A Better 2-stroke?
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Hooked
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
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Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:19 pm quote
http://denverpost.com/business/ci_3270655

I thought this article in our local paper was timely and might be of interest. It seems these people have invented a realistic plan to clean up the old 2 stroke motor. Their primary goal is to cut down on pollution in the third world, but there's gotta be a Stella or ET2 rider out there who'd like to retrofit their machine for more power AND less pollution.
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Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:42 pm quote
There are many companies selling direct injection products for 2-cycle engines. CSU didn't develop a new technology, as claimed by the article. CSU did develop a compelling business plan, managed to secure a half-million dollar grant, and started a non-profit corporation to shield the grant.
Hooked
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Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:06 pm quote
I'd be interested to hear more about these companies if you have any examples. I was unable to locate anyone selling kits to retrofit existing 2 stroke engines, which is apparently what the company in the article is doing. But then i didn't look very hard

I also wonder why the Stella and the Vespa PX are not injected. If it only costs $250 to retrofit an existing engine in the third world, it couldn't cost that much to modify an existing design and spread the cost over thousands of units. Maybe I'm missing something ...?
Addicted
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Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:26 pm quote
addicted wrote:
There are many companies selling ...<snip>
Gary,

I couldn't help but chuckle when I looked at your screen name with your membership "level" (or whatever it's called).

It seems "addicted" is "hooked".

"Hi, My name is Gary. I'm a scooterist."

All together now everyone: "Hi Gary!"



I think this board is populated by enablers.

Kevin
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Joined: 29 Nov 2005
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Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:36 pm quote
Nothing new here...
Aprilia has used this technology since at least 2002 on their DiTech line of scooters. See http://scootnfast.com/scootnfast/. The first link under "Technical Information" shows how a DiTech engine works. My personal experience with an SR-50 DiTech scooter is that it works quite well: 115-120 mpg, and only has used a couple of ounces of injector oil in 350 miles.
Ossessionato
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Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:39 pm quote
Amazing!

And I thought DITECH had been around for yonks!

Ever looked at a Vespa ET2 50cc two-stroke?

I think it originated with Sarich in Australia.

Mike
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Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:48 pm quote
Bzzz wrote:
I'd be interested to hear more about these companies if you have any examples. I was unable to locate anyone selling kits to retrofit existing 2 stroke engines, which is apparently what the company in the article is doing. But then i didn't look very hard ...?
If you Google "direct fuel injection", you'll find plenty to keep you busy. Here's one company that references a patented direct fuel injector for 2-stroke engines: http://www.ficht-online.com/e_ffi.htm. As per their press, they are currently in production for Evinrude, Polaris, and Kawasaki. Also, their claims sound remarkably like what's claimed in the CSU story:
Ficht® fuel injection technology URL wrote:
The 2-cycle engine finally gains the traditionally appreciated 4-cycle features:

*low fuel consumption (reduced by 30% !)
*low exhaust emissions (reduced by 85% without catalyst!)
*smooth and uniform running, even at lowest loads and idle speed
*virtually smoke-free and odorless
I don't know of anyone retrofitting existing engines, nor did I state so in my post. I doubt that $250 price too. At the least, a direct fuel injection retrofit would require a new design cylinder head, fuel injector, fuel pump and relay, engine speed and/or CO2 sensors, and ECU, plus trained labor.
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Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:56 pm quote
Kevin wrote:
I couldn't help but chuckle when I looked at your screen name with your membership "level" (or whatever it's called).

It seems "addicted" is "hooked".
"Hi, My name is Gary. I'm a scooterist."
All together now everyone: "Hi Gary!"

I think this board is populated by enablers.
Kevin
Good one Kevin!
Hooked
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 447

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:54 pm quote
addicted wrote:
There are many companies selling direct injection products for 2-cycle engines. CSU didn't develop a new technology, as claimed by the article. CSU did develop a compelling business plan, managed to secure a half-million dollar grant, and started a non-profit corporation to shield the grant.
I think I failed to explain clearly. Sorry 'bout that. You're correct that there's plenty of information out there about engines purpose-built as injected 2 strokes. They've been around for years.

I was looking for information about the Denver Post article, which is about retrofitting existing engines. I don't see any "claim" in the article about inventing injected 2 strokes. What the writer says they developed is the technology behind a marketable kit to retrofit existing motors. The artice says the technology "...will target the filthy exhaust pouring from the tailpipes of 50 million mopeds and scooters in Asia." So they are targeting pollution from existing engines, not selling new ones.

In the photo the guy is holding up what appears to be the replacement head with injection. This appears to be, in part, what they customer gets for their $250.



If a Molossi 68cc engine kit (including finely machined parts like a new piston and rings) can be profitably sold for about $175, then is it possible to sell a kit to retrofit the top end of that same engine for around $250? And why can't a Stella or ET2 be converted to injection? It seems to me like there would be a market for this among the scooterati.
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Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:07 pm quote
Bzzz wrote:
I don't see any "claim" in the article about inventing injected 2 strokes.
I didn't state that either! :?
Hooked
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 447

Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:13 pm quote
addicted wrote:
Bzzz wrote:
I don't see any "claim" in the article about inventing injected 2 strokes.
I didn't state that either! :?
I guess I misunderstood. I apologize if I mis-interpreted your point.

You said "There are many companies selling direct injection products for 2-cycle engines. CSU didn't develop a new technology, as claimed by the article.". But it looks like they did develop new technology, and that he's holding it in his hand.

Any idea if existing engines like the Stella, et al, can be converted to injection? That would be cool, IMO.
Addicted
PX200 for aeons, Lambrettas in "60's",My wife's GTS250 when I'm good.
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Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:10 am quote
Orbital engine design
An Australian engineer had his Orbital design bought by Piaggio as it was considered to be a next generation two stroke.Check it out by search engine.
Piaggio just decided to go the four stroke way.
I would like Stella to get California approval just to give riders in that state an option.
I have to confess i looove going in the garage to smell the two stroke engine at rest, ok so maybe I need therapy.
Cheers Old Mod
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Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:26 am quote
That was the DiTech engine, contracted in 2002.
Quote:
Orbital, the company moves along with promising new endeavors that include a just-inked deal to supply its air-assisted direct-injection system to Piaggio, Europe's largest motorcycle/scooter maker. The Orbital air-assist DI helps make the Piaggio engine, at 7.6 hp, the most powerful 50-cc engine in production, says Orbital.
Ossessionato
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Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:35 am quote
Orbital makes direct injection systems for a number of companies. Piaggio, Peugeot and Aprilia all use the same system, but brand it differently (Purejet, TSDI, and DiTech respectively). In all of those cases, the companies retrofitted the technology to existing engines. Essentially, you need a new cylinder head, a different oiling system, a high pressure fuel pump, and the sensors and computer hardware to make it all run. If Genuine wanted to (or could afford to, not sure which), they could have Orbital direct inject the Stella. It would be much easier though if LML had some interest in doing it. The thing is, a carbed 4 stroke is cheaper to produce than a direct injected 2 stroke. While the DI engine may be cleaner, the carbed 4 stroke will easily meet or exceed most emissions requirements for motorcycles around the world. On a scooter the profit margin isn't that high, so keeping costs low is a big deal.
Hooked
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 447

Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:14 am quote
Bryce Ludwig wrote:
If Genuine wanted to (or could afford to, not sure which), they could have Orbital direct inject the Stella. It would be much easier though if LML had some interest in doing it. The thing is, a carbed 4 stroke is cheaper to produce than a direct injected 2 stroke. While the DI engine may be cleaner, the carbed 4 stroke will easily meet or exceed most emissions requirements for motorcycles around the world. On a scooter the profit margin isn't that high, so keeping costs low is a big deal.
This makes sense. I can see why a maker would just switch to a 4 stroke design rather than modify their existing 2 stroke. It's always about money.

However, I still wonder if there is a market for current 2-stroke owners to change their existing scoots to injection.

Getting a new 50cc 4 stroke means compromising on power in exchange for cleaner running. I think a person with a 2-stroke 50cc who is "green" in their thinking but doesn't have the cash to get a new 4-stroke might be interested in a retrofit kit for their existing motor. It cleans up the exhaust and provides more power, if I'm understanding correctly. What's not to love about that?
Ossessionato
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Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:44 pm quote
Well, I'm not sure it necesarily provides more power. If you look at the SR50 Ditech, it's more costly to tune than a carbed model and typically for less result. The thing is, you will probably get as much power as a stock carbureted 2 stroke, although likely a bit more, while getting much better emissions and fuel economy.

If a kit were available for a Stella or a P, and I had one of those models, I would get one. Many wouldn't though because it isn't simple and you don't have much control over it like you do a carb.
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