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This bike is just too complex with the cooling, injection system. When this bike is out of warranty - yikes!! I've studied the workshop manual between the GTS & LX. 309 pages vs 243. The LX is a clear winner in simplicity. So I can go 75mph. The LX will be far more reliable when the high mileage gets going.
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Re: I'm not buying the GTS
Sprocket wrote:
...too complex with the cooling, injection system....
What The? emoticon I suppose you still drive an old VW Beetle? The air-cooled kind with a carb?

Really, liquid cooling isn't that complex any more. Fuel injection has also become very reliable in the past few decades.

Don't fret it, get the GTS. 8)
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Fuel injection has a lot fewer small, wearable parts. There have been a number of problems reported with Vespas which are related to carburetion. While I realize the GTS has only been available for about one year, and only since January 1 or so in the US, still there has not been any significant discussion of any problem with the fuel injection.

It WILL be interesting to see who this situation looks at higher mileages.
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The modern Vespas are pretty reliable regardless of the cooling system (knock wood) so I think you should make your choice based on the type of driving you expect to do.

If you're just popping around town then the LX is definitely the choice, but if you're planning on doing any serious touring or if your daily ride requires speeds of 50 m.p.h. and above then I think you'd do well with the GTS or a used GT.
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Water cooling can be a nightmare on bikes - head gaskets, hoses leak, water pumps fail, the electric fan can be annoying. I see no reason get a bike with.
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Fi and water cooling = more efficient (leaner) combustion and more power. The GT/GTS is 70+ pounds more but gets 65+mpg at easy/consistent 65-70mph. The LX 55-60 mpg and 55 easy consistent mph.
I agree with you, KISS principle but the only liability to me with water cooling is the water pump (they do wear out) and the FI (to early to tell but so far so good) some BMW riders call them 'fool injection', but thier is always the carb'd GT200.

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Sprocket wrote:
Water cooling can be a nightmare on bikes - head gaskets, hoses leak, water pumps fail, the electric fan can be annoying. I see no reason get a bike with.
You might be right, but what about the guy, Mike Lynch who rode his GT200 from Florida to Alaska......I don't think he had much trouble at all, just needed tires.
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Long distance touring/scootering
.......................also check out Mike's posts under "getting fickle in my old age"......amazing!
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Have never had a problem with fuel injection on my automobiles, but have had to rebuild a few carburettors. Did a google for fuel injection problems. This site is worth a look. http://www.autoeducation.com/autoshop101/fuel.htm

Get the GTS, you'll love it.
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When I bought a motorcycle, I went out of my way to find one with fuel injection. I really didn't want another carb to have to mess with. And I'll take the stable engine temperature of a liquid cooling system over air-cooled any day. I can still remember how many VWs I saw in my youth, on the side of the road fully engulfed in flames, while the helpless driver sat by and watched.
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I haven't been around here all that long but I can't recall ever seeing a thread about cooling or fuel injection problems on the GTS. Even though the GTS is quite new to the market place if these areas were of concern, I'm sure we would have heard of problems surfacing by now.

Modern fuel injection is insanely reliable and I would place a hefty bet on it over a carb any day of the week. As an example, in the automobile world, I don't think you can even buy a new car with a carb, and as such the yearly tune up has gone the way of the Dodo bird.

I think you are reading far too much into these areas and looking for problems that at this time don't exist. It's your choice though, and you have to buy what will make you happy and what you will feel comfortable with.


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Chas,
I think your mpg numbers for the LX are way low. My wife has always gotten better than 67 mpg on hers, and upwards of 80 mpg occasionally. My Derbi (same engine as the LX) usually gets in the mid-70's.
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I am sure that LX can do better as would GT and possibly even better with the GTS, only to get higher the output of either engine which is less mph with the LX that it will also effect the mpg more so on the LX. The law of deminishing returns catches up faster with an air-cooled/smaller displacement engine. Thier is a big advantage to watercooled engine that do (could) out weigh the liabilities. And for fuel injection and carbs, my 2 cents are (a) I can fix any carb in my sleep, at home or traveling and (b) until they (paiggio) makes FI diagnostic tools available to the general public aka not dealer dependant, then I will pass. OBD2 is available easly on cars/trucks and motorcycles/scooter should too. But FI has lots of advantages and possibly very reliable (to be seen).

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Chetwynder wrote:
I haven't been around here all that long but I can't recall ever seeing a thread about cooling or fuel injection problems on the GTS. Even though the GTS is quite new to the market place if these areas were of concern, I'm sure we would have heard of problems surfacing by now.

Modern fuel injection is insanely reliable and I would place a hefty bet on it over a carb any day of the week. As an example, in the automobile world, I don't think you can even buy a new car with a carb, and as such the yearly tune up has gone the way of the Dodo bird.

I think you are reading far too much into these areas and looking for problems that at this time don't exist. It's your choice though, and you have to buy what will make you happy and what you will feel comfortable with.


Dave
Being a first production year 'unknown'... the fact that this was the first fuel injected Vespa was the driving force behind my decision to upgrade to the 3 year warranty.

As soon as you put a computer in there instead of a carburator... you're right - the potential for an expensive repair bill is there. Warranty = the safety net you're looking for. As Dave said above - modern FI systems are pretty robust. If it's going to break... it will be in the first year or so.
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Quote:
I can still remember how many VWs I saw in my youth, on the side of the road fully engulfed in flames, while the helpless driver sat by and watched.
That hurts......(experence speaks)

At least they were easy to work on......

If they wern't, they would be called "YUGOs"

R

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I had to make a choice based on cooling type and fuel delivery, liquid cooling would usually get the nod, as would fuel injection. In an ideal world, I would have a liquid cooled, direct injected 2 stroke. You know, no valve train to simplify things enough to balance out the DI system. Liquid cooling is pretty well understood these days, and if designed right shouldn't be a problem.
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Re: I'm not buying the GTS
Sprocket wrote:
This bike is just too complex with the cooling, injection system. When this bike is out of warranty - yikes!! I've studied the workshop manual between the GTS & LX. 309 pages vs 243. The LX is a clear winner in simplicity. So I can go 75mph. The LX will be far more reliable when the high mileage gets going.
I don't imagine you still watch VHS , or listen to vinyl albums or 8 tracks, and DVD players etc are clearly more complex devices than either of the former. Point is, disc brakes, ABS, computerized FI systems all are are intrinsically more complex than the predecessors, but you still have them....they're no novelty. That said, in terms of technology, neither water cooled, or fuel injected bikes are new, uncharted areas (my 2000 Victory V92C was FI AND liquid cooled....dead reliable too In fact a common upgrade for many Harleys is to go FI, and toss the carb). This is LEADING EDGE technology, not BLEEDING EDGE, and inasmuch, the marketplace determines the costs of repair/replacement etc.

At some point in time, techs that even understand carburation and air-cooling will be the exception not the rule.

I'm not a bit worried about the cost of repairing FI or liquid cooled GTS. It is what it is. It will be no more expensive to repair than a GT or LX, and the odds of failure are no greater. Probably less, but thats another discussion.
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fyi: Victory MC's are air cooled with oil radiator.
Chas
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Chetwynder wrote:
...in the automobile world, I don't think you can even buy a new car with a carb...
I believe the last carbureted vehicle, sold in the US, was the '88 Isuzu P'up truck.

And you can't even get an air-cooled Porsche anymore.
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mongoose wrote:
I believe the last carbureted vehicle, sold in the US, was the '88 Isuzu P'up truck.
I think I remember one of my coworkers having an '89 or '90 Pontiac Grand Am that was carbureted. I only remember this because my '88 Grand Am had the Quad 4 engine with FI, and his had some lowlier engine with a carb. I was feeling superior at the time.
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jess wrote:
mongoose wrote:
I believe the last carbureted vehicle, sold in the US, was the '88 Isuzu P'up truck.
I think I remember one of my coworkers having an '89 or '90 Pontiac Grand Am that was carbureted. I only remember this because my '88 Grand Am had the Quad 4 engine with FI, and his had some lowlier engine with a carb. I was feeling superior at the time.
I guess I'll do some research, then. I have to know this kind of useless automotive trivia. Nerd emoticon
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jess wrote:
mongoose wrote:
I believe the last carbureted vehicle, sold in the US, was the '88 Isuzu P'up truck.
I think I remember one of my coworkers having an '89 or '90 Pontiac Grand Am that was carbureted. I only remember this because my '88 Grand Am had the Quad 4 engine with FI, and his had some lowlier engine with a carb. I was feeling superior at the time.
Actually GM was the first manufacturer to fully computer-control their automobiles, rolled out in '81 and '82. The last year for a carbureted GM car was '87 or '88. It might have been a 4 cylinder '87 Grand Am.

The last maker to sell carbureted mass production vehicles in the US was, oddly enough, Honda. They had that lean-burn system on the old Civics and Accords.
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chas1969 wrote:
fyi: Victory MC's are air cooled with oil radiator.
Chas
They hold 6 qts oil (synth) circulating around the cylinders, and a heat intercooler (radiator) with fan. The cooling fins on the cylinders are for looks. They aren't air cooled in the traditional sense I think you're thinking of. They're liquid cooloed.
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Just researching, Jess, not flaming.
jess wrote:
I think I remember one of my coworkers having an '89 or '90 Pontiac Grand Am that was carbureted.
Wikipedia wrote:
1985-1991
The Grand Am was reintroduced to Pontiac as a modern compact car by GM in 1985 to replace the Phoenix. It began its third generation and was based on the N platform, along with its siblings are the Buick Somerset (later renamed as the Skylark) and the Oldsmobile Cutlass Calais with a new smaller appearance and finer look. In 1986, a four-door sedan was added to the lineup. The third generation Grand Am was offered in two trim levels, the LE, and SE. The SE wasn't available in 1985. In 1989, the LE became the base model. The 2.5 L Tech IV engine was standard from 1985 to 1991. Although the engine was noisy and a bit underpowered in earlier models, it received balance shafts and an upgrade in power for 1989. A 3.0 L V6 was optional from 1985 to 1988. From 1987 to 1989, a turbocharged 2.0 L four-cylinder making 165 hp was optional on SE models. The 2.3 L Quad-4 was optional in 150 hp form from 1988 to 1989 on all models. A high output version of the Quad-4 that produced 180 hp was initially offered as an option on mid-1989 SE models and remained the top engine choice through 1991.
further
Wikipedia wrote:
Tech IV
Iron Dukes were fitted with fuel injection (via a single injector in the throttle body) in 1982. This version was christened the Tech IV, though Car and Driver later ridiculed it as the low-Tech IV. Power output remained at 90 hp (67 kW).

This was replaced by a swirl-port head with 9.0:1 (instead of 8.2:1) compression ratio in 1984 for a 2 hp (1.5 kW) gain. Other additions for 1985 included roller lifters, improved bearings, and a new crankshaft.

A more-modern serpentine belt and crank-triggered ignition was added in 1987. The engine was updated one final time the next year with balance shafts, new pistons, rods, crankshaft, and an in-pan oiling system. This 1988 Tech IV produced 98 hp (73 kW).

The Tech IV uses the same bellhousing pattern as the 2.8 L 60-Degree V6.

Applications:

1985-1993 Chevrolet S-10 Blazer/GMC S-15 Jimmy
1984-1988 Pontiac Fiero
1985-1991 Pontiac Grand Am, Pontiac 6000, Oldsmobile Cutlass Calais
1985-1987 Buick Somerset
1986-1991 Buick Skylark
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Bzzz wrote:
The last year for a carbureted GM car was '87 or '88. It might have been a 4 cylinder '87 Grand Am.
Could be. That whole period is kinda hazy -- I was living in Wisconsin at the time.
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Coming from the vintage bike world, liquid cooling and fuel injection are a godsend. No rejetting? No heat seizing? Doesn't get any simpler than that!
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Bryce Ludwig wrote:
I had to make a choice based on cooling type and fuel delivery, liquid cooling would usually get the nod, as would fuel injection. In an ideal world, I would have a liquid cooled, direct injected 2 stroke. You know, no valve train to simplify things enough to balance out the DI system. Liquid cooling is pretty well understood these days, and if designed right shouldn't be a problem.
I agree. My #1 reason for a GTS was to get away from carb issues I had with the GT. It leaked and they finally replaced it under warranty. It was an early GT with a Walbro or Dellorto or whatever they had originally. The replacement was the Keihin as used later. The Keihin leaked gas around the accelerator pump on hot days but was way better for driveability.

Also, is it possible the GTS runs cooler? The engine seems less hot versus the GT after a ride. My fan has only come on once, in heavy traffic on a group ride on a hot day. The two GT riders that day said their fans came on three seperate times, and we were all riding together. Maybe it's 'cause the engine works less in the stop-and-go, what with all that extra torque.

Having said that, let me also say that the GTS' digital temp gauge is worthless. When the fan came on it was right in middle. They have apparently followed what car makers have done for years: Make the temp gauge intentionally vague so it only indicates whether the engine is "cold" or "everything else". Cold is when the gauge is at or near 'C', and everything else (including 220+ degree coolant temps) is when the gauge being in the middle. At least with the GT you can tell how relatively hot your coolant is.
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Bzzz wrote:
Actually GM was the first manufacturer to fully computer-control their automobiles, rolled out in '81 and '82.
My wife has an '81 Camaro Z28. Being comp. controlled makes modifying the carb, dizzy and transmission expensive.
Bzzz wrote:
The last year for a carbureted GM car was '87 or '88. It might have been a 4 cylinder '87 Grand Am.
My mom had an '85 Blazer that was carbed. In '86, Blazers got TBI. See above post about Grand Ams.
Bzzz wrote:
The last maker to sell carbureted mass production vehicles in the US was, oddly enough, Honda. They had that lean-burn system on the old Civics and Accords.
I'll research the base models, Nerd emoticon but the top model, the Civic S was carbed in '85. The '86 Civic Si had PGM-FI. Guess how cheesed I was because I had an '85...
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jess wrote:
Bzzz wrote:
The last year for a carbureted GM car was '87 or '88. It might have been a 4 cylinder '87 Grand Am.
Could be. That whole period is kinda hazy -- I was living in Wisconsin at the time.
Hey now! Be nice.
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mongoose wrote:
The 2.5 L Tech IV engine was standard from 1985 to 1991.
Sounds like that's probably what my coworker had, then. I think I must have assumed (incorrectly, it seems) that it was carbureted because of the odd (compared to mine) air intake, which (again, the memory is hazy) resembled a standard round air filter housing that you'd typically find on top of a carb. I never actually inspected any farther than that, though.
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It's OK, Jess. The early throttle body injection that GM used looked like a carb.
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mongoose wrote:
It's OK, Jess. The early throttle body injection that GM used looked like a carb.
Well that's a bit of a relief for my beleaguered memory.
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...and thanks for doing the research! I couldn't find any good solid information on it. Never thought of checking wikipedia.
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EFI
The only thing i own now thats got a carb is my lawn mower and weedwacker. Even my margarita blender is EFI! lol. dr
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Bzzz wrote:
Also, is it possible the GTS runs cooler? The engine seems less hot versus the GT after a ride. My fan has only come on once, in heavy traffic on a group ride on a hot day. The two GT riders that day said their fans came on three seperate times, and we were all riding together. Maybe it's 'cause the engine works less in the stop-and-go, what with all that extra torque.
Fuel injection allows for optimum fuel air mixture at any given throttle setting therefore allowing the engine to run cooler. In a carbureted engine because jets need to be changed to compensate for various running conditions, it is very easy to run too lean (too much air, not enough fuel) which will raise temperatures.
I have not seen anything this extreme in a four stroke motor, but I've seen many two stroke snowmobile pistons with holes burnt through the top from running too lean (and even did it myself once ). This usually happens when you change to smaller jets to compensate for altitude and/or temperature then don't switch back to the larger ones as you head down the mountain at the end of the day. (I am talking a few thousand feet change in elevation).

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Sprocket, the bottom line is: get the scooter you want! Both the GTS and the ET4/LX have loyal fans here, and there's even a case or two of riders buying one of the larger scoots, and then deciding to trade it back for a 150cc ride due to handling issues.

Of course it's a subjective decision on some level, whatever the technical specs might be. It is, after all, your ride.

Cheers,

--Deborah (still happily riding a 2005 ET4)
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Re: I'm not buying the GTS
Sprocket wrote:
This bike is just too complex with the cooling, injection system. When this bike is out of warranty - yikes!! I've studied the workshop manual between the GTS & LX. 309 pages vs 243. The LX is a clear winner in simplicity. So I can go 75mph. The LX will be far more reliable when the high mileage gets going.
The LX150 is a fine scooter. Operating in it's OEM configuration, it has no heat issues, and it's carburetion runs well through-out it's power band.
The GT200's liquid cooling allows it to develop almost twice the LX150's HP, with only 33% more displacement. In effect, the GT200 is working harder than the LX150, but it's cooling is being augmented. The GTS adds more torque to the mix, with it's extra 50cc.
The biggest virtue of fuel injection is it's closed-loop feedback mechanism. Combustion is monitored, and fuel delivery is altered in real-time, maximizing fuel efficiency while minimizing emissions.
The LX150 may be the least costly to own, over the long-haul, everything taken into account. That's as valid a personal selection criteria as any, for selecting a scooter.
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Les wrote:
Chas,
I think your mpg numbers for the LX are way low. My wife has always gotten better than 67 mpg on hers, and upwards of 80 mpg occasionally. My Derbi (same engine as the LX) usually gets in the mid-70's.
There are a lot of factors that account for MPG variations but on the LX the big variable (aside from maintenance issues) is weight. I get 60mpg, which seems consistent with what's been reported in other threads...
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