Which numbers are the VIN? MORE CONFUSION 3-15-10
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
'80 P200E, '76 Primavera 125 ET3. '59 Vespa 150
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 6445
Location: GT, Texas
Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:44 pm quote
Which numbers are the VIN? The frame number? Engine number, or both?

How does that work exactly?

Also, does anyone have any experience getting a title search done in the state of Texas?

I'm trying to decide which way to go; Texas or International Title Service.

I figure I need to get the ball rolling since I'm hoping to have my scooter rolling soon.

Last edited by astromags on Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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68 SS180, 74 Primavera
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Location: WI, USA
Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:54 pm quote
I think it is the frame VIN usually. Engines can get switched out.
Molto Verboso
1974 Rally USA 200(Celtic Barron),1980 P200e
Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 1700
Location: Pioneer Valley Ma.
Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:56 pm quote
If you have a old registration you can make up the bill of sale from the previous owner/ registration holder. They will just use the old registration numbers for the new title.
Title search outfits are about $50-$100.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'80 P200E, '76 Primavera 125 ET3. '59 Vespa 150
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 6445
Location: GT, Texas
Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:15 pm quote
gatekeep wrote:
If you have a old registration you can make up the bill of sale from the previous owner/ registration holder. They will just use the old registration numbers for the new title.
Title search outfits are about $50-$100.
All I have is a bill of sale from the guy I got it from. No registration or anything else. He picked it up in GA.
Hooked
Joined: 05 Nov 2009
Posts: 188
Location: Dallas, Tx
Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:26 pm quote
Texas is ruthless about registering old scooters when you don't have a current title. They will not let you just use an old registration or bill of sale.

There is an official bonded title process when you don't have a title, where you apply for a "bonded title" and have to purchase a bond for the scoot. If nobody protests in a certain amount of years, you can get a real title. It ends up being expensive and a pain in the arse. The records on anything more than 15 years old is non-existent.

I've registered quite a few scoots with International Titles with good success.

Usually the VIN is the prefix and serial number (between the stars) from the frame. I do have a friend here in Texas that registered his motor prefix and serial number because he was going to put it in a different scooter. He's never had a problem with it.

Also for anything 25 years old I recommend Antique registration. It's 50 bucks for five years with no inspection. The DMV will tell you that you can't ride on the street, but the official law states parades, to and from a mechanic, and club meetings are legal. I've never heard of anyone getting pulled over and I'm not sure what the legal definition of a club meeting is and that you can't test your scoot on the way to the mechanic.
Hooked
73 rally 200 85 PK 125
Joined: 19 Feb 2010
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Location: santa cruz
Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:26 pm quote
Not sure how it works in TX but in Ca my title has both the frame number and the engine number on the title
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3 Vintage 1 Modern
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Location: Hustletown, TX
Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:36 am quote
Quote:
Also for anything 25 years old I recommend Antique registration. It's 50 bucks for five years with no inspection. The DMV will tell you that you can't ride on the street, but the official law states parades, to and from a mechanic, and club meetings are legal. I've never heard of anyone getting pulled over and I'm not sure what the legal definition of a club meeting is and that you can't test your scoot on the way to the mechanic.
+1

I did this as well, and I have been pulled over (43 in a 30). He didn't even mention the antique plate. As an aside, I told the copper I was test riding after rebuilding the carb. He said, "That's fine". We yacked about scoots and motorcycles for a good ten minutes. Left with a warning.

AFAICT, they make no differentiation between going to a mechanic and you being the mechanic. And I assure you... I can be testing something on my bike every time I ride.
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1962 GS160mk1, 1963 GS160mk2, 1965 SS180, 1974 Rally 200, wife's LI150
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Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:27 am quote
find someone you know in a state where they will title anything, cheaply and easily ( michigan for example ).

Then just set up a straw-man operation ...have them title the scoot for you and "Sell it" back to you.

Bam...now you have a title.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'80 P200E, '76 Primavera 125 ET3. '59 Vespa 150
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 6445
Location: GT, Texas
Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:54 am quote
So which states are the lenient ones? I don't know too many people outside TX and LA and CA.
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79 P200E w/California Sidecar
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Location: McKinney Texas
Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:57 am quote
Give these guys a call. They can answer any questions you have over the phone. I think the bonded title will run you a little over 100$

http://www.greatertexasins.com/bondsinsurance.html
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Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:49 pm quote
I've been thinking about this a lot, too. The California title I have for my P200 only has a the serial number without the prefix and seems really strange to me and I am afraid that when I go to get a new title they will freak.

My 400s don't have any kind of title. Neither has had a title for 30 years or been on the road since 1967. I am thinking that I will have to go through the bonded title process to title either one of them. It is complicated by the fact that they are so rare that it is hard to ascertain the value of them. I have thought a lot about how I want to register them and although the antique plates sound like they might be good, I was thinking about getting some vintage 1960 plates and using them to register the cars.
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79 P200E w/California Sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 395
Location: McKinney Texas
Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:53 pm quote
HonestlyLincoln wrote:
I've been thinking about this a lot, too. The California title I have for my P200 only has a the serial number without the prefix and seems really strange to me and I am afraid that when I go to get a new title they will freak.

My 400s don't have any kind of title. Neither has had a title for 30 years or been on the road since 1967. I am thinking that I will have to go through the bonded title process to title either one of them. It is complicated by the fact that they are so rare that it is hard to ascertain the value of them. I have thought a lot about how I want to register them and although the antique plates sound like they might be good, I was thinking about getting some vintage 1960 plates and using them to register the cars.
I really doubt you will have any problems getting the P titled here. I would think that plenty of scooters are moved to TX from CA and titled all the time.

As to your other bikes you can set the value of them yourself and unless a title shows up somehow you will need a bonded one. When I called them they told me printouts from Ebay auctions, a note from a Vespa dealer or even a note from yourself claiming a certain value would work. What you need to understand is that they are going to do a VIN search and if that comes up clean they will issue a bonded title and you will pay for "insurance" in case someone shows up and can prove the bike was stolen (this "insurance" is covered in the fee you pay to the bonded title company). If that were to happen you would be paid the amount that you had the bike title bonded for and the owner that had it stolen would get his bike back.

I really would just give these guys a call (I do not work for them or have any other association with them except as a customer), they can answer any question about the titles you can throw at them.
http://www.greatertexasins.com/bondsinsurance.html
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Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:11 pm quote
Toodles McFlufffyPants wrote:
I really doubt you will have any problems getting the P titled here. I would think that plenty of scooters are moved to TX from CA and titled all the time.

As to your other bikes you can set the value of them yourself and unless a title shows up somehow you will need a bonded one. When I called them they told me printouts from Ebay auctions, a note from a Vespa dealer or even a note from yourself claiming a certain value would work. What you need to understand is that they are going to do a VIN search and if that comes up clean they will issue a bonded title and you will pay for "insurance" in case someone shows up and can prove the bike was stolen (this "insurance" is covered in the fee you pay to the bonded title company). If that were to happen you would be paid the amount that you had the bike title bonded for and the owner that had it stolen would get his bike back.

I really would just give these guys a call (I do not work for them or have any other association with them except as a customer), they can answer any question about the titles you can throw at them.
http://www.greatertexasins.com/bondsinsurance.html
I'm not too worried about the P, just a thought lingering in the back of my mind about how the title has a strange VIN on it.

The Vespa 400s are rare and I would be hard pressed to even find an ebay auction (in the US) and they aren't listed in the NADA guides. I might be able to find some ads or auctions, but it might be hard to find one in the same condition. I haven't even started to look into titling them yet, but it is something that I have looked into a bit. I suppose that I should do it now and by the time one of them is ready to hit the road, the title will be clear of the bond.
Molto Verboso
'66 Sears Allstate 788.94370 '65 Vespa V9A1T
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:23 pm quote
i would always suggest titling before you put any money into a bike or car.
Banned
79 P200E w/California Sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 395
Location: McKinney Texas
Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:27 pm quote
HonestlyLincoln wrote:
Toodles McFlufffyPants wrote:
I really doubt you will have any problems getting the P titled here. I would think that plenty of scooters are moved to TX from CA and titled all the time.

As to your other bikes you can set the value of them yourself and unless a title shows up somehow you will need a bonded one. When I called them they told me printouts from Ebay auctions, a note from a Vespa dealer or even a note from yourself claiming a certain value would work. What you need to understand is that they are going to do a VIN search and if that comes up clean they will issue a bonded title and you will pay for "insurance" in case someone shows up and can prove the bike was stolen (this "insurance" is covered in the fee you pay to the bonded title company). If that were to happen you would be paid the amount that you had the bike title bonded for and the owner that had it stolen would get his bike back.

I really would just give these guys a call (I do not work for them or have any other association with them except as a customer), they can answer any question about the titles you can throw at them.
http://www.greatertexasins.com/bondsinsurance.html
I'm not too worried about the P, just a thought lingering in the back of my mind about how the title has a strange VIN on it.

The Vespa 400s are rare and I would be hard pressed to even find an ebay auction (in the US) and they aren't listed in the NADA guides. I might be able to find some ads or auctions, but it might be hard to find one in the same condition. I haven't even started to look into titling them yet, but it is something that I have looked into a bit. I suppose that I should do it now and by the time one of them is ready to hit the road, the title will be clear of the bond.
Wow, I had no idea you had 2 Vespa cars! Post some pics when you can...

For the bonded title you really can set the value yourself. They actually told me to just write a letter saying it is worth x Dollars. Keep in mind the higher you set the value the higher the bond will be.

In your case are you fairly sure they are not stolen? If the VIN check shows up as clean I see no way in hell someone who owned these back in 1967 could show up and claim them as stolen and have actual proof. I seriously doubt you need to worry about having them bonded for a huge amount .

When you go to get your 'regular' insurance is when you want to have all of your documentation as far as true market value in order.

FYI it takes 3 years for the bonded title to clear.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'80 P200E, '76 Primavera 125 ET3. '59 Vespa 150
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 6445
Location: GT, Texas
Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:55 pm quote
smallstate wrote:
i would always suggest titling before you put any money into a bike or car.
A little late.

But as I understand it. If I get it bonded for what I've got in it/or expect to put in it, and it turns up stolen, I think I'd be fine.
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79 P200E w/California Sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 395
Location: McKinney Texas
Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:58 pm quote
astromags wrote:
smallstate wrote:
i would always suggest titling before you put any money into a bike or car.
A little late.

But as I understand it. If I get it bonded for what I've got in it/or expect to put in it, and it turns up stolen, I think I'd be fine.
I would get it bonded before putting much more work into it. Your time can't be replaced...
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Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:00 pm quote
Toodles McFlufffyPants wrote:
Wow, I had no idea you had 2 Vespa cars! Post some pics when you can...

For the bonded title you really can set the value yourself. They actually told me to just write a letter saying it is worth x Dollars. Keep in mind the higher you set the value the higher the bond will be.

In your case are you fairly sure they are not stolen? If the VIN check shows up as clean I see no way in hell someone who owned these back in 1967 could show up and claim them as stolen and have actual proof. I seriously doubt you need to worry about having them bonded for a huge amount .

When you go to get your 'regular' insurance is when you want to have all of your documentation as far as true market value in order.

FYI it takes 3 years for the bonded title to clear.
Well, there is a situation with the cars. They were sold in 1980 and the guy who bought them never showed back up. Turned out he died in a wreck. Some family showed up years later and talked about taking the cars, but never did. So they sat for 25 years with the original owner. There is almost zero chance of someone showing up to claim the cars, but the story made me feel somewhat uneasy about the situation. Hell if they did show up, maybe I would charge them for 30 years of storage.
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79 P200E w/California Sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2010
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Location: McKinney Texas
Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:06 pm quote
HonestlyLincoln wrote:
Toodles McFlufffyPants wrote:
Wow, I had no idea you had 2 Vespa cars! Post some pics when you can...

For the bonded title you really can set the value yourself. They actually told me to just write a letter saying it is worth x Dollars. Keep in mind the higher you set the value the higher the bond will be.

In your case are you fairly sure they are not stolen? If the VIN check shows up as clean I see no way in hell someone who owned these back in 1967 could show up and claim them as stolen and have actual proof. I seriously doubt you need to worry about having them bonded for a huge amount .

When you go to get your 'regular' insurance is when you want to have all of your documentation as far as true market value in order.

FYI it takes 3 years for the bonded title to clear.
Well, there is a situation with the cars. They were sold in 1980 and the guy who bought them never showed back up. Turned out he died in a wreck. Some family showed up years later and talked about taking the cars, but never did. So they sat for 25 years with the original owner. There is almost zero chance of someone showing up to claim the cars, but the story made me feel somewhat uneasy about the situation. Hell if they did show up, maybe I would charge them for 30 years of storage.
As long as the VIN numbers come back clean you're golden. How could they find you (you bought them from the guy that had them in storage and sold them to the guy that died, right)? Even in they could do they have proof they are the lawful owners? Once the bonded title comes back with the OK you are fine...
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'80 P200E, '76 Primavera 125 ET3. '59 Vespa 150
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 6445
Location: GT, Texas
Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:47 pm quote
Toodles McFlufffyPants wrote:
I would get it bonded before putting much more work into it. Your time can't be replaced...
Well I'm hoping for the best. While I do consider my time valuable, I also consider the time I'm spending on this one as an education.
Hooked
73 rally 200 85 PK 125
Joined: 19 Feb 2010
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Location: santa cruz
Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:13 pm quote
HonestlyLincoln wrote:
I've been thinking about this a lot, too. The California title I have for my P200 only has a the serial number without the prefix and seems really strange to me and I am afraid that when I go to get a new title they will freak.

My 400s don't have any kind of title. Neither has had a title for 30 years or been on the road since 1967. I am thinking that I will have to go through the bonded title process to title either one of them. It is complicated by the fact that they are so rare that it is hard to ascertain the value of them. I have thought a lot about how I want to register them and although the antique plates sound like they might be good, I was thinking about getting some vintage 1960 plates and using them to register the cars.
the vin on your P most likley got messed up like this.

I bought a rally 200 that had sat in a garage for 10 years (here in CA.) it had a Washington title with bad vin#s as far as California is concerned no reg for 7 years bike does not exist. I had to make an appointment with the California highway patrol and have them fill out a form with both the engine # and vin # from the scoot itself. Both proved to be very worn and hard to read especially the prefix I got lucky in the cop that did the paper work had bought one of the TNG vespas when they returned to the sates and he had downloaded all the stuff about what the #'s should be and got me through and registered the same day if the guy did not know scooters i could very easily see him missing the prefix the C.H.P. paperwork is what the D.M.V. goes off of
Member
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Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:18 pm quote
astromags wrote:
So which states are the lenient ones? I don't know too many people outside TX and LA and CA.
Mississippi is one of the easiest. I titled a car that had a missing title, using the bond process. I still use Mississippi DMV occasionally due to the sometimes ridiculous requirements in LA.
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Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:42 am quote
Rover Eric wrote:
find someone you know in a state where they will title anything, cheaply and easily ( michigan for example ).

Then just set up a straw-man operation ...have them title the scoot for you and "Sell it" back to you.

Bam...now you have a title.
Wink-Wink, Nudge-Nudge... I wonder when Rover Eric will be collecting all his things from his place in MICHIGAN?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'80 P200E, '76 Primavera 125 ET3. '59 Vespa 150
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 6445
Location: GT, Texas
Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:21 am quote
David's Allstate wrote:
Rover Eric wrote:
find someone you know in a state where they will title anything, cheaply and easily ( michigan for example ).

Then just set up a straw-man operation ...have them title the scoot for you and "Sell it" back to you.

Bam...now you have a title.
Wink-Wink, Nudge-Nudge... I wonder when Rover Eric will be collecting all his things from his place in MICHIGAN?
I could never impose...
Banned
79 P200E w/California Sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 395
Location: McKinney Texas
Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:02 am quote
astromags wrote:
David's Allstate wrote:
Rover Eric wrote:
find someone you know in a state where they will title anything, cheaply and easily ( michigan for example ).

Then just set up a straw-man operation ...have them title the scoot for you and "Sell it" back to you.

Bam...now you have a title.
Wink-Wink, Nudge-Nudge... I wonder when Rover Eric will be collecting all his things from his place in MICHIGAN?
I could never impose...
Nor should you impose on the folicly challenged...

Oh, wait, I'm bald too but I have read he shops at Dress Barn...
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'80 P200E, '76 Primavera 125 ET3. '59 Vespa 150
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 6445
Location: GT, Texas
Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:17 am quote
OK I've tried every combination of numbers on the frame and no one will accept the numbers as a valid Vin number.

What am I doing wrong?

On the back of the frame there are sets of info:

The VSXIT

One above that and one below with stars at either end.

Is it all of these numbers some of these numbers a combination of parts of these numbers?

The sticker on the headset has serial # VSXIT 37966 but that's not a valid number according to everyone.

I'm completely confused.

VIN.gif

Hooked
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Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:35 am quote
astromags wrote:
OK I've tried every combination of numbers on the frame and no one will accept the numbers as a valid Vin number.

<stuff>

The sticker on the headset has serial # VSXIT 37966 but that's not a valid number according to everyone.

I'm completely confused.
I am unsure who you mean by *everyone* but yes the VIN for this vehicle is

VSX1T39766, period, thats it, thats the VIN. It is a 1980 Vespa P200E.

Most 'professionals' (meaning insurance, DMV, cops, CARFAX.com etc.) are looking for the post 1981 17-digit VIN standard.

Kindly explain to them that this is a pre-17 digit VIN vehicle and it's VIN is: VSX1T39766

-Luigi
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Last edited by smallstate_luigi on Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'80 P200E, '76 Primavera 125 ET3. '59 Vespa 150
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Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:38 am quote
Thanks for clearing that up, Luigi.
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1962 GS160mk1, 1963 GS160mk2, 1965 SS180, 1974 Rally 200, wife's LI150
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Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:31 am quote
Yeah...you're going to find IGM***** numbers all over your bike, but those aren't the VIN. They have something to do with Italian manufacturing legalities.
Hooked
Classic Vespas, Lambrettas and an Oddscoot. (Now Bella-free!)
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Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:38 pm quote
Rover Eric wrote:
Yeah...you're going to find IGM***** numbers all over your bike, but those aren't the VIN. They have something to do with Italian manufacturing legalities.
"L'Ispettorato generale della Motorizzazione civile e dei trasporti in concessione, con decreto luogotenenziale del 12 dicembre 1944, n. 413, viene posto alle dipendenze del Ministero dei trasporti."

The Inspector General of Motor Vehicles and Transport Concession, an officer of the republic organized by decree 413 on the 12th of December 1944, is organized within the Ministry of Transportation.

The Inspector General is responsible for the certification and type acceptance and compliance of components within motor vehicles, this includes exhausts, frames, horn, engines, carbs, brakes, wheels, etc.

Many parts will have their IGM# stamped on them. These IGM numbers are identical on every part of the same model, VINs however, are designed to be unique. It is the Italian version of CARB or DOT registration. Reproductions may have them, performance parts will probably not. Then again, just because a part has an IGM stamped on it, (especially exhausts and repops like horns) that is not to say that they are valid. In any event, outside of Italy it really doesn't matter.

But god help you if you put it on as a vin, because there is a good chance to be some other mistaken person in your state with it already on thier title and then when they match up you are both in a world of bureaucratic red tape. Just like the person with an Allstate using the 788.944xx number as the VIN, every state has one!

-Luigi
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Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:43 am quote
Looks like one source of confusion is inverting the 2nd and 3rd digit of your vin> your picture looks like *397xx* and you're posting about *379xx*

After registering for title in NC, and getting plates on a 67 Lambretta, my reg was kicked out of the system due to the non-standard 17 digit vin#. Had to take the scooter to the DMV theft bureau, where they took a digital photo of the vin stamped on the frame before they issued the actual title. Make sure your paperwork is correct before you open up another can-o-worms.

Not sure who "everyone" is you are talking about, not cooperating, but maybe try escalating it up the DMV food chain, not just the clerk at the counter. What Luigi said...
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'80 P200E, '76 Primavera 125 ET3. '59 Vespa 150
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Posts: 6445
Location: GT, Texas
Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:59 am quote
The error in the vin is just a typo in this post. I've got it right.

By "everyone" I meant: everyone Ive dealt with so far. Namely ITS and the TX bonded title insurance folks mentioned above and a random "free" title search company on line.

I haven't done much else in the way of attempting to register because a vehicle inspection is required to apply and the scooter won't pass inspection due to the fact it broken down into about a hundred individual parts.

Now that I know for sure what numbers to give them. I shoul be good to go.
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Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:22 am quote
Does your state title non-operational vehicles?
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Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:28 am quote
starreem wrote:
Does your state title non-operational vehicles?
Texas will for a car, don't know if it is different for cycles.
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'80 P200E, '76 Primavera 125 ET3. '59 Vespa 150
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Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:31 am quote
...but they won't inspect them. It's hard to test the brakes on a scooter with no brakes, or wheels, or engine, or...
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Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:34 am quote
Yeah, it is probably easier to get the title and registration done all at once.
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