Throttle Tube Spring.
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Molto Verboso
1974 Rally USA 200(Celtic Barron),1980 P200e
Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 1700
Location: Pioneer Valley Ma.
Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:15 pm quote
Is there a return spring at the end of the throttle tube?

I see what looks like a copper or brass spring wrapped around the tube closest to the inside but its not attached to anything.
I am having trouble with the throttle returning on its own.

I lubed the throttle slide and made sure the slide spring was OK during the carb rebuild. I also lubed the cable.

I think the big throttle tube spring broke?

Any pix would be helpful...........
Molto Verboso
1974 Rally USA 200(Celtic Barron),1980 P200e
Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 1700
Location: Pioneer Valley Ma.
Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:37 pm quote
I just looked again in the Haynes book and it looks like the whole spring is there?
Whats the spring press against for the spring to load ?
Sponsor
4:4
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 6233
Location: San Francisco
Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:05 pm quote
On the rally there is no return spring. from the under side of the headset you can see a pin that holds the parts of the throttle tube together. After passing through the two main parts of the throttle tube it then wraps around the tube to keep it from falling out.

There is actually a part designed to keep the throttle from returning on it's own. It's located around the throttle tube just inboard of the grip. removing it goes a long way to helping the throttle return under spring force of the carb.
Molto Verboso
1974 Rally USA 200(Celtic Barron),1980 P200e
Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 1700
Location: Pioneer Valley Ma.
Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:03 pm quote
I will remove the grip a little maybe its squeezing the head piece ?

I will look for that piece that might be interfering.
Molto Verboso
1974 Rally USA 200(Celtic Barron),1980 P200e
Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 1700
Location: Pioneer Valley Ma.
Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:17 pm quote
I just cleaned all the tube rubbing points while its still in the head set.(blasted the hell out of it with half a can of WD40) I used a block of wood and a hammer to gently knock- in the throttle tube to get some more play where it meets the head set.Yes there is a small thin flange there that i thought was rubbing but its not the problem. ??
Addicted
'60 VS5, '63 Li 150 Special, '76 Rally 200, '77 P200E, '07 PX125
Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 817
Location: Seoul
Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:09 pm quote
Some people pay extra for cruise control...
Sponsor
4:4
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 6233
Location: San Francisco
Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:00 pm quote
gatekeep wrote:
I just cleaned all the tube rubbing points while its still in the head set.(blasted the hell out of it with half a can of WD40) I used a block of wood and a hammer to gently knock- in the throttle tube to get some more play where it meets the head set.Yes there is a small thin flange there that i thought was rubbing but its not the problem. ?? :-?
it's not a mater of play, knocking it will not make things better. there are wave washers that take up slack and the flange provides a smooth surface to locate the throttle tube. To get to the part that keeps it from rotating back you have to remove the throttle tube at least part way. I only remove that part if I'm rebuilding the headset anyway. Otherwise I just learn to deal with it.
Molto Verboso
1974 Rally USA 200(Celtic Barron),1980 P200e
Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 1700
Location: Pioneer Valley Ma.
Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:13 am quote
Do they make a stiffer slide spring?

I'm going to loosen it and blast it with a lot of air.
Moderator
1962 GS160mk1, 1963 GS160mk2, 1965 SS180, 1974 Rally 200, wife's LI150
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 6949
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:20 am quote
a well lubed cable and a clean throttle tube do wonders. I would disassemble the whole thing, clean it off, lube it and reinsert. You'll notice wonders. There's a very close tolerance between the headset and that tube... and road dust gets up in there, mixes with oil or lube, and turns into a mess that makes it difficult to turn.

If you clean that bit up, it will feel like a new bike again.
Hooked
1985 T5 Mk1, 1984 PX200 EFL
Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 426
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:35 am quote
hp wrote:
Some people pay extra for cruise control...
Hooked
GTS 250
Joined: 06 Aug 2007
Posts: 244
Location: Dublin, Ohio
Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:48 am quote
I found it to be a royal PITA getting things lined back up to insert the spring clip that holds the throttle tube to the cable pulley. Putting slack in the cables helped, but it was still a pain working in those tight quarters. There has to be an easy way that did not dawn on me.
Moderator
1962 GS160mk1, 1963 GS160mk2, 1965 SS180, 1974 Rally 200, wife's LI150
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 6949
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:58 am quote
Apex - post some pics of your Super. I want to see the before and after shots.
Hooked
GTS 250
Joined: 06 Aug 2007
Posts: 244
Location: Dublin, Ohio
Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:45 am quote
Rover Eric wrote:
Apex - post some pics of your Super. I want to see the before and after shots.
There really is no "after" to look at. I did get it running and have been riding it regularly (though it still has some issues with bogging down low), but I have not done anything to it cosmetically. It looks better in pictures than in real life--the bottom of the body is pretty rusty, though not rusted through. I cleaned out the tank, rebuilt the old but rare 20/15 injected carb, put in a new fuel tap, a new headlight ($$$), new fuel and oil lines, new bellows and a bunch of other small stuff. I also put new tires and wheels on it (not seen in the pictures), staying with the 8 inchers as you had recommended. Based on all I have learned about this scooter, I am pretty sure it is not worth spending a lot of time or money on the cosmetics. It is a lowly VBC and I already have too much money in it. Rather, as my first venture into the vintage scooter world (after working on motorcycles since I was a kid), it has been like going to school, but I have left it looking like a beater. I am usually so anal about the condition of my bikes, it has been a lot of fun riding something I really don't give a crap about hurting.




Moderator
1962 GS160mk1, 1963 GS160mk2, 1965 SS180, 1974 Rally 200, wife's LI150
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 6949
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:20 pm quote
Jeff...that bike rules. Ride it like you stole it. I think you're doing a hell of a job.

I call first dibs if you're ever selling that thing.
Molto Verboso
1974 Rally USA 200(Celtic Barron),1980 P200e
Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 1700
Location: Pioneer Valley Ma.
Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:20 pm quote
OK, While I have access to the throttle tube here, Ive cleaned as much as poss....that I can get at.
I would like to do a partial throttle tube clean/ grease job.

Its there a trick to get the throttle tube pulled out?

Oh yeah,the Speedo is on the way to Speedo King for a rebuild.

Steve is the Man when it comes to talking Speed o's!

IMO
Hooked
1974 Rally 200, 2009 Yamaha C3, 2010 Honda SH150i
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 403
Location: san francisco
Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:42 am quote
gatekeep wrote:
I would like to do a partial throttle tube clean/ grease job.

Its there a trick to get the throttle tube pulled out?


IMO
if there is any overspray on the tube, you're in for a special treat getting that thing outta there, if you wanna take it out all the way. took me a hammer, various screwdrivers/wrenches, a half a day for both tubes, and trying to ignore the denting of the tube ends i was doing (that i would grind reasonable afterward). the tolerances are great, but i sanded/polished and lubed the mating surfaces for reassembly.
Moderator
1962 GS160mk1, 1963 GS160mk2, 1965 SS180, 1974 Rally 200, wife's LI150
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 6949
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:48 am quote
aaron h. wrote:
but i sanded/polished and lubed the mating surfaces for reassembly.
+1
Addicted
63 VNB / 03 BV200
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 782
Location: Kansas City
Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:22 am quote
ive noticed that lubing just attracts dirt to it faster...i have cleaned, sanded lightly with 600 wet, and re-inserted...
Molto Verboso
1979 p200e
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 1203
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:41 am quote
apex wrote:

Love that color.
Member
VNB4T 1963 Vespa
Joined: 08 Sep 2008
Posts: 43
Location: UK
Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:05 am quote
another stuck throttle grip - 1963 VNB4T
hi everyone.

im also having a very similar problem and thought I would bump this post, as its really starting to get to me now.

having stripped my bike back to nothing, having it resprayed and now in the process of putting it all back together, im having the problem where my throttle grip is not returning under the load of the spring from the carb.

I have replaced the entire set of cables (as I said, im restoring the bike from scratch) and checked every possible part. last night I spent about 2-3 hours fiddling and trying to get the throttle all working smoothly, after putting it all back together - NO CHANGE.

im aware that there are pretty tight tolerances around this thing, but I just dont see where the issue is..... without the cable attached in the head unit I can twist the throttle grip freely, I mean - it wont turn with just my little finger resting on it, its not that loose, but it feels ok, pulling the cable with a pair of pliers with it being connected at the carb end seems to pull through ok (although under load from the spring - which feels tight) - but when I connect the 2 up - there just seems to be a load of friction somewhere.... or the spring isnt man enough to do the job.

I greased the throttle tube up before inserting it, and now all of the electrics are pushed through and the front brake cable, its gonna be a royal PITA to take it all out again (the electrical harness was not an easy job to get through)

short of firing a load of WD40 down the cable casing until it comes out of the end - im at a loss of what to do.

I still have the tube spring attached near the grip, this seems a pretty tight fit into the handlebar housing, one point of friction I guess.

I did notice when inserting the throttle tube into the housing it seemed pretty tight, and whilst pushing in and out, I noticed score marks appearing on the tube, however - a bit of sanding down and a bit of grease, it eventually slid in - and when fully inserted, seemed to get past the point of friction..


any help, advice would be much appreciated.

Jon
www.projectvespa.com
(check it out to see the bike)
nothing at all
Joined: 14 Nov 2008
Posts: 9598
Location: Venice
Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:27 am quote
wholly crap that bike is perfect


beautifull smoothy
Banned
Joined: 27 Sep 2007
Posts: 1186

Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:54 am quote
my throttle doesn't stick, but it certainly doesn't jump back closed.

People have told me "that's the way these Rallys are"
Moderator
1962 GS160mk1, 1963 GS160mk2, 1965 SS180, 1974 Rally 200, wife's LI150
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 6949
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:07 am quote
So, your throttle tube should have enough clearance around it that it be able to move with very little friction. If you resprayed the bike, you might have gotten paint inside the holes in the headset that the tube slides into... you need to clean that out. Once lubed, the thing should spin around freely in there before you route cables through it, or attach the wire-clips that hold it in place.

But, the other big area where people experience friction is the cables. I think cable routing, proper cable lengths, and lubrication amount to most of the difficulties in gear changing, throttle sticking, and so on.

tight bends in the headset, or down in the frame will cause dramatic changes. A cable outer being an inch too long, or an inch too short, will cause serious problems.
Molto Verboso
79 P200e, 81 100 Sport
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 1443
Location: Iowa
Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:32 am quote
I media blasted my tubes and then primed them. When it came time for reassembly, they wouldn't fit because the primer was on thicker than what was previously there.
Moderator
1962 GS160mk1, 1963 GS160mk2, 1965 SS180, 1974 Rally 200, wife's LI150
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 6949
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:37 am quote
there shouldn't be ANYTHING on the tubes. If you've got any paint or primer on there, it should be wire brushed off.
Molto Verboso
79 P200e, 81 100 Sport
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 1443
Location: Iowa
Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:38 am quote
Rover Eric wrote:
there shouldn't be ANYTHING on the tubes. If you've got any paint or primer on there, it should be wire brushed off.
I learned that one the hard way.

We need a "I learned it the hard way" thread covering these minor rebuild no-no's.
Ossessionato
Joined: 23 Sep 2008
Posts: 2633

Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:44 am quote
hp wrote:
Some people pay extra for cruise control...
Ossessionato
Joined: 23 Sep 2008
Posts: 2633

Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:45 am quote
Rover Eric wrote:
there shouldn't be ANYTHING on the tubes. If you've got any paint or primer on there, it should be wire brushed off.
Just lube'em up!
Hooked
GS150 VS2, GS160
Joined: 05 Dec 2008
Posts: 249
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:25 am quote
Quote:
I just dont see where the issue is.....
I think you guys who are having this "problem" need to change the way you are thinking about it. You are not fixing anything. What you are actually trying to do is alter the way the bike is designed to function. In other words, a modification. (A P series is the only Vespa I know of on which the throttle is meant to return on its own if you let go of the grip.)

So, like with any mod you do to your bike, just working with all of the stock parts put together the way they are supposed to be probably isn't going to work no matter how much you clean or fiddle. Either you'll need to get creative with removing stuff or stiffer springs or whatever, or ride the bike the way it's supposed to be (controlling the throttle yourself).
Molto Verboso
1974 Rally USA 200(Celtic Barron),1980 P200e
Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 1700
Location: Pioneer Valley Ma.
Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:26 pm quote
I just blasted them out with WD40 and Air . I guess there better or near better..
Member
VNB4T 1963 Vespa
Joined: 08 Sep 2008
Posts: 43
Location: UK
Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:49 am quote
Team Leisure: I kind of disagree with your post about the modification, dont get me wrong - I have no experience with scooters, but purely from a mechanical point of view - plus in the UK im sure as hell a bike wouldnt pass its MOT if the throttle grip didnt spring back - its just dangerous?

every bike I have ever ridden as a self returning throttle, is it me - or isnt this how they are designed from factory?

eric - you say that the cable lengths are critical - but how do you know when the length is right!? - with the new cable set I bought - all the cables were way too long (better than short right) - and so needed to be cut down to size, however - the risk is run of cutting too short, then your back to square one!

so - a few points:

"just lube em up" - with what?? should this be grease? or WD40? should the grip be lubed with grease, and the cables with wd40??

there isnt any paint what so ever on the tube, or in side the headset shaft, but there is friction, and now with all the cables and wiring threaded through, a right pain to take out again!

thanks for your continued help on this.
nothing at all
Joined: 14 Nov 2008
Posts: 9598
Location: Venice
Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:12 am quote
i think the responces are going to be varied

the guys that have been doing this a while will give you pointers, but i know in my own mind that these things, before we ever get a hold of em, have been through the ringer

my et3 is tight and loose, nice return

my p is so loose that i have play in the tube to the point where you can wiggle it, nice return

my point is, even though i spent time cleaning and fine sanding and assembly with lube, what did the guy before me do

over sand the tube holes??

media blast the crap out em??!!!

the best you can do when the tubes are out is be sure there's no paint

fine sand

carb cleaner the crap out of the area

and assemble with lube(axle grease, lithium white, vasoline, ect)

i dont think my p has any lube in there, just a big gap between the tube and hole
Banned
Joined: 27 Sep 2007
Posts: 1186

Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:16 am quote
I was at bar italia yesterday, and asked Kristian about my throttle not jumping closed if I let go.

he said that it was normal.
nothing at all
Joined: 14 Nov 2008
Posts: 9598
Location: Venice
Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:20 am quote
dannyw wrote:
I was at bar italia yesterday, and asked Kristian about my throttle not jumping closed if I let go.

he said that it was normal.
and there you have it, my point exactly

i miss those guys

i have not been able to make any rides
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