Extra Fuel tank
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Enthusiast
Gilera Fuoco
Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Posts: 94
Location: Woy Woy NSW
Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:45 pm quote
I find the fuel range on my Fuoco is just not quite big enough for the distances I ride so have been looking at the easiest and simplest way to increase its fuel capacity. After a lot of thought about increasing the capacity of the existing tank I think the easiest way is to make up an extra fuel tank that can just dump into the existing tank when it is getting near empty. I have looked at a lot of options but there arent too many easy places to mount one. My current thinking is to mount a horseshoe shaped one around the base of my topbox (this is a box similar to the Givi 56 litre box). Either use 4" aluminum or stainless tubing or just make up a horseshoe shape from two 90 deg 4" truck exhaust pipe bends, mounting them with clamps off the existing Fuoco grab rails so the tank goes around the base of my topbox but high enough so it doesnt intefere with the existing tail lights. I calculate this will hold around 10 litres. This will have an on/off drain tap on it. Under the bike at the rear and bottom of the existing fuel tank there is an extension that has been designed (but not fitted) for a drain. It will take a hose and clamp, just drill a hole in the existing tank and clamp a hose over it. It does not have to be that big, so will probably reduce down to about 3/8" hose and then run it up to my on/off tap on the auxiliary tank. The idea is that when my original 14 litre tank is nearly empty I can then open the tap mounted under my auxilary tank and the 10 litres from my auxilary tank will then run down into the main tank.
The other option I have considered is to relocate the existing taillights higher and make up a tank assemply where they are currently located. It would still be high enough to run into the existing tank. Around 10 litres is the ideal size, as all I am looking to do is to run the existing 14 litre tank down low enough so I can just gravity dump around 10 litres into it.
Any comments/suggestions/better ideas?
Addicted
Fuoco 500ie with Active Suspension
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 662
Location: Sydney, Australia
Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:58 am quote
The main tank's 12 litres, not 14.

A lot of members have looked at this problem, and they either give up or buy a properly made fuel container and stash it somewhere. Making a fuel tank is tricky.

Gonzo
Banned
MP3 500
Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 4530
Location: Ashburn, Va
Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:19 am quote
Look into Jess's Cannonball Run tank mod. You loose the rear rack area though. Someone did the same thing on a MP3 250. Think it was 5 Gals.
Molto Verboso
NC700XD
Joined: 28 Dec 2009
Posts: 1372
Location: Richmond, VA
Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:28 am quote
I think his name is Malroy.
Banned
MP3 500
Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 4530
Location: Ashburn, Va
Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:54 am quote
Yes, that's him.
Enthusiast
Gilera Fuoco
Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Posts: 94
Location: Woy Woy NSW
Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:21 pm quote
Hi Gonzo, I want all the storage I can get, which is why I dont want to be mucking round with fuel cans. And yes, forgot it is 12 not 14 litres.
With my proposed system you dont have to muck around refilling, just open the tap and keep driving.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 17934
Location: Kingston, Tennessee, Tn
Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:56 pm quote
plbuckland wrote:
Hi Gonzo, I want all the storage I can get, which is why I dont want to be mucking round with fuel cans. And yes, forgot it is 12 not 14 litres.
With my proposed system you dont have to muck around refilling, just open the tap and keep driving.
and we are waiting on pics.
Moderaptor
2xGP800, Fuoco, X9 500 Evo, The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug), 'Olive' (GT200) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:24 pm quote
old as dirt wrote:
plbuckland wrote:
Hi Gonzo, I want all the storage I can get, which is why I dont want to be mucking round with fuel cans. And yes, forgot it is 12 not 14 litres.
With my proposed system you dont have to muck around refilling, just open the tap and keep driving.
and we are waiting on pics.
Pressurised system - beware.

Jess's solution worked, don't ignore it.
Enthusiast
Gilera Fuoco
Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Posts: 94
Location: Woy Woy NSW
Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:48 pm quote
Hi Jimc, my tank appears to be vented, not pressurised. If I blow into the filler I can hear the air escaping. Also if I fill it to the top of the filler (without spilling it) the fuel level will drop to about 3/4" below the top of the filler and that fuel just runs out on the ground. Maybe the Australian specs are different to the US ones.
I did a search for Jess's solution but didnt see it. But if it involves using the carrier it is no good to me as I already have a topbox there I wish to retain. My plan is to build a tank around the base of the topbox. But as I have a busy program on it may not get done until Christmas.
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 (sold) MP3 500 (current)
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 19111
Location: welaka, florida
Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:01 am quote
There is some discussion of it here http://www.scootercannonball.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1790

And a couple of them here including a pic of Jess's set up.
Taboo subject? Do you carry spare gas ?
Hooked
Piaggio MP3 400ie
Joined: 25 Jul 2011
Posts: 343
Location: AZ
Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:27 am quote
plbuckland wrote:
But if it involves using the carrier it is no good to me
you should check it out, it's in place of the top box, but is fead by gravity.
Enthusiast
Gilera Fuoco
Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Posts: 94
Location: Woy Woy NSW
Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:34 pm quote
Finally got my tank made up and working. It isnt quite finished off but it works well enough. The tank holds just under 6 litres. When the main tank is low enough I open a ball valve and the tank gravity feeds into the main tank. The main tank has a "spout" underneath at the bottom and back of the tank which can be drilled and tapped. One word of warning - if you are tapping it out it os quite deep, but use a long threaded fitting so it goes well into the "spout".

The tank is mounted above the exhaust with allowance for the spring to be able to bottom out without touching. The tank basically hangs off the main frame with two side braces.

2011-11-02 15.48 sml.jpg

2011-11-02 2 sml.jpg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
. . 2008 Blue MP3 400. . di Peluria Orso .... 1993 Kawasaki Vulcan 500 ....... 2013 Honda NC700XD
Joined: 02 Jun 2008
Posts: 5944
Location: Milledgeville, GA
Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:17 am quote
Inovative installation. I do worry about heat from the exhaust right under the tank. Just sitting on the seat will make it closer. When not moving the heat goes straight up and will continue to do so for some time after turning off the engine.
Banned
MP3 500
Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 4530
Location: Ashburn, Va
Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:19 am quote
And over fills dump right on the exhaust too
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MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 5048
Location: Austin, TX
Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:21 am quote
StooterBoy wrote:
And over fills dump right on the exhaust too
Yeah - not the side I would have picked either. But it *is* cool!
Moderaptor
2xGP800, Fuoco, X9 500 Evo, The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug), 'Olive' (GT200) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:23 am quote
What is the perceived problem of fuel spillage on the exhaust? Puzzled.
Ossessionato
Red MP3 500 RUBY DRAGON
Joined: 29 Nov 2008
Posts: 2565
Location: Northern CA
Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:26 am quote
Can you post some more in-focus pictures?
Molto Verboso
NC700XD
Joined: 28 Dec 2009
Posts: 1372
Location: Richmond, VA
Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:15 am quote
jimc wrote:
What is the perceived problem of fuel spillage on the exhaust? Puzzled.
I think it's that good old fashioned fear of the Apocalypse. I'm not a religious scholar or a scientist, but if fuel got on that exhaust, there'd probably be some sort of Large Hadron Collider-esque explosion.

Or it could just be a healthy fear of adding gasoline to a heat source.

Neat solution, I'm curious to see how it works out in practice. If we don't hear back from plbuckland then I'll just assume that there's a small black hole in that part of the world.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 17934
Location: Kingston, Tennessee, Tn
Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:23 am quote
Cagedodger wrote:
jimc wrote:
What is the perceived problem of fuel spillage on the exhaust? Puzzled.
I think it's that good old fashioned fear of the Apocalypse. I'm not a religious scholar or a scientist, but if fuel got on that exhaust, there'd probably be some sort of Large Hadron Collider-esque explosion.

Or it could just be a healthy fear of adding gasoline to a heat source.

Neat solution, I'm curious to see how it works out in practice. If we don't hear back from plbuckland then I'll just assume that there's a small black hole in that part of the world.
watching too many Mad Max films?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 5048
Location: Austin, TX
Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:24 am quote
jimc wrote:
What is the perceived problem of fuel spillage on the exhaust? Puzzled.
C'mon Jim - it's a friggin catalytic converter. I've set grass on fire with mine - spilt gasoline has *got* to be easier to ignite than tall grass. Filler is directly above exhaust.
Banned
MP3 500
Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 4530
Location: Ashburn, Va
Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:27 am quote
When I was a kid visiting my Grand Parents in Michigan on their farm, a neighbor was filling his tractor. Fuel drips down on the hot exhaust and vaporized, the sparks produced in the alternator ignited the fumes and the whole thing goes up in flames.
Yes, he had left the tractor running, but gas near hot exhaust is not a good thing, make it just right to be ignited very easily.
Molto Verboso
2009 MP3 400
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 1742
Location: Upstate N.Y.
Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:29 am quote
MP3 owner's manual:

DUE TO THE HIGH TEMPERATURES THE CATALYTIC CONVERTER CAN REACH, ALWAYS TAKE CARE, WHEN PARKING THE SCOOTER, THAT THE EXHAUST DOES NOT COME INTO CONTACT WITH FLAMMABLE MATERIALS, TO AVOID SERIOUS BURNS.

The ignition temperature of gasoline at standard atmosphere is reportedly 536 F (280 C). Anybody know the temperature of a hot MP3 exhaust? Would be an interesting experiment to measure the temp of the pipe as it enters the muffler, and the small tube at the end, which presumably is close to the cat.

Last edited by ramblerdan on Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 5048
Location: Austin, TX
Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:32 am quote
old as dirt wrote:
watching too many Mad Max films?
There's only three - saw the first one about 5 times, second one about the same - third one was barely worth watching the first time. So call it 11 times?
Ossessionato
2009 MP3-500 aka Red Dog 2007 Vespa 250ie
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 2109
Location: Southern Oregon Coast
Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:27 am quote
In looking this over I first wondered why he chose that side for mounting, then realized it was probably to facilitate removal of the wheel without having to remove the tank. Given the risk associated with fuel spillage on a hot exhaust system I'd have opted for the other side. Hell I don't change my own tires anyway so paying for an extra 10-15 minutes labor wouldn't be a huge factor. Maybe he had another reason? It would be nice to hear back from him. (Presuming he's still with us...)

LL75
Molto Verboso
NC700XD
Joined: 28 Dec 2009
Posts: 1372
Location: Richmond, VA
Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:35 am quote
larrylarry75 wrote:
In looking this over I first wondered why he chose that side for mounting, then realized it was probably to facilitate removal of the wheel without having to remove the tank. Given the risk associated with fuel spillage on a hot exhaust system I'd have opted for the other side. Hell I don't change my own tires anyway so paying for an extra 10-15 minutes labor wouldn't be a huge factor. Maybe he had another reason? It would be nice to hear back from him. (Presuming he's still with us...)

LL75
Not sure about that one. The wheel is removed from the exhaust side (exhaust gets removed). I might have misunderstood.

Anyone hear of any black holes in the Thunderdome recently?
Addicted
'10 Aprilia Mana GT
Joined: 16 Aug 2010
Posts: 720
Location: Central New Jersey
Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:49 am quote
Looks like a decent solution in general. However, my 500's wheel comes off on the muffler side so wouldn't it make more sense having the tank on the airbox side (assumes access to airbox screws is doable)? With the K&N that's not an issue. That would also balance the weight a little better.
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 (sold) MP3 500 (current)
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 19111
Location: welaka, florida
Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:06 am quote
raybjur wrote:
Looks like a decent solution in general. However, my 500's wheel comes off on the muffler side so wouldn't it make more sense having the tank on the airbox side (assumes access to airbox screws is doable)? With the K&N that's not an issue. That would also balance the weight a little better.
+1

Yeah I don't think the proximity to the muffler is a big deal but for tire replacements and balance I like the other side. Must be a reason plbuckland chose the right side.

That said I think this is cool modification and can't wait to see more pics and get a report on how it worked on the road.
Ossessionato
2009 MP3-500 aka Red Dog 2007 Vespa 250ie
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 2109
Location: Southern Oregon Coast
Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:33 am quote
See...? Told ya I don't change my tires. Nice thing about that is I don't have to know which side they come off. Very handy to know if you're a tire person and I'll keep it in mind for that time when I find myself kibitzing over someone's shoulder.

So now it makes even less sense as to why he chose that side, maybe it has something to do with easier access to the fuel line? I believe I'll go have breakfast and leave this topic to those with more knowledge, maybe you guys can figure this out.

LL75
Molto Verboso
NC700XD
Joined: 28 Dec 2009
Posts: 1372
Location: Richmond, VA
Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:44 am quote
The roll-over valve is on the exhaust side (and if memory serves, drains around the exhaust oddly enough). Several systems have tapped into the stock fuel system through the hose that goes from the rollover to the fuel tank. Another reason would probably be the stock air box clearance.
Molto Verboso
Piaggio BV 350
Joined: 01 Aug 2010
Posts: 1014
Location: Vienna, VA USA
Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:54 am quote
jimc wrote:
What is the perceived problem of fuel spillage on the exhaust? Puzzled.
My biggest problem has been a spilled Pepsi on that muffler.

During last winter's layup I had the thing dismounted so I tried to clean the petrified soda pop off.

Finally used oven cleaner. Preheat? Used the oven. Set it to 400F, and ran a couple of errands. Got home, put on the oven mitts, moved it to the stainless steel sink, and attacked it with the oven cleaner.

Those stock mufflers really hold their heat.
Molto Verboso
Burgman 650 (May, 2012) MP3 500 (11/2009 - 5.2012)
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1384
Location: Massachusetts- Boston South Shore
Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:14 am quote
My muffler has bits & pieces of a Dowco cover stuck to the underside.. There's a heat shield on the cover, but not if you put it on sideways.. (don't ask !!)
Enthusiast
Gilera Fuoco
Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Posts: 94
Location: Woy Woy NSW
Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:25 pm quote
Hi. I picked the right side because I can mount it there permanently. It does not interfere with the air filter and the wheel can still be removed without removing the tank. As mentioned my only concern was spillage of fuel onto the muffler (which a scary thought but should only cause instant vaporisation). But I am intending to mount a fuel drain over the filler which should take any spillageaway from the muffler. Currently I am just being careful filling it. There are no adverse effects from the extra weight on that side of the bike - it is a negligible amount. The system works really well, you just open the ball valve (tap) and dump it into the main tank. If I was doing it again I would make the tank larger. I just used a 100mm square tube, but it could have been made larger than that at the back, but would mean fabricating the whole tank as opposed to just capping the ends of a square tube. BTW heat radiating off the muffler is not enough to be any problem.
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Fuoco 500ie with Active Suspension
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 662
Location: Sydney, Australia
Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:17 am quote
And the thought of being instantly vaporised doesn't concern you?

BTW, nice job.

Gonzo
Enthusiast
Gilera Fuoco
Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Posts: 94
Location: Woy Woy NSW
Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:50 am quote
Just to prove a point I let some spill onto the hot muffler - instant vaporisation. But, if there was any ignition source there would be a fireball. We used to fill up stationery engines when I was a farmer and it is not unusual to spill fuel onto a hot exhaust.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 5048
Location: Austin, TX
Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:11 am quote
plbuckland wrote:
Just to prove a point I let some spill onto the hot muffler - instant vaporisation. But, if there was any ignition source there would be a fireball. We used to fill up stationery engines when I was a farmer and it is not unusual to spill fuel onto a hot exhaust.
It's true - just don't light up while doing it.
Moderaptor
2xGP800, Fuoco, X9 500 Evo, The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug), 'Olive' (GT200) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:23 am quote
Just so.
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. . 2008 Blue MP3 400. . di Peluria Orso .... 1993 Kawasaki Vulcan 500 ....... 2013 Honda NC700XD
Joined: 02 Jun 2008
Posts: 5944
Location: Milledgeville, GA
Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:48 pm quote
BubbaJon wrote:
plbuckland wrote:
Just to prove a point I let some spill onto the hot muffler - instant vaporisation. But, if there was any ignition source there would be a fireball. We used to fill up stationery engines when I was a farmer and it is not unusual to spill fuel onto a hot exhaust.
It's true - just don't light up while doing it.
Don't let OAD fill it up.
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Reprehensible Misinformant
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 7302
Location: Winchester, California
Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:07 pm quote
plbuckland wrote:
Just to prove a point I let some spill onto the hot muffler - instant vaporisation. But, if there was any ignition source there would be a fireball. We used to fill up stationery engines when I was a farmer and it is not unusual to spill fuel onto a hot exhaust.
A leathery and knowledgable old mechanic proved this point to me when I worked at a tire and auto center after school.

The subject of flammability of fuel came up, and he took his lit cigarette and extinguished it in some gasoline. Thats all that happened....his cigarette got snuffed in the same way it would if you dropped it into water.

Proved to me that you need an open spark or flame to ignite it.
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MP3 500
Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 4530
Location: Ashburn, Va
Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:45 pm quote
gogogordy wrote:
Proved to me that you need an open spark or flame to ignite it.
Wonder how RC plane motors ignite the fuel with a glow plug?
Maybe they are to just heat the cylinder and they fire from compression?
Anyone know?
Searched Google and can't find the answer.

Edit:
Found the answer,
Glow fuel generally consists of methanol with varying degrees of nitromethane content as an oxidizer for greater power, generally between 5% and 30% of the total blend. These volatiles are suspended in a base oil of castor oil, synthetic oil or a blend of both for lubrication and heat control, again, in varying degrees of overall content. The lubrication system is a "total loss" type, meaning that the oil is expelled from the exhaust after circulating through the engine. The fuel ignites when it comes in contact with the heating element of the glow plug. Between strokes of the engine, the wire remains hot, continuing to glow partly due to thermal inertia, but largely due to the catalytic combustion reaction of methanol remaining on the platinum filament. This keeps the filament hot, allowing it to ignite the next charge, thus sustaining the power cycle.

Some aircraft engines are designed to run on fuel with no nitromethane content whatsoever. Glow fuel of this type is referred to as "FAI fuel" after the aeronautical governing body of the same name.

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glow_plug_(model_engine)
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Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 17934
Location: Kingston, Tennessee, Tn
Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:51 pm quote
gogogordy wrote:
plbuckland wrote:
Just to prove a point I let some spill onto the hot muffler - instant vaporisation. But, if there was any ignition source there would be a fireball. We used to fill up stationery engines when I was a farmer and it is not unusual to spill fuel onto a hot exhaust.
A leathery and knowledgable old mechanic proved this point to me when I worked at a tire and auto center after school.

The subject of flammability of fuel came up, and he took his lit cigarette and extinguished it in some gasoline. Thats all that happened....his cigarette got snuffed in the same way it would if you dropped it into water.

Proved to me that you need an open spark or flame to ignite it.
its not the fuel its the vapors that you need to worry about.
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