The "NOTCH" after just 2000 miles following repair
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Molto Verboso
Honda CTX 700D
Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: Louisville, KY
Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:22 pm quote
The dealer "fixed" my problem just less than 2000 miles ago. It was handled as an extended warranty repair. WHOO HOO! Now they are claiming no responsibility since they followed the manfacturers procedure in completing the repairs.

I tried my best to help them "do it right" but they had their own ways and no input was necessary. So here I am. Ready for the Gonzo Twist as a stopgap measure just to get back on the road safely. Does anyone know how long the "Twist" will last?

I guess it's my own fault since I already knew they were the same dealer that Hollbry had the problem with her key situation (which I had to tell them how to fix after six weeks of her discussing it with them and their lack of understanding).

I guess the state of Piaggio trained mechanics is pretty sorry in the midwest. Mechanically there just isn't much to one of these. Maybe some of you have better service centers. It probably explains why there are so few and becoming fewer.

I just had to vent a bit, there's not anything about this that I can't do. Just didn't believe the knowledge base was so slight at the dealerships. My grandfather always told me ..."if you want any job done right, if you can, do it yourself". He was right again!
Hooked
MP3 400
Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Posts: 130
Location: Clovis, Ca
Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:24 pm quote
I'm feeling the same way with my dealership sometimes.
I was REALLY impressed with Vespa Santa Cruz, they did right by me and had the best service I've seen related to motor vehicles.
Ossessionato
Mp3 500
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 2320
Location: Denver Colorado
Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:52 pm quote
Its bleak everywhere it seems for any competent help with the front end of these bikes. I guess we all figured as much when we bought them, knew we would have a problem someday.
Still, your case points out the issue. If a mechanic says he is going to go by the book on this issue, you should not let them work on the bike.
When I called the Local mechanic today, and asked if he knew about and would get the Piaggio bearing tool for me, he, not surprisingly did not know about it, and he asked with a certain derision in his voice where I had heard of it? He knew it came from online. They seem to be of the opinion that anything learned or heard of online is always bunk. Thats one of the reasons they will not be working on my bike. They would never in a million years follow instructions learned on a forum. And I refuse to pay them to do it wrong, by following the manual.
Addicted
Previously:Fuoco 500ie with Active Suspension. Now: CTX700
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 663
Location: Sydney, Australia
Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:09 pm quote
Re: The "NOTCH" after just 2000 miles following re
ponydrvr wrote:
.
Does anyone know how long the "Twist" will last?

The "Tweak" hasn't been around long enough to work that out. However, unless you've got really badly made/damaged bearings, and unless you over-tighten the nuts after doing the tweak, the tweak should last a long time - pretty much as long as a standard bearing would be expected to last.

All that happens with the tweak is that you turn the roller cage around a bit so that the rollers are bearing on a new surface when the steering is pointed straight ahead. Hopefully the new surfaces will not have been previously damaged by overtightening.

Don't forget to lube the bearings at the same time. As JimC points out the most important thing is to get the pre-load right. Good lube just helps.

Gonzo
Banned
MP3 500
Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 4530
Location: Ashburn, Va
Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:48 am quote
Was the warranty a Piaggio or aftermarket? If it's Piaggio, they are still responsible to repair it, unless it has been more then 6 months, I think. Could be up to a year depending on the state.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
RIP: MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 5278
Location: Austin, TX
Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:34 am quote
What *really* pisses me off is when you try to pass along good info and they poo-poo it because "it came from the internet". Probably the same mindset that rejected spears over clubs when they came out. I actually got into with one guy and told him I would trust the word of a generally well thought of but personally unknown Brit across the ocean before I would trust him, who was an absolute unknown quantity. Most bad mechanics I've run into are very insecure and defensive - they don't *want* to listen - it's probably new and requires thinking.
Molto Verboso
2007 Piaggio MP3 250 (sold) and 2009 MP3 400
Joined: 30 Jun 2010
Posts: 1842
Location: Floyds Knobs IN
Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:03 am quote
Dang! Sorry to hear that it has happened again. I still think he should keep fixing it until it is fixed properly. Maybe he will get tired of you taking it up there, and actually listen to suggestions.
Pnydrvr, how about you become a certified MP3 mechanic? Then everyone in the Midwest will have a knowledgeable mechanic to go to!
Member
mp3 500
Joined: 26 Jan 2011
Posts: 40
Location: Hopatcong, NJ
Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:37 pm quote
I believe you need the upgraded SKF made bearings. Older one are made in China.
Molto Verboso
Honda CTX 700D
Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: Louisville, KY
Sat Sep 03, 2011 4:13 am quote
StooterBoy: The warranty was by Zurich, I have no issues with them. They did ALL they were supposed to do and without question I would use them again.

hollybry: I agree that it should go back to them for correction. In my initial discussion he made it very clear that it was going to be an ugly contest. Since he wasn't getting paid for the labor he wasn't going to be in a hurry to get it done. He had it for near three weeks the first time and it was a priority ! I don't want any contests with anyone nor do I accept that this is such a difficult task to do that it takes three weeks to complete the first time. I will never take my scoot to them for anything again. I said earlier that I could do the repair and I can, I have the time and the tools.

Ho_Ho: Your likely right in that the original Korean made bearings and the OEM replacements are not made from Timken Bearing Steel. I have ordered a set of Timken bearings for the next time around. Where Piaggio seems to "get you" is with the ball thrust bearings and races along with the dirt sheilds. If I could find those parts seperately all would be golden.

Finally, The "Tweak" went just fine yesterday as I knew it would. Thanks Gonzo for that bright idea. In just a short test ride I could tell that the notch was gone. It didnt take much time at all to complete. It did take longer to remove and replace the skins than the "fix". So all is well now and I join the ranks of the "TWEAKERS".

What I found during the initial inspection and subsequent repair was dealer incompetance and apparent deciet at the highest level. The right side top nut was locked down so tight that I had to use a small sledge and a chisel to loosen. I twisted the Piagio special spanner tool trying to release the locking nut. They "followed the book" on the repair. Yet it took a smaller hammer and chisel to loosen the loading nut. The Piaggio tool would not loosen the nut! But the bearing was greased well! The loading was reset the top nut set to the correct load with a torgue wrench and the side was done.

The left side was a totally different story. That lock nut wasn't even snug let alone tight, there was about a 1/8th" gap between it and the hydraulic bracket assembly. The load nut was also to tight to move with the spanner tool so back to the hammer and chisel. Losened the nut twisted the roller cage reset to "O" load and then reset the locking nut to the proper torque. The worst thing is that by all appearances the left side bearings were were never replaced! It hard to visualize how the components could have so much rust and dirt on the dirt sheilds and nuts compared to the other side.

I'm just going to mark this up to another lesson learned and do my own maintenance. What else is there to do? Incompetance will be it's own reward.
Banned
MP3 500
Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 4530
Location: Ashburn, Va
Sat Sep 03, 2011 4:25 am quote
ponydrvr wrote:
StooterBoy: The warranty was by Zurich, I have no issues with them. They did ALL they were supposed to do and without question I would use them again.
The dealer didn't do the job right, the warranty should pay to have it done again. That's why I asked. When you said they wouldn't repair it again, I knew you had an aftermarket warranty. If you had bought a Piaggio warranty you could go to Piaggio, who would make the dealer do the repair again. Manufactures can make a dealer do stuff an aftermarket company with no dealer relationship can't.
Member
09 mp3 500, 09 Yamaha TMax
Joined: 24 Jan 2011
Posts: 43
Location: Ohio
Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:23 am quote
ponydrvr,

My bikes fine but just wondering how long it takes to do the tweak? Oh, and what's that picture of in your avatar?
Hooked
2011 Gilera Fuoco (Grigio Titanio)
Joined: 28 Oct 2010
Posts: 106
Location: UK Peak Park
Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:29 am quote
What is the SKF or Timken part no's for the bearings, please
243
Molto Verboso
Honda CTX 700D
Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: Louisville, KY
Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:46 am quote
Mikexup wrote:
ponydrvr,

My bikes fine but just wondering how long it takes to do the tweak? Oh, and what's that picture of in your avatar?
The tweak takes maybe twenty minutes total for both sides. It's removing and replacing the plastic skin on a 400 that takes about thirty minutes each.

My avatar is my helmet on sale for $29.95 @ a country store on the Bluegrass Parkway. I set it down on a shelf inside since it was hotter than h*** outside during a riding break. Someone (?) Saw it. The rest is what you see.
Molto Verboso
Honda CTX 700D
Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: Louisville, KY
Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:49 am quote
TwoFourThree wrote:
What is the SKF or Timken part no's for the bearings, please
243
I'll have to get you that later today, I am doing some modification to my GPS mount today.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21360
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:51 am quote
ponydrvr wrote:
Mikexup wrote:
ponydrvr,

My bikes fine but just wondering how long it takes to do the tweak? Oh, and what's that picture of in your avatar?
The tweak takes maybe twenty minutes total for both sides. It's removing and replacing the plastic skin on a 400 that takes about thirty minutes each.

My avatar is my helmet on sale for $29.95 @ a country store on the Bluegrass Parkway. I set it down on a shelf inside since it was hotter than h*** outside during a riding break. Someone (?) Saw it. The rest is what you see.
your not referring to me now are you . in Erkels voice, did I do that?
Molto Verboso
Honda CTX 700D
Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: Louisville, KY
Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:54 am quote
StooterBoy wrote:
ponydrvr wrote:
StooterBoy: The warranty was by Zurich, I have no issues with them. They did ALL they were supposed to do and without question I would use them again.
The dealer didn't do the job right, the warranty should pay to have it done again. That's why I asked. When you said they wouldn't repair it again, I knew you had an aftermarket warranty. If you had bought a Piaggio warranty you could go to Piaggio, who would make the dealer do the repair again. Manufactures can make a dealer do stuff an aftermarket company with no dealer relationship can't.
Maybe what you say is right, don't know. I do believe they are responsible for correctng their mistakes. I am also certain they lack the integrity and competence to do so.
Molto Verboso
Honda CTX 700D
Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: Louisville, KY
Sat Sep 03, 2011 4:33 pm quote
TwoFourThree wrote:
What is the SKF or Timken part no's for the bearings, please
243
The OEM is a KBC 32008XJ. The Timken is 32008XM 90KM1 BRG. I have ordered them from Motion Industries but AutoZone may also have it since it a common bearing used in automotive differentials.

Hope that helps.
Addicted
MP3-250 Tiger 1050 Moto Guzzi V7 Stone
Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 862
Location: Central Coast, California
Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:18 pm quote
ponydrvr wrote:
TwoFourThree wrote:
What is the SKF or Timken part no's for the bearings, please
243
The OEM is a KBC 32008XJ. The Timken is 32008XM 90KM1 BRG. I have ordered them from Motion Industries but AutoZone may also have it since it a common bearing used in automotive differentials.

Hope that helps.
Thanks for the part numbers, I'm going to need to change out the bearings on my scoot soon and buying the Timken's at a much lower price than you can find the Piaggio OEM set is fantastic. The dust shield will take some thinking on how to replace it but it isn't a close tolerance piece so making something up would probably work.
Addicted
MP3-250 Tiger 1050 Moto Guzzi V7 Stone
Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 862
Location: Central Coast, California
Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:23 pm quote
Since the race is the part that gets notched I may just try to replace it and not tear the roller bearing off the suspension arm. I looked up the Timken part that ponydrvr listed and found out there is a separate part numbers for the cone and the cup
http://www2.timken.com/marketplace/proddetail.asp?src=c&pn=32008XM&assy=90KM1&lpn=32008XM90KM1

Might be worth a shot if I can get the cups without the cones. I'm also thinking that taking the bike apart to this degree would make it sensible to replace the roller as well with a higher quality Timken and do the job right. I'm not sure yet what I'll do.

If you do a google search for 32008 bearing, you get even more suppliers of the correct size bearing since 32008 is a standard industry size for a tapered roller bearing. I found some Timkins for around $20 but I might just get some made in japan Nachi's that I can buy from Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/32008-Nachi-Tapered-Roller-Bearing/dp/B0056JILL0/ref=sr_1_2?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1315111966&sr=1-2

Last edited by Zinfan on Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
NC700XD
Joined: 28 Dec 2009
Posts: 1372
Location: Richmond, VA
Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:41 pm quote
Zinfan wrote:
Since the race is the part that gets notched I may just try to replace it and not tear the roller bearing off the suspension arm. I looked up the Timken part that ponydrvr listed and found out there is a separate part numbers for the cone and the cup
http://www2.timken.com/marketplace/proddetail.asp?src=c&pn=32008XM&assy=90KM1&lpn=32008XM90KM1

Might be worth a shot if I can get the cups without the cones. I'm also thinking that taking the bike apart to this degree would make it sensible to replace the roller as well with a higher quality Timken and do the job right. I'm not sure yet what I'll do.
I like this idea a lot!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21360
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:17 am quote
Zinfan wrote:
Since the race is the part that gets notched I may just try to replace it and not tear the roller bearing off the suspension arm. I looked up the Timken part that ponydrvr listed and found out there is a separate part numbers for the cone and the cup
http://www2.timken.com/marketplace/proddetail.asp?src=c&pn=32008XM&assy=90KM1&lpn=32008XM90KM1

Might be worth a shot if I can get the cups without the cones. I'm also thinking that taking the bike apart to this degree would make it sensible to replace the roller as well with a higher quality Timken and do the job right. I'm not sure yet what I'll do.

If you do a google search for 32008 bearing, you get even more suppliers of the correct size bearing since 32008 is a standard industry size for a tapered roller bearing. I found some Timkins for around $20 but I might just get some made in japan Nachi's that I can buy from Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/32008-Nachi-Tapered-Roller-Bearing/dp/B0056JILL0/ref=sr_1_2?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1315111966&sr=1-2
since you have to have it all the way apart just for the race , doesn't it just make sense to replace the bearing while your there? You would sure kick your self in the pants if you had to take it all apart after you got it together because the bearing isn't acting right or failing in a 1000 miles.
Don't half ass it.
Molto Verboso
Honda CTX 700D
Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: Louisville, KY
Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:27 am quote
old as dirt wrote:
Zinfan wrote:
Since the race is the part that gets notched I may just try to replace it and not tear the roller bearing off the suspension arm. I looked up the Timken part that ponydrvr listed and found out there is a separate part numbers for the cone and the cup
http://www2.timken.com/marketplace/proddetail.asp?src=c&pn=32008XM&assy=90KM1&lpn=32008XM90KM1

Might be worth a shot if I can get the cups without the cones. I'm also thinking that taking the bike apart to this degree would make it sensible to replace the roller as well with a higher quality Timken and do the job right. I'm not sure yet what I'll do.

If you do a google search for 32008 bearing, you get even more suppliers of the correct size bearing since 32008 is a standard industry size for a tapered roller bearing. I found some Timkins for around $20 but I might just get some made in japan Nachi's that I can buy from Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/32008-Nachi-Tapered-Roller-Bearing/dp/B0056JILL0/ref=sr_1_2?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1315111966&sr=1-2
since you have to have it all the way apart just for the race , doesn't it just make sense to replace the bearing while your there? You would sure kick your self in the pants if you had to take it all apart after you got it together because the bearing isn't acting right or failing in a 1000 miles.
Don't half ass it.
I agree with OAD. Even though the outer race is designed to be the sacrificial element in a taper bearing set, it has always been best practice to replace the full set. You're only talking $25-$35 anyway and it mostlikely will pevent premature failure in the future. If it was my money I ALWAYS buy the best bearing available spec'ed for the application. The aggravation just isn't worth the money saved.
Hooked
2011 Gilera Fuoco (Grigio Titanio)
Joined: 28 Oct 2010
Posts: 106
Location: UK Peak Park
Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:46 am quote
Thanks ponydrvr for the bearing info will bookmark this thread for sure. It makes sense to replace as much as possible (within reason) at the time of repair and to get better specked components if out there.
Thanks again.
243
Hooked
Piaggio Liberty S 150 (Retired: Piaggio MP3 500)
Joined: 27 Jul 2010
Posts: 416
Location: Alabama
Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:38 pm quote
Zinfan wrote:
Since the race is the part that gets notched I may just try to replace it and not tear the roller bearing off the suspension arm. I looked up the Timken part that ponydrvr listed and found out there is a separate part numbers for the cone and the cup
http://www2.timken.com/marketplace/proddetail.asp?src=c&pn=32008XM&assy=90KM1&lpn=32008XM90KM1

Might be worth a shot if I can get the cups without the cones. I'm also thinking that taking the bike apart to this degree would make it sensible to replace the roller as well with a higher quality Timken and do the job right. I'm not sure yet what I'll do.

If you do a google search for 32008 bearing, you get even more suppliers of the correct size bearing since 32008 is a standard industry size for a tapered roller bearing. I found some Timkins for around $20 but I might just get some made in japan Nachi's that I can buy from Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/32008-Nachi-Tapered-Roller-Bearing/dp/B0056JILL0/ref=sr_1_2?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1315111966&sr=1-2
Have followed all the posts on the notch with great interest for the past year and a half--scared the heck of out my wife after investing in two of these bad boys and getting the custom paint jobs last year. Got both our 500 scoots re-torqued at 1K and 400 miles respectively at a pretty reputable shop (guy mentioned that he refers to this board from time to time as well) using the appropriate "special tool" and the 2010 Piaggio technical note/service bulletin (did we ever conclude that THOSE torque values were correct; 12-15 Nm for the lower ring nut and 20-24 for the upper ring nut...I could never tell for certain with all the "make sure you back off the nut by XXX degrees talk).

But on the off chance that the bearings get "notchy" down the road, I'm not entirely clear how to read all the information above. Are you saying that if you want to do a FULL bearings replacement to get rid of the notch using non-OEM parts, you'll need both the cup and cone AND the bearings as well? I think that's how I read this, but just wanted to be certain. Thanks!
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