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@alexb avatar
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UTC quote
Does the MP3-500 have a Knock Sensor, to enable it to use lower octane gas, such as 87? Anyone tried 87 for an extended basis?

Owners manual says to use 91 Octane, yet I'm presuming that it's like many modern vehicals which have the ability to sense pre-detonition (from use of lower octane gas), and adjust (degrade) the timing accordingly.

All things considered, I presume that there is a Negligible difference in Horsepower, between 87 and 91 octane... In which case, I'd rather pinch pennies and go with the cheaper/lower one.
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UTC quote
No knock sensor, use 91.
It costs like 50 cents more if your tank is empty, can't afford that? You shouldn't have bought something as expensive as the MP3
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UTC quote
Just remember that you have a performance motor with a relatively high 10.5:1 compression ratio. Much more susceptible to engine knock or pre-ignition, either which could destroy your motor.


.
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Scarabeo 500GT(hers), `07 250 MP3, `09 400 MP3
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UTC quote
I've run 87 in my 250 with no noticeable issues. But these guys put the fear of "what if" in me so now I run 89 or 91 in my MP3s. Like you say ping and high compression no longer add up like in the past with the EFI units being able to alter timing to whatever you put in your rig. Like said, the difference in cost of gas is really not that much so why take a chance?

Also the altitude you ride at can make a difference too. I live @ 3,500'. The higher your ambient altitude, the lower octane your motor needs because the air get's thinner. When you get around 8K ', you can't even buy 91 octane if you want to. It's overkill.
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UTC quote
What they said. Use the highest octane you can find...peace of mind while you are carving is priceless.
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UTC quote
norCal Randy wrote:
I've run 87 in my 250 with no noticeable issues. But these guys put the fear of "what if" in me so now I run 89 or 91 in my MP3s. Like you say ping and high compression no longer add up like in the past with the EFI units being able to alter timing to whatever you put in your rig. Like said, the difference in cost of gas is really not that much so why take a chance?
Sure would like to know how it knows when to compensate with no knock sensor
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UTC quote
I use 93.. on the theory that that the tank is so small... and the most I usually buy is about 2.5 gallons.. so live a little..
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UTC quote
norCal Randy wrote:
Like you say ping and high compression no longer add up like in the past with the EFI units being able to alter timing to whatever you put in your rig.
Not in MP3's. They can compenstae for pretty much everything except low-out-of-spec gas. No knock sensor...
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UTC quote
All the European scooters and cars require premium. I use 93 too...
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UTC quote
Yeah, I'm using 91/93 every time, also. Which one is on hand varied from brand to brand and a bit from town to town, but at long as it meets the minimum I'll take it.
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UTC quote
and the higher octane gives you better gas mileage.
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UTC quote
That is actually a myth Funky. Octane rating is a measure of the effectiveness of gasoline to resist engine knock. That is why you need to use the appropriate octane for your vehicle.
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UTC quote
FunkyMonkey wrote:
and the higher octane gives you better gas mileage.
You should have worded it, The Correct Octane Rating Gives You The Best Mileage, Higher or Lower octane. in Theory, will give you less MPG.
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Also depends a bit on what you're doing. For instance, when I'm towing my trailer with my E150, premium is worth it, because it gives the engine just a little extra "oomph" per measure of fuel burned. So the engine doesn't have to work quite as hard to generate the same power level, which increases my mileage more than enough to offset the small difference in cost. Without the trailer though, of course it runs just fine and has plenty of power on the regular 85-87 octane it is labeled for, and doesn't get any better mileage per gallon if fed premium.
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UTC quote
Here is a consumer's guide put out by the MN dept of commerce. http://mn.gov/commerce/weights-and-measures/images/OctaneFacts.pdf
Quote:
Octane Myths
High octane gasoline improves mileage.
In general, if your car is designed to run on 87 octane gasoline, high octane gasoline will not improve
mileage. If switching to high octane gasoline does improve mileage, you might find that your engine, or its
control systems, need repair.
High octane gasoline gives quicker starting.
No, it doesn't.
High octane gasoline increases power.
If your car is designed to run on 87 octane gasoline, you shouldn't notice any more power on high octane
gasoline. Again, if it does make a noticeable difference, your engine, or the engine's electronic control
systems, may need repair.
High octane gasoline has been refined more - it is just a better product.
Additional refining steps are used to increase the octane; however, these additional steps do not necessarily
make the gasoline a "better" product for all engines. They just yield a different blend of hydrocarbons that
burn more slowly. The additional steps also increase the price.
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UTC quote
Higher octane should definitely mean you get more power and better mileage because there's more octane (a parafin series hydrocarbon with eight carbon atoms) available to burn.

At least, it would if the "octane rating" was a measure of the amount of octane present. But as has been pointed out, it's not - it's a (IMHO very) misleading "proxy" measurement having little to do with energy content and instead dealing with how fast a liquid burns compared to 100% octane.

While the octane rating is not indicative of the amount of enery available, in theory it does affect the available power - but only if you understand the technical use of the term "power." The same amount of available energy burning faster or slower results in more or less power for the fraction of a second the fuel is combusting, but because the net result is energy provided divided by the length of time it takes for the engine to complete its entire combustion cycle, that's just a technicality; practically, octane does not itself affect transmitted power at all. You can have a fuel with a lot of alcohol with a very high octane rating, but it has very little energy and provides very little power (because alcohol has fewer carbon atoms per mole available to burn).

FWIW, I alternate between octane grades and carry 87 in my emergency can. I realize that's heresy to say, but I've had no problems and I suspect that the "nothing less than 93" is a bit of hyperbole. Your mileage may, um, vary.
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UTC quote
FunkyMonkey wrote:
and the higher octane gives you better gas mileage.
Mmmm. I'd give that another think.
The rating is for compression and anti-knock. Not better mileage.
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UTC quote
I'm not educated in such matters so if higher octane doesn't increase power/performance someone needs to explain why my lap times were noticeably reduced when I ran 93 in my 2 cycle kart engines instead of 87.
Just saying...
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
like the others said. I always use the highest octane back when I had my 250 and now with my 500. 91 keeps the MP3s running well and happy.
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UTC quote
raybjur wrote:
I'm not educated in such matters so if higher octane doesn't increase power/performance someone needs to explain why my lap times were noticeably reduced when I ran 93 in my 2 cycle kart engines instead of 87.
Just saying...
Because it was designed to run on 93 octane not 87

You put 93 in a motor that is designed for 87, you are going to get no benefit
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UTC quote
Sticky - It's probably because my engine needs cleaning, as per the bit you quoted. Granted, my E150 is a 2000 model, which means it's now 13 years old, and it's major use is hard work driving on what are usually fairly long trips. Either way, the higher octane helps it out with the trailer.
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UTC quote
Sidecutter wrote:
Sticky - It's probably because my engine needs cleaning, as per the bit you quoted. Granted, my E150 is a 2000 model, which means it's now 13 years old, and it's major use is hard work driving on what are usually fairly long trips. Either way, the higher octane helps it out with the trailer.
Now, if you run an 87 octane motor on 91 or 93 octane long enough, it will cause excess carbon to build up in the combustion cylinder, and then at some point you will have to run high octane fuel or it will ping.

As far as I remember the 2000 Ford V8's and the V10 were not high octane motors, unless it's a Lighting. So any boost in power is in your mind or you're buying cheap gas and it's not really the rating on the pump
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UTC quote
raybjur wrote:
I'm not educated in such matters so if higher octane doesn't increase power/performance someone needs to explain why my lap times were noticeably reduced when I ran 93 in my 2 cycle kart engines instead of 87.
Just saying...
87 burns faster so when the piston is compressing the gasses the spark firesand you can burn the vapors faster than when needed, thus you actually don't get a full stoke of power at the moment you need it. When the octane is bumped to 97 the burn is slower and when the vapors burn closer to TDC forcing the piston down you are getting more forces at the moment closest to TDC thus increasing your HP output. This is way more critical when running engines at higher speeds/RPM's. because the engine runs hotter and you can actually have the vapors fire pre maturely before the spark ignites the vapors.
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UTC quote
Sticky - if that is a myth, then it came from a vespa dealer mechanic who also owns a MP3 500.

I get better gas mileage when I have high octane in there and not 89 octane.

I guess we leave it up with the owner ... save a little, lose a little.
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UTC quote
FunkyMonkey wrote:
Sticky - if that is a myth, then it came from a vespa dealer mechanic who also owns a MP3 500.

I get better gas mileage when I have high octane in there and not 89 octane.

I guess we leave it up with the owner ... save a little, lose a little.
You didn't read his post correctly. It was refering to higher octane *than recommended*.

In the US that's 91 minimum at sea level (higher octane will do no damage other than to your wallet).

89 is by definition too low, unless at higher altitudes.
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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UTC quote
FunkyMonkey wrote:
Sticky - if that is a myth, then it came from a vespa dealer mechanic who also owns a MP3 500.

I get better gas mileage when I have high octane in there and not 89 octane.

I guess we leave it up with the owner ... save a little, lose a little.
the reason it gives you better MPG is the lower octane is burning faster than needed and your not getting the full benefit of the compression cycle of the engine, thus your using more fuel to get the same speed. When using the proper octane the engine is more efficient and you don't have to use more throttle to maintain speed.
⬆️    About 1 year elapsed    ⬇️
@anglesea avatar
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2009 Piaggio MP3 500
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@anglesea avatar
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UTC quote
does using higher than 91 octane have any downside....
other than cost? they sell either 89 or 93 in my area. alternatively can you mix 2 different octanes and average them to 91?
thanks
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UTC quote
Re: does using higher than 91 octane have any downside....
anglesea wrote:
other than cost? they sell either 89 or 93 in my area. alternatively can you mix 2 different octanes and average them to 91?
thanks
you'll be fine using 93.
@anglesea avatar
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@anglesea avatar
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UTC quote
Re: does using higher than 91 octane have any downside....
old as dirt wrote:
anglesea wrote:
other than cost? they sell either 89 or 93 in my area. alternatively can you mix 2 different octanes and average them to 91?
thanks
you'll be fine using 93.
thanks OAD.
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UTC quote
I used 87 octane in my X9, which has the same engine, for the first 3 years and I had to have the exhaust valves replaced. They were burnt up and not holding pressure. That was $1200 to fix. I now use only 91.
UTC

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UTC quote
For me, I try to avoid any fuel that has ethanol in it.

Where I live - this means buying 91 Shell VPower fuel. Another company has a 93 octane fuel, but it has ethanol - so I avoid it.
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
frogman_94 wrote:
I used 87 octane in my X9, which has the same engine, for the first 3 years and I had to have the exhaust valves replaced. They were burnt up and not holding pressure. That was $1200 to fix. I now use only 91.
Just remember:
Lower octane for faster burn in lower compression motors.
Higher octane for slower burn in higher compression motors.
The Masters motors are high compression. Nerd emoticon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_ratio
⬆️    About 4 years elapsed    ⬇️
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2016 MP3 500
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UTC quote
FunkyMonkey wrote:
and the higher octane gives you better gas mileage.
Not true! Higher octane when not needed (i.e. when engine does NOT knock at lower octane) only pollutes more.

I had a Slingshot, that called for 93 octane. I switched to 87, and MPG was NO different. It actually seemed to idle more smoothly/quieter on lower octane. Only during HARD acceleration (which I never did anyways) did I notice very slight pinging.
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@madison_sully avatar
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UTC quote
Aufgeblassen wrote:
FunkyMonkey wrote:
and the higher octane gives you better gas mileage.
Not true! Higher octane when not needed (i.e. when engine does NOT knock at lower octane) only pollutes more.

I had a Slingshot, that called for 93 octane. I switched to 87, and MPG was NO different. It actually seemed to idle more smoothly/quieter on lower octane. Only during HARD acceleration (which I never did anyways) did I notice very slight pinging.
Not sure how higher octane will pollute more.
And, there is a difference between noticing ping, and having ping.
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UTC quote
Madison Sully wrote:
And, there is a difference between noticing ping, and having ping.
And what might that difference be?

If you notice pinging, you have it. If you don't notice it at all, you don't have it, by the definition of pinging is (i.e. unusual noticeable noise).
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UTC quote
Aufgeblassen wrote:
Madison Sully wrote:
And, there is a difference between noticing ping, and having ping.
And what might that difference be?

If you notice pinging, you have it.
True.
Quote:
If you don't notice it at all, you don't have it, by the definition of pinging is (i.e. unusual noticeable noise).
False.

The sound of pre-ignition (pinging) is certainly noticeable when it's very bad (and inevitably damage has already been done) - but at early onset is completely drowned by other engine noises, and on a bike with wind noise etc also a factor (if going more than say 45mph) it is completely UN-noticeable.
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UTC quote
There is a place near me that has 100 octane. Any benefit or waste (other than money) in running that?
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UTC quote
I'm surprised that all the above comments have not mentioned the one thing that I always thought was the main difference between the octane grades. Hi octane contains additives such as hydrofluoric acid to help keep things cleaner.

It's just something I heard somewhere and it stuck with me, it could be a lot of BS for all I know !!
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2009 MP3/250, 2012 GTS Super 300ie
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@klaborde avatar
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UTC quote
I run the highest I can find...

Preferably Non-Ethanol 93 or minimum 90, as it is getting easier to find these days. I did find 100 once, it sure made the MPG go up on the MP3 /500 Sport.

I have them all marked on my Garmin GPS, so when I ride my normal Georgia, North Carolina, Florida, Alabama routes I visit them.

I also have the iphone App called "Pure Gas", it will uses your location and provide you a list of all the Non-Ethanol Gas Stations near you, and like to the Maps App to guide you there. I can find a lot of Non-Ethanol 87, but don't use it.

It's very rare that I used Ethanol Gas these days.

Keith,
Marietta, GA
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mp3 400
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Location: san diego ca
 
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mp3 400
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UTC quote
It's. amazing that you in the southeast USA can get that variety of gas octane available. You can choose depending on what you need.

Here in San Diego, I never studied gas quality as well as you, but everyone knows that all our gas comes from one pipeline out of the refineries up north. So our choice is very limited, and we take whatever is there for us at the stations....they are all the same !!
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