CVT fr4
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Gilera Fuoco
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Posts: 3
Location: Monza Italy
Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:57 am quote
Hello, I am the club TTW Italy and you point out the novelty in the field of CVT variatori.il FR4 a helicoidal motion, already tested successfully in competition with the Gilera GP800
www.variatore.com
Personally I'm waiting for my 500 model by Fire test, probably for September will be possible to test one of you chose the most competent and influential forum. Just tested write my impressions
Ossessionato
Mp3 500
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 2320
Location: Denver Colorado
Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:47 am quote
Similar to the J Costa??
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21464
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:53 am quote
this variator looks very interesting. Is the web site available in english version? what are the costs of this variator? How much longevity testing has there been on the design?
Lurker
Gilera Fuoco
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Posts: 3
Location: Monza Italy
Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:36 am quote
Rob In Denver wrote:
Similar to the J Costa??
JCosta is Transverse
cvt original is axial
CVT fr4 is rototraslating withtorque on pulley
after september all news
CVT fr4 fpr Gilera GP 800

CVTfr4.jpg

Member
Piaggio Beverly Tourer 400
Joined: 01 Jan 2012
Posts: 19
Location: Pistoia, Tuscany - Italy
Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:34 pm quote
I have mounted cvt-fr4 on my Piaggio Beverly Tourer 400 too,
very good variator!!!!
before i had installed it my Beverly doesn't have a good accelaration from the stop positions, now this variator keeps the rounds of engine in costant level, in this way the engine stays in costant torque at chosen rounds, if you want to increase acceleration you must increase the throttle a little bit and your accelaration increase much more.
This variator is like a torque server in the part of the engine and you permit to decrease fuel consumption because the engine works always on max torque when the engine has the maximum performance in base of fuel consumption, also you have reached the speed desired, for example 100km/h (about 62mph) you can decrease the position of throttle a little bit and the speed doesn't decrease, it's possible by the innovative technology of rototraslant variator that permit to increase the part of belt that works with the surface of variator.
Thing very much important for durability of this variator that is mechanical worked by original variator Piaggio, it's derivated from special works and it has special sliding blocks that permits the special rototraslant movement of variator

cvtFR4_500cc_f001.jpg

Hooked
MP3 400
Joined: 13 Aug 2010
Posts: 287
Location: Chicago, IL
Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:45 pm quote
Looks interesting as well.
Would like to know performance comparison / acceleration times, and costs and availability/// Keep us informed.
Ossessionato
Gilera Fuoco 500ie
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 4088
Location: Netherlands Olst
Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:51 pm quote
looks like spam to me its just another vario like a Malossi or Polini
Member
Piaggio Beverly Tourer 400
Joined: 01 Jan 2012
Posts: 19
Location: Pistoia, Tuscany - Italy
Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:03 pm quote
Theese are the test of acceration done on this variator by the producer with original Piaggio variator and CVT-FR4 variator,
the site is in italian language and the test i post too but it's possible to note the difference of variator work
it doesn't work with engine at the maximum rounds but it works at the maximum torque, it's the evident difference with a sport variator like a Malossi or JCosta or Polini products.
the site is
http://www.variatore.com/sub4/index000.htm

variatoreCVTfr4accelerazione500cc.pdf
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Addicted
Joined: 18 Nov 2009
Posts: 669
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:25 pm quote
Re: Looks interesting as well.
~.

Last edited by JTbme on Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:44 am; edited 1 time in total
Lurker
Joined: 06 Jan 2012
Posts: 2
Location: Italy
Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:09 am quote
Hello,
my name is Stephan and I am a researcher at CVT FR4 R&D.
I was surfing the net while i happened here, I would be glad to help and answer your questions about our products.

I'm also explaining you some things about how this vario works, because i think understanding how thing works is the key to success

First thing I would like to say about our vario is that it has a built-in torque converter, this means the variator can adapt to different torque conditions, i.e. when facing slopes, two passengers onboard and such.
Second thing, "normal" CVTs usually have a lot of belt slipping, our variator works on that too, because it kinda "feels" the slipping on the belt and squeezes it more when necessary, thus offering improved power transmission and efficiency.
Quote:
it doesn't work with engine at the maximum rounds but it works at the maximum torque, it's the evident difference with a sport variator like a Malossi or JCosta or Polini products.
there is a lot of misunderstanding on this subject.
the roller weights we provide with the kit, are a compromise between maximum performance and engine efficiency (fuel consumption, throttle response etc.)
on our design we found out that making the engine rev more, is almost useless, you *think* are having more acceleration, while in fact you are only having more noise and very little more acceleration.

Conventional variators need revs to transmit more power to the wheel, because higher revs mean less torque on the belt, and for conventional cvt, more efficiency.
Our vario is different, it has a torque converter, more grip on the belt, a lot more efficiency.
this is why we can make it work at lower revs.

There are other advantages, i.e. roller last waaaay longer, about double than conventional varios, while cursors (the plastic guides inside) last ALL the life of the vario, so maybe 5-6 times a conventional vario.
The belt also lasts much longer.

I don't want to talk about performance because you can read about that everywhere...

If you have any questions, feel free to ask.
Stephan
Member
Piaggio Beverly Tourer 400
Joined: 01 Jan 2012
Posts: 19
Location: Pistoia, Tuscany - Italy
Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:08 pm quote
nasone32 wrote:
Hello,
my name is Stephan and I am a researcher at CVT FR4 R&D.
Quote:
it doesn't work with engine at the maximum rounds but it works at the maximum torque, it's the evident difference with a sport variator like a Malossi or JCosta or Polini products.
there is a lot of misunderstanding on this subject.
Excuse me
Can you explain what i don't know very well

Probably
if you are a researcher at CVT FR4
you can explain very well the mechanical operating of this variator
and what is rototraslant movement and the relative advantages on the belt.

On my scooter i feel the engine tends to work at a constant number of rounds if i keep the throttle at a constant position, and so it works with stable torque, is it right?
if i request much more torque increasing position of throttle i have much more torque and the variator works to trasmit the much more torque to the belt
In normal variator this doesn't happen because the position of belt is in the function of the load at the wheel and not of the engine torque, right?

there is a way to say the things in Italy
"it's much more important an image than 1000 words"

excuse me for my eventual misunderstanding
Veni, Vidi, Posti
RIP: MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 5278
Location: Austin, TX
Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:06 pm quote
nasone32 wrote:
on our design we found out that making the engine rev more, is almost useless, you *think* are having more acceleration, while in fact you are only having more noise and very little more acceleration.
I've made this point before with the Dr Pulley sliders. You rev like a banshee but nothing much happens - except your fuel consumption goes up.
Addicted
Joined: 18 Nov 2009
Posts: 669
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:13 pm quote
~.

Last edited by JTbme on Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:09 am; edited 1 time in total
Ossessionato
2020 MP3 Sport 500 HPE ABS ASR
Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 4055
Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora Reina de los Ángeles sobre el Río Porciúncula
Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:28 pm quote
BubbaJon wrote:
nasone32 wrote:
on our design we found out that making the engine rev more, is almost useless, you *think* are having more acceleration, while in fact you are only having more noise and very little more acceleration.
I've made this point before with the Dr Pulley sliders. You rev like a banshee but nothing much happens - except your fuel consumption goes up.
Hi Bubba,

Depends on the weight sliders you use. I think the problem some people have is when they go way too light with the sliders and expect some miraculous result. I went with the 16 gram on my 400. The 17 gram are supposed to be closest to the stock rollers, so I didn't get extreme with it. I can't say anything about the relative acceleration, but take-off is smoother with almost none of the "lag" you get about one second in. Mileage is the same.

Of course, they're cheaper and they last longer than the stock rollers, but I guess you can't have everything.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
RIP: MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 5278
Location: Austin, TX
Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:05 pm quote
mpfrank wrote:
BubbaJon wrote:
nasone32 wrote:
on our design we found out that making the engine rev more, is almost useless, you *think* are having more acceleration, while in fact you are only having more noise and very little more acceleration.
I've made this point before with the Dr Pulley sliders. You rev like a banshee but nothing much happens - except your fuel consumption goes up.
Hi Bubba,

Depends on the weight sliders you use. I think the problem some people have is when they go way too light with the sliders and expect some miraculous result. I went with the 16 gram on my 400. The 17 gram are supposed to be closest to the stock rollers, so I didn't get extreme with it. I can't say anything about the relative acceleration, but take-off is smoother with almost none of the "lag" you get about one second in. Mileage is the same.

Of course, they're cheaper and they last longer than the stock rollers, but I guess you can't have everything.
That was it exactly Frank - folks were recommending the 15's for the 500. I had the 16's and it was all smoke with no fire. Leaving teh line it would scream like a banshee and crawl along. There was no torque to get moving along. That's why I moved up to the 18's. The 16's seem to be the best for the 400 - I put mine in PapaBears 400 and he loves them!
That's the big reason I was skeptical about the "colt conversion" where half the rollers are removed. On a 500 that would result in an effective weight of 12 grams! Way too light to be any kind of effective IMHO.
Lurker
MP3 250
Joined: 05 Feb 2012
Posts: 2
Location: Indonesia
Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:43 am quote
nasone32 wrote:
If you have any questions, feel free to ask.
Stephan
Hello all..My name is Ferdy. I'm a new member here..I ride MP3-250 for almost a year and all I can say is my scooter have served me very well

Btw is there any chance to have the variator shipped to my country, Indonesia? If so, where to contact? since I've tried the Variatore.com many times but seems the site is down.

Many thanks in advance
Molto Verboso
MP3 500
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1296
Location: Utah
Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:25 pm quote
nasone32 wrote:
If you have any questions, feel free to ask.
Stephan

1. The complete price for a CVT FR4 variator on a MP3-500 to the States?
2. Is one limited only to your rollers? (Prefer Dr.Pulleys Sliders)


1. Il prezzo completo per un variatore CVT FR4 su un MP3-500 negli Stati Uniti?
2. È una limitata solo ai vostri rulli? (Preferire Sliders Dr.Pulleys)
Lurker
Joined: 06 Jan 2012
Posts: 2
Location: Italy
Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:10 am quote
Hello,
first I want to say i am not here to sell, so if the moderation has
something to complain, contact me.

--
vario for mp3-500 is at 228€ plus shipping (Italy to U.S. with fedex is about 50-70€)
it is limited to our rollers but they last up to 10000km, to almost twice than conventional rollers.
our rollers have a barrel shape, not cylindrical.
--
Drago you can go to www.drbike.it , it's an italian shop that has international language too.
--

for lele:
a torque converter has a simple operation. you already have a torque converter in the rear pulleys, and the vario CVT FR4 works similar way.

The REAR torque converter is used mostly to make pressure on the belt. the spring itself is not enough to prevent the belt from slipping, and what the torque converter do, is to convert rotational torque into axial pressure (so more load means the belt is more squeezed)

The FRONT torque converter (CVT FR4) is used to select the correct ratio on the variator. a conventional variator has only the roller ramps, so it opens only by roller weight and centrifugal force (rpm).

It does not care if you are facing slopes, wind, if you weight 40 or 150 Kgs, if you have a windshield, bags etc.

CVT FR4 can "feel" the torque resistance on the belt, so can keep a shorter ratio if needed, or increase the ratio quickly (thus accelerating faster) when is possible.

There is a side effect: if the belt is slipping, the vario feels a much lower torque on the belt, and it engages a longer ratio by opening more, squeezing the belt exactly like the rear pulleys, and blocking the belt slipping.

SO with CVT FR4 you have more power transmission and an intelligent variator, that adapts to different weight/load conditions.
Ossessionato
Mp3 500
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 2320
Location: Denver Colorado
Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:55 am quote
So, about $400 delivered to the States. i thought i had priced it around $600 about a year ago and decided I just could not do it. $400 is more of a possibility if the economy keeps improving.
Looking at their graphs it looks like to my untrained eye that there is only a little difference between stock, however my friend Mario in Rome tells me this variator turns the 500 into "an animal".
i wish someone here had the bucks and wanted to get one. i remain interested.
Molto Verboso
MP3 500
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1296
Location: Utah
Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:09 am quote
Rob In Denver wrote:
i wish someone here had the bucks and wanted to get one. i remain interested.
Awaiting Summer funds. Pocket lint only goes so far.
Ossessionato
MP3 500 - GTV250
Joined: 07 Jul 2010
Posts: 2968
Location: Near Pittsburgh
Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:24 am quote
nasone32 wrote:
Hello,
first I want to say i am not here to sell, so if the moderation has
something to complain, contact me.
..................
SO with CVT FR4 you have more power transmission and an intelligent variator, that adapts to different weight/load conditions.
This is very good information and very clear. Thank You.
Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 37894
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:37 pm quote
Hmm... useful on Cannonball or not? Probably not - I don't need extra acceleration, I don't want slightly lower mpg - but I might want the(unspecified, but probable) extra engine braking.

But I'd love to try one in the Hornet.
Addicted
MP3-250 Tiger 1050 Moto Guzzi V7 Stone
Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 862
Location: Central Coast, California
Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:30 pm quote
If they make one for the 250 I'd take the bullet and order one up to try out. I've already spent money on the HiT clutch that didn't work out along with the J Costa variator which seems to work on the 400/500 but causes abnormal wear on the 250's ramp plates. What is one more attempt eh? It could work out.
Ossessionato
Mp3 500
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 2320
Location: Denver Colorado
Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:23 pm quote
Here is the link for the 250....good news, cheaper than for the 500,

http://www.drbike.it/en/maxi-scooter-125cc-to-300cc
Addicted
MP3-250 Tiger 1050 Moto Guzzi V7 Stone
Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 862
Location: Central Coast, California
Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:56 pm quote
Rob In Denver wrote:
Here is the link for the 250....good news, cheaper than for the 500,

http://www.drbike.it/en/maxi-scooter-125cc-to-300cc
Email sent to drbike.it!
Ossessionato
Mp3 500
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 2320
Location: Denver Colorado
Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:39 am quote
Give me a day or so and I will check with the Italian forum to see if anyone has input on how these do on the 250.
Ossessionato
Mp3 500
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 2320
Location: Denver Colorado
Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:34 pm quote
Here is the reply from Mario, President of the Three Wheelers, Rome:


Second, yes the CVT FR4 is good for 250, increase the performances!
But in 500 engine is a "monster"!

I'm enjoy to know that you are well!

Ciao

Mario
Addicted
MP3-250 Tiger 1050 Moto Guzzi V7 Stone
Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 862
Location: Central Coast, California
Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:57 pm quote
Rob In Denver wrote:
Here is the reply from Mario, President of the Three Wheelers, Rome:


Second, yes the CVT FR4 is good for 250, increase the performances!
But in 500 engine is a "monster"!

I'm enjoy to know that you are well!

Ciao

Mario
Thanks, still mulling it over as the bike is running fine now. Price quote came back at 206.5 euros or about $275 at today's exchange rate. Decisions decisions.
Lurker
MP3 250
Joined: 05 Feb 2012
Posts: 2
Location: Indonesia
Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:54 am quote
nasone32 wrote:
Hello,
first I want to say i am not here to sell, so if the moderation has
something to complain, contact me.

--
vario for mp3-500 is at 228€ plus shipping (Italy to U.S. with fedex is about 50-70€)
it is limited to our rollers but they last up to 10000km, to almost twice than conventional rollers.
our rollers have a barrel shape, not cylindrical.
--
Drago you can go to www.drbike.it , it's an italian shop that has international language too.
--

for lele:
a torque converter has a simple operation. you already have a torque converter in the rear pulleys, and the vario CVT FR4 works similar way.

The REAR torque converter is used mostly to make pressure on the belt. the spring itself is not enough to prevent the belt from slipping, and what the torque converter do, is to convert rotational torque into axial pressure (so more load means the belt is more squeezed)

The FRONT torque converter (CVT FR4) is used to select the correct ratio on the variator. a conventional variator has only the roller ramps, so it opens only by roller weight and centrifugal force (rpm).

It does not care if you are facing slopes, wind, if you weight 40 or 150 Kgs, if you have a windshield, bags etc.

CVT FR4 can "feel" the torque resistance on the belt, so can keep a shorter ratio if needed, or increase the ratio quickly (thus accelerating faster) when is possible.

There is a side effect: if the belt is slipping, the vario feels a much lower torque on the belt, and it engages a longer ratio by opening more, squeezing the belt exactly like the rear pulleys, and blocking the belt slipping.

SO with CVT FR4 you have more power transmission and an intelligent variator, that adapts to different weight/load conditions.
Waiting for feedback from drbike.it hope they can ship it fast Thanks for the info, Nasone32
Molto Verboso
GTS 300
Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 1503
Location: Belgium
Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:36 pm quote
Do you have test results of this vario on a Vespa GTS 300 ?
Molto Verboso
GTS 300
Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 1503
Location: Belgium
Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:44 am quote
No tests yet ?
Ossessionato
Mp3 500
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 2320
Location: Denver Colorado
Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:47 am quote
Anyones guess what happened with this, I am guessing he might have backed out ( like I did) when I tallied up the cost.
If you do a google search now, you will come up with pages of results, mostly in Italian, but from what I can see, this indeed seems a big improvement if you can and will spend the money for it.
I am surprised some here hasn't taken the plunge.
These days I am less interested in gooseing up my 500s power since I have it downgraded to around town status only. It goes fast enough for that.
Hooked
Vespa ET4 150, Ebony.
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Posts: 368
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:55 am quote
It does seem like an answer to a few issues but at the price it'll be a long time before I get one, might be on my 3rd or 4th scoot by then.
Mega.
Hooked
MP3 400
Joined: 18 Mar 2010
Posts: 267
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:11 am quote
mpfrank wrote:
BubbaJon wrote:
nasone32 wrote:
on our design we found out that making the engine rev more, is almost useless, you *think* are having more acceleration, while in fact you are only having more noise and very little more acceleration.
I've made this point before with the Dr Pulley sliders. You rev like a banshee but nothing much happens - except your fuel consumption goes up.
Hi Bubba,

Depends on the weight sliders you use. I think the problem some people have is when they go way too light with the sliders and expect some miraculous result. I went with the 16 gram on my 400. The 17 gram are supposed to be closest to the stock rollers, so I didn't get extreme with it. I can't say anything about the relative acceleration, but take-off is smoother with almost none of the "lag" you get about one second in. Mileage is the same.

Of course, they're cheaper and they last longer than the stock rollers, but I guess you can't have everything.
Not sure weight has anything to do with smooth take-off other than the fact if weights are too light the scoot just doesn't take-off? I have DP18's and will be installing them over Christmas.
Hooked
MP3 400
Joined: 18 Mar 2010
Posts: 267
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:14 am quote
BubbaJon wrote:
nasone32 wrote:
on our design we found out that making the engine rev more, is almost useless, you *think* are having more acceleration, while in fact you are only having more noise and very little more acceleration.
I've made this point before with the Dr Pulley sliders. You rev like a banshee but nothing much happens - except your fuel consumption goes up.
Wonder what the longevity of the FR4's are in comparison to the DP's?
Molto Verboso
GTS 300
Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 1503
Location: Belgium
Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:26 am quote
Rob In Denver wrote:
Anyones guess what happened with this, I am guessing he might have backed out ( like I did) when I tallied up the cost.
In case of the Vespa 300, it's a cheap solution.

If you consider it's a variator AND a torque converter in one, you can only compare it to the Malossi vario + torque converter combo.
As far as i know, nor Polini or costa sells a torque converter.

I can buy the "variatore" for 173 € (+-$223).

The Malossi combo would cost me : variator = 110 € (+-$142) + torque converter = 200 € (+-$259).

That's +- $ 401 for the Malossi combo OR $ 223 for the variatore.
Ossessionato
Mp3 500
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 2320
Location: Denver Colorado
Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:18 pm quote
somehow when I priced it out with shipping to the states and the exchange rate I was up at $600 for my 500.
Hooked
MP3 400
Joined: 27 Apr 2009
Posts: 230
Location: Winchester, VA
Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:23 pm quote
It looks like you can buy these on eBay-Italy.

CVT FR4 - Piaggio MP3-400

At 220 Euros - that's not that bad.
Ossessionato
Mp3 500
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 2320
Location: Denver Colorado
Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:57 pm quote
i might go for it in that price range, maybe i hd it figured wrong before.
so thats maybe $300 plus shipping. $400 give or take?
When the Jcosta poops out, its a likelyhood.
Member
Piaggio Beverly Tourer 400
Joined: 01 Jan 2012
Posts: 19
Location: Pistoia, Tuscany - Italy
Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:57 am quote
CheeseWellDone wrote:
BubbaJon wrote:
nasone32 wrote:
on our design we found out that making the engine rev more, is almost useless, you *think* are having more acceleration, while in fact you are only having more noise and very little more acceleration.
I've made this point before with the Dr Pulley sliders. You rev like a banshee but nothing much happens - except your fuel consumption goes up.
Wonder what the longevity of the FR4's are in comparison to the DP's?
I have cvt-fr4 on Beverly 400 since 20 months and 20000km about
originally with 17g rollers (that provided by produceer)
For me in this configuration too fast, if i wanted the rear wheel i can do to drift,
so i prefer a configuration softer than the original and i have mounted 18g rollers (provided for 500users). After 12000km i changed the rollers and the belt and recently i have controlled the status of variator, the sliders are in optimum status like the rollers,
in this configuration i have less acceleration than the original but in the transition on-off fro 70-140km/h it's very fast
Recently i have contacted the variator producer to know the duration of sliders and he have ensured me over 20000-30000km it depends from the use you make, the only attention to take is the tollerance of the plate inside the sliders and the perfet balanced rotation of pulley typical of this variator
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