OK What next?
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Ossessionato
1964 GS 160 MK II, 1967 Vespa GT, 1968 SS180, 1964 Vespa GL, 1964 Vespa VBB, 2006 Buddy 125, 2013 BMW C650GT
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 2918
Location: Boca Raton, Florida
Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:18 pm quote
This may turn out to be quite a long thread so I might as well get started.

We had plans to go to Amerivespa in Chattanooga. Three weeks before I put my VBB and my Buddy 125 (ok..it is now my wife's Buddy!) in the shop for routine maintenance. I would have done all that myself but I was on the road for work and had zero time. Anyway..they buggered up my VBB and it wasn't going to be ready.

I searched all the forums, craiglists and ran across a candidate. Here is the listing


This scooter was complete frame off rebuild in 2001. Very nice scooter, cost over $5000 to rebuild. The body was striped, sandblasted and painted the front suspension was powered coated. The engine was rebuilt and all parts replaced. The Odometer is rebuilt but is in need of a new cable. This is a very fast scooter, the 150cc engine has been bored out to 187 and it has a performance exhaust. All work was done by Boris at 200cc.


I checked here and on Stella Speed before buying and got positive feed back. regarding Boris's work. Picked it up on the way and it ran OK. Gas was a little stale, rear tire was flat...but it ran and the price was right...and I REALLY NEEDED a sccot for Amerivespa. My alternative was to pick up a new Stella...and...well...it just didn't excite me.


So after getting it home, doing some research and some explanations from a gearhead here is what I think I know.

1964 GL
motor 1979 p125X (VNL3M checked motor No. on Scooter help)
Polini 177cc top end
Dellorto SI 20/20
Main Jet 96 Mixer tube BE5 Air corrector 140 Idle 140 45
Auto lube (Boris added a reservoir)
Sito+ exhaust
Speedo shows 4900 miles but the cable is broken so...who knows?

It has an autolube but the previous owner said he had been premixing. I don't know if the autolube works so I have been premixing 2% Klotz.


It was running ok for awhile but after warming up would loose power in 4th under load. I would pull over work the throttle a bit and it would seem to recover.

I knew the gas was old when I picked it up and I figured a carb cleaning couldn't hurt. I rebuilt the carb (it was pretty gunky)

It runs great for a while. Until it gets nice and warm. Then I start getting high revs with the clutch pulled in and then no power under load in 4th. Pull in the clutch and and it will rev fine without a load. Seemed like it might have been falling out of second a bit also.

There is a fair amount of oil on the bottom near the selector box.

After reading... searching...getting a few answers limited to "use search" I'm thinking that an oil seal may be gone, cruiciform may also be worn.

Could premixing instead of autolube have something to do with it? All I have been able to find is that they rarley breaki...and check it by adding oil to the resevoir.

I'm planning on picking up a compression tester later this week. I'm also planning on draining the gear oil (I already changed it once) and checking for gas.

If I have to tear it apart..well that's OK with me! I'm finishing up the Man Cave (insulated shed with A/C and cable) soon so I'll have a perfect work area. I'm mechanically inclined.various auto repairs including timing chains, exhaust manifolds water pumps etc. so I'm not afraid of diving in...actually kinda looking for an excuse. I mean...it's almost NASCAR season. What could be better than putting on the race and tearing a motor apart?

I also restore antique clocks so I'm good with things that have lots of gears and springs and small parts. I do find MV to be a much friendlier place than BBS or even SS.

So my question is

OK...what next?

Am I on the right track? Should I try retorquing case bolts?

Thanks in advance for your help! I'll keep you updated and document all progress! iI really like this scoot and wouldnt mind putting sometime and money into it!
Enthusiast
1966 Vespa 180SS
Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 87
Location: Titusvill Fl
Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:39 pm quote
Try this check this
It sound like your high speed jet might have some dirt in it. You can remove the carb and clean it and check the jets with tip cleanners for torches the small one work perfect. You might have a fuel problem to make sure your tank vent is working properly or you will be starving the engine. Don't forget the fuel filter and there might be one at the fuel cock at the bottom of the tank to clean Ign timing should be consided to if this has been a problem since you got the scoot. Just somplace to go without getting into stuff to deep. Remember start at 1 and work your way up, don't skip one thing. In other words don't hunt and peck for the problem.
EDM/ 1966 Vespa 180 SS[/img]
Ossessionato
I have a few scooters....
Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 2198
Location: San Antonio, TX
Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:49 pm quote
High revs at idle usually point to a bad seal. If the clutch side seal is gone, you will find the gear oil smells like gasoline. If the fly side goes, it will usually spray some oil that will drip out at the bottom of the flywheel. I'd also recommend checking the compression to make sure that's ok too.

Rebuilding is not rocket science. Get a book and parts manual. There are plenty of people that can help if you get stuck. Good luck.
Ossessionato
1964 GS 160 MK II, 1967 Vespa GT, 1968 SS180, 1964 Vespa GL, 1964 Vespa VBB, 2006 Buddy 125, 2013 BMW C650GT
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 2918
Location: Boca Raton, Florida
Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:09 pm quote
Re: Try this check this
EDM/N1MPR wrote:
It sound like your high speed jet might have some dirt in it. You can remove the carb and clean it and check the jets with tip cleanners for torches the small one work perfect. You might have a fuel problem to make sure your tank vent is working properly or you will be starving the engine. Don't forget the fuel filter and there might be one at the fuel cock at the bottom of the tank to clean Ign timing should be consided to if this has been a problem since you got the scoot. Just somplace to go without getting into stuff to deep. Remember start at 1 and work your way up, don't skip one thing. In other words don't hunt and peck for the problem.
EDM/ 1966 Vespa 180 SS[/img]
Thanks. I'm confident that the jets are clean. I full disassembled the carb and cleaned the snot out of it. Replaced all gaskets, the float and needle. Checking the vent is a good idea. Its those simple things that are easy to miss!
Ossessionato
1964 GS 160 MK II, 1967 Vespa GT, 1968 SS180, 1964 Vespa GL, 1964 Vespa VBB, 2006 Buddy 125, 2013 BMW C650GT
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 2918
Location: Boca Raton, Florida
Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:12 pm quote
Killo wrote:
High revs at idle usually point to a bad seal. If the clutch side seal is gone, you will find the gear oil smells like gasoline. If the fly side goes, it will usually spray some oil that will drip out at the bottom of the flywheel. I'd also recommend checking the compression to make sure that's ok too.

Rebuilding is not rocket science. Get a book and parts manual. There are plenty of people that can help if you get stuck. Good luck.
Idle seems to be good. The bogging down problem is occurs after warm, in 4th under load. High revs occur after warm when pulling in the clutch to shift. I'll check compression later this week and report back. I have the Haynes manual and have already greased up a few pages.

Where on the Island Killo? I'm originally from Massapequa
Ossessionato
I have a few scooters....
Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 2198
Location: San Antonio, TX
Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:38 pm quote
ScooterRaton wrote:
Killo wrote:
High revs at idle usually point to a bad seal. If the clutch side seal is gone, you will find the gear oil smells like gasoline. If the fly side goes, it will usually spray some oil that will drip out at the bottom of the flywheel. I'd also recommend checking the compression to make sure that's ok too.

Rebuilding is not rocket science. Get a book and parts manual. There are plenty of people that can help if you get stuck. Good luck.
Idle seems to be good. The problem is occurs after warm, in 4th under load. I'll check compression later this week and report back. I have the Haynes manual and have already greased up a few pages.

Where on the Island Killo? I'm originally from Massapequa
Fuel starvation could also make it bog. Leave the gas cap loose and see if it makes any difference. I'm near Glen Cove in Glenwood Landing.
nothing at all
Joined: 14 Nov 2008
Posts: 9657
Location: westla
Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:38 pm quote
ok,i want to try something.
if you have injection then stop pre mixing.
if your carb belches than at speed you are covering your air filter with oily gas.
starving the motor for air wheen you need alot.
a big jet will belch.
a belching carb is not such a bad thing persay but a rich mix will effect air passing. other opinions abound,but no need for such a rich mix.
SO lets determine the injector works and let it do its job.
the injectors rarely fail,but a custom set up you never know.
one way to check for working injector is remove the oil hose from carb and see if theres oil in it.

the injector adds 2% and slightly more at high rev-around 3%,so at high rev your shoveing 4-5%,way to much for that bike.
lets start there.

my opinion
Banned
Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 75

Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:53 pm quote
Flyside seal.
nothing at all
Joined: 14 Nov 2008
Posts: 9657
Location: westla
Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:07 pm quote
once you have addressed the injector i want you to move down to the wetness around gear selector.

take a pic if you can but also pull off your fan shroud and tell us what you see in the channel near the bottom.

if dry replace shroud and go to the back of the carb box. there is a hole and a screw,this is your mixture setting,don't touch it just tell me if it is a wet mess under the hole. this is going to tell us that your carb is belching alot of over mixed fuel. the gas evaporates and leaves a spread of un burnt oil all over.

if it is sticky black then you need to address a leak at the exhaust stub.

pics!
Member
250 GTS
Joined: 16 Oct 2008
Posts: 9
Location: osama bin ladins broom cupboard
Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:00 am quote
Hello mate,I've had a Pollini 177 and there realy quick but they can be a bit of a grenade.They run very hot.First get the bore checked,there well known for being banana shaped.Then you'll need a Mazza race crank,PX200 carb[min] and gears,desent expansion exh.Pull the engine apart and rebuild with quality seals and bearings.Set timing as per 200 and stick to pre-mix.Try to get someone who knows what there doing to set up the carb but run it slightly rich just to be safe.Just my opinion mind,others may have better knowledge,Mick
Ossessionato
1964 GS 160 MK II, 1967 Vespa GT, 1968 SS180, 1964 Vespa GL, 1964 Vespa VBB, 2006 Buddy 125, 2013 BMW C650GT
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 2918
Location: Boca Raton, Florida
Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:00 pm quote
Well I picked up a compression tester and a new torque wrench (got a feeling I'm gonna need it) My other torque wrench ranged from 30 to 150 ft lbs. Good deal on a Craftsman digital set 5 to 80 ft lbs.

OK What next?

I've looked a few places but not found any information on compression testing. Any advantage to checking cold before warming up the motor? Should I leave fuel in the carb or run it out?

Thanks for all the replies. I'll try some of the other suggestions offered and take some photos tomorrow.

I will report back soon!
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