new engine because this one is TOAST!
that would be the second one I heard of doing so
Third. One in the UK early on, and now two in the US. Duff crankshafts?
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Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:38 pm quote
jimc wrote:
mattgordon wrote:
manfetti wrote:
Not sure exactly, but the innards blew up. Just driving along and poof!! I'm getting a whole new engine because this one is TOAST!
that would be the second one I heard of doing so
Third. One in the UK early on, and now two in the US. Duff crankshafts?
That doesn't make me feel ANY better! In percentages, likely not worth a second thought. But....
Hooked
ScooterTrap.com
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 483
Location: Orlando, FL
Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:14 pm quote
I had 4200 miles on her when she blew.... wait, that might be bad terminology!

And Randy, I said it was good idea, not that you were smart.... j/k!!

Matt C.
Hooked
MP3 500
Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Posts: 481
Location: Rexburg Idaho
Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:36 pm quote
manfetti wrote:
I had 4200 miles on her when she blew.... wait, that might be bad terminology!

And Randy, I said it was good idea, not that you were smart.... j/k!!

Matt C.
Yeah, that means you didn't perform very well.
Hooked
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Location: Glendale AZ (was Albury NSW)
Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:35 am quote
jimc wrote:
Third. One in the UK early on, and now two in the US. Duff crankshafts?
Nothing to do with the crankshaft based on the pic posted above.

That appears to be a hole melted in the piston crown, produced in one (or more) of these ways:

1) Incorrect ignition timing - usually over-advanced, but retarded can produce the same results

2) Lean fuel/air mixture - faulty ECU or sensor(s)

3) Poor quality fuel - the lack of a knock sensor means the ECU cannot compensate, as in 1) also.

4) A hot-spot in the combustion chamber - such as a piece of aluminum swarf or some carbon which overheats and causes pre-ignition

5) Wrong heat range spark plug fitted.

The symptoms would be:

a) a tinkling or plinking sound coming from the engine, especially under load

b) a gradual, sustained loss of power.

The cylinder head would help identify the culprit(s), as would a fuel check.

All the best

Trevor G

Last edited by Trevor_G on Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:14 am; edited 1 time in total
Addicted
MP3 500
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Posts: 556
Location: St. Augustine, Florida
Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:13 pm quote
Three engines in two years across two continents? That just makes me want to buy Piaggio stock. In thousands of bikes, thats a catastrophic failure rate of 0.0000000000000000000000000000000001
Hooked
MP3 500
Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Posts: 481
Location: Rexburg Idaho
Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:15 pm quote
Took my 500 to the dealer the other day in regards to the oil leaking into the airfilter. I suggested the loop in the hose that has been done before on Turkman's GTS or whatever he has. I believe they discussed it with Piaggio and got that approved. I'll be able to pick it up tomorrow and I'll post a pic of what it looks like. The tech stated that at high speeds, the engine oil is misting like crazy and the way the hose is designed, catches it and it ends up draining over to the air filter. So, perhaps a design flaw on piaggio's part. Will post tomorrow evening (hopefully it's not too dark to take a picture)
Hooked
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Location: Glendale AZ (was Albury NSW)
Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:12 am quote
hepworth wrote:
at high speeds, the engine oil is misting like crazy and the way the hose is designed, catches it and it ends up draining over to the air filter.
That's what it is supposed to do - allow the engine to "breathe" from under the piston crown.

The problem for the 500 is that so much air is moved each piston stroke that the breather system, which appears to be adequate for the 250, just cannot handle the extra capacity.

By looping or coiling the breather line, extra capacity is created to allow the oil mist to cool, condense and return to whence it came. Raising the tube's height through a loop increases the "hill" it has to flow over before it reaches the airbox.

I also think you will find that it is important that the loop is higher than the line, not lower, otherwise oil could pool in the bottom of the loop and potentially block off the breather.

All the best

Trevor G
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