3 weeks old & 276 miles & a rod is knocking
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Member
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Location: Naples Fla
Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:21 am quote
I just got in to scooters and bought what I thought was the best. I have 276 miles on my 2010 Vespa 300 GTS and went into the dealer for a windshield. He informed me that my engine has a rod knock. I build ultralight engines for a living and know this is real bad news. I feel with such low mileage the entire engine should be replaced. Any thoughts ????
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Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:47 pm quote
(Moved to General Discussion as this isn't a Wiki Article discussion)

Is it still in warranty? Then it should be covered - if the dealer's opinion is correct.
Member
300 gts
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Location: Naples Fla
Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:48 pm quote
its brand new from the dealer, brand new. I bought it 3 weeks ago and rode it 50 miles hole. 168 miles around home and 50 miles bck for a windshield. Being this new I feel a rebuilt engine is unfair. Metal went through this engine and all of the bearings. Fixing the cause will not cure all the damage occured.
The Beer Guy
2010 GTS 300 Super
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Location: Central Virginia
Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:17 pm quote
A new engine doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Have you told them this is what you expect?
Member
300 gts
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Posts: 18
Location: Naples Fla
Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:44 pm quote
At first he talked about how the bigger engines never gave any troubles. ( this lead me to think they do not have much experance working on them ) and how it sounds like a rod knock and they would fix it. 3 weeks and over $7000 out the door and I'm going to own a scooter that was just brought back from the dead . OUCH What can I do ?????
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:37 pm quote
Rick Davis wrote:
At first he talked about how the bigger engines never gave any troubles. ( this lead me to think they do not have much experance working on them ) and how it sounds like a rod knock and they would fix it. 3 weeks and over $7000 out the door and I'm going to own a scooter that was just brought back from the dead . OUCH What can I do ?????
call piaggio in new york and bitch, bitch ,bitch
Enthusiast
Joined: 28 Jun 2011
Posts: 78
Location: East Tennessee
Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:48 pm quote
I have been working on engines for 35 years. A knocking rod is pretty rare and pretty loud. It gets a LOT louder with RPM. If you scooter didn't sound like a tommy gun I would doubt it's rod knock.

Need to adjust the valve rockers? Yeah I'd buy that. No big deal there, its really just an adjustment.

If you (or the dealer) determine it is indeed rod knock, demand another scooter. You shouldn't have to screw around with anything less.

Joe
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Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:54 pm quote
Is it an experienced Piaggio dealer? It may just be the very normal roller noise, or some other common cause.

Can you hear it yourself?
Member
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Location: Naples Fla
Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:54 pm quote
Knowing engines it sounded like noisy lifters to me. When it was cold it was much louder, after 1 mile it was much quieter. It seemed ok. I changed the oil and the screen had in it 1/2 thimble of trash. Plastic, metal .aluminum etc. I feel they may screw it up more than help it ??
Member
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Location: Naples Fla
Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:59 pm quote
It seemed normal to me . I built over 400 ultralight Rotax engines in the last 4 years . It seemed a little louder than the one they started for me but not that much. AGAIN it is much worse when cold. Keep in mind cold here is 75 degs. Then it seems to go away. What would that be. Lifters ???
Moderaptor
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Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:59 pm quote
Rick Davis wrote:
Knowing engines it sounded like noisy lifters to me. When it was cold it was much louder, after 1 mile it was much quieter. It seemed ok. I changed the oil and the screen had in it 1/2 thimble of trash. Plastic, metal .aluminum etc. I feel they may screw it up more than help it ??
That sounds a lot of trash. A real lot. Normally there's nothing at all.

So he may be right, and a bearing has gone south - not unheard of (but very rare) in new engines. Any plastic in there is especially worrying - could be oil pump gear bits.
Member
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Location: Naples Fla
Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm quote
Ok lets say its a bearing or oil pump and crap went through the entire engine at 276 miles. They fix the oil pump or replace the failed bearing . The bearings , pistons, cylinders were all run with debre going them. What should I demand replaced?? I know I would send a replacement engine and feel ashamed of the first one.
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Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:14 pm quote
old as dirt wrote:
call piaggio in new york and bitch, bitch ,bitch
Who? Please share the number that's answered and a contact that will have an actual conversation?

Piaggio has demonstrated time and time again, if you have a shit dealer it's your problem.

I fell in love with a whore. Fast, a great romp, good looking, but she answers to no one.

The trouble is, there's no fun without her.

Resident Grump
BBS01 KHS Manhattan Smoothie
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Location: Lower Lumpa, MN
Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:18 pm quote
Rick Davis wrote:
Ok lets say its a bearing or oil pump and crap went through the entire engine at 276 miles. They fix the oil pump or replace the failed bearing . The bearings , pistons, cylinders were all run with debre going them. What should I demand replaced?? I know I would send a replacement engine and feel ashamed of the first one.
Insist on a new scooter. What are your states lemon laws. You may have a reasonable path. I did have a problem with a dealer being willing to have a reasonable conversation with Piaggio. Good luck hang in and you'll get it done right!
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Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:20 pm quote
The problem is that Piaggio will never, ever, give out a whole replacement engine. If needed, they'll supply under warranty *all the parts* - but then it's got to be built...

If there's concern - strip the bugger down and find out the cause of the noise/trash - and if that's a complete new engine (delivered in bits mark you) that's job done.

I know it's a very personal concern for you - but better found out now than barrelling down the road at 80mph and having a hard seize.

My suspicion iis that it's just one component that's come adrift a bit - and the oil filtration will have stopped any of those bits getting into sensitive areas. Get it fixed - if you sincerely feel there's a problem.
Member
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Location: Naples Fla
Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:34 pm quote
Should I go there Monday and take it home . ??? Run it and see what happens . The dealer already told me if I take it it will mess up the wearranty . I don't mind the expense I just want the best. Can I trust the dealer mechanic's??? I road race at Dayton on a TZ 250 in 1991 and I know about seizure's. It sucks $7000 an problems alredy.
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Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:40 pm quote
I'd actually suggest (as it's so new) that their potential problems and yours would be much diminished if *they* contacted Piaggio and got them to agree to a complete replacement bike. There' not much point in you contacting Piaggio unless you want a long uphill battle and more delays than you'd believe.

Your contract is with your dealer. Theirs is with Piaggio.

However, I'm aware that in some places the local 'Lemon Laws' may make this trickier than it might seem at first sight.
Member
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Posts: 18
Location: Naples Fla
Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:45 pm quote
I want to thank everyone for the help. I looked up Florida lemon laws and they do not apply to scooters or motorcycles. These seem like simple engines the more I look into it so I feel I may have to take what I get and deal with it down the road. We will see what Vespa is really made of. So much for buying the best !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Molto Verboso
2009 GTS 250ie "Jigokuchou"
Joined: 07 Aug 2011
Posts: 1034
Location: Minneapolis MN
Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:03 pm quote
There is no bleeping way I would accept that situation. Warranty is warranty, and if a dealer wishes to maintain their reputation, they'll make it right. Whether the resolution is a new engine or whether it's a new bike is their decision, but I cannot imagine a responsible dealer letting a customer walk out with any engine noise at all coming from a bike with all of 276 miles on the odo.
Resident Grump
BBS01 KHS Manhattan Smoothie
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Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:12 pm quote
jimc
I've only lived in 6 states, and every one was different. I find your advise "idealer centric", life is different here. 50 states are often like 50 countries. Until you've walked in another dozen or so shoes...

I prefer to take the time to find out what my options are. Unfortunately there are any number of riders punked by failed dealers. Sending your dishwasher nephew to Vespa training usually doesn't work, for long.

So, while you are right about how it should work, "nuttintall be so". Sometimes it reminds me of business in the caribbean. Don't Stop the Carnival

lemon law outline by state
Hooked
Vespa Marietta
Joined: 19 Oct 2010
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Location: Marietta, Ga.
Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:21 pm quote
It's kind of a bummer, but they'll make it right. That's why they come with warranties. Don't worry.
Resident Grump
BBS01 KHS Manhattan Smoothie
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 15124
Location: Lower Lumpa, MN
Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:50 pm quote
I apologize my negativity, I heart my Vespa and have invested in learning to be as astute about service as several here. You've read my last dealer bitch/attitude.
Reread my posts and well,

Quick QFT
Member
300 gts
Joined: 28 Jan 2012
Posts: 18
Location: Naples Fla
Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:57 pm quote
I feel they will . I'm still in shock . If not I feel down the road I will make it even better by myself . I own a 350 Ford pick up and my Vespa. I'm 54 and plan on these 2 vehicles being the last I purchase . Sooner or later I would have had to rebuild it BUT 3 weeks COME ON THAT HURTS. We will see and I will keep you all posted . This will be a good test for all.
Moderaptor
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Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:00 pm quote
I get it Tom, no worries.

But not just here in the EU (where there is no 'lemon law' as such, it can get tough) - that warranty is king. Negotiate with the dealer - if they want their reputation to soar they'll deal with it - even if it takes a year getting hold of Piaggio engine 'bits'. Alice's (Huskyteer's) GP800 took over a year to get a failed head gasket sorted. But sorted it was. That was in the last few months of a two-year warranty with over 30,000 miles on the odo mark you.

Three weeks and less than 300 miles should get a new scoot IMHO - but chat friendly-like to the dealer first - they're in between a rock (Piaggio) and a hard place (understandably disappointed customer).
Molto Verboso
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 1662
Location: Santa Margarita,Ca.
Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:22 pm quote
I'd not take the bike from the dealer until resolved and I'd want to inspect the components before reassembly to be assured of their condition. But yeah, a warranty gives the manufacturer the right to repair or replace. I'd want a replacement scooter. A new engine comes with title hassles. How did you pay?
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Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:26 pm quote
tomjasz wrote:
I fell in love with a whore. Fast, a great romp, good looking.

You as well?
Member
300 gts
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Posts: 18
Location: Naples Fla
Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:11 am quote
I paid with Visa Purchase date 1-4-12
Hooked
LX 150
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Location: COSTA MESA, CA
Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:30 am quote
jimc wrote:
The problem is that Piaggio will never, ever, give out a whole replacement engine. If needed, they'll supply under warranty *all the parts* - but then it's got to be built...

If there's concern - strip the bugger down and find out the cause of the noise/trash - and if that's a complete new engine (delivered in bits mark you) that's job done.

I know it's a very personal concern for you - but better found out now than barrelling down the road at 80mph and having a hard seize.

My suspicion iis that it's just one component that's come adrift a bit - and the oil filtration will have stopped any of those bits getting into sensitive areas. Get it fixed - if you sincerely feel there's a problem.
piaggio replaced my gt 250 after a few calls to piaggio corp and conversations with the national service manager and the threat of invoking the AZ lemon law for which it qualified.
Ossessionato
GTS250
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Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:46 am quote
Rick Davis wrote:
I paid with Visa Purchase date 1-4-12
Congrats, mate, you just pulled 4 aces.

Here is what you do: Tell them exactly how you want it fixed. I.e. everything in the engine replaced, new bike, whatever you think is reasonable. Be reasonable!

Put it in writing. Get them to sign it. Be detailed. Don't forget oil pump being replaced.

Don't argue, don't yell. Negotiate down if you feel like you can safely. Just state that this is what you want, and if they don't negotiate, you will take it the next steps.

If they refuse, you have two options:

Minor nuclear option:

Call the local TV station and talk to the consumer protection/advocacy group. Most areas have a least one in the area. they are very popular segments. Get them to help.

Buddy of mine bought a house that had cleared title, then hit with 30K tax lein. The Title Search and Insurance company was paid to do the search and insure the results.

They of course tried to weasel. A call from the local station got it paid out right quick.

Major Nuclear option:

Do this ONLY if you don't want the bike anymore, and don't plan on owning one, ever again.

Find out about a chargeback. Don't do one just yet, just find the final date to claim one. You also might find out about the bank card's own guarantee/warranty service. Sometimes they have augmented service

If they sold you a bike that has a bad engine in such a short time and won't fix the issue, the chargeback is a possible solution.

Just remember, you are pulling out a major nuclear bomb. You are going to give the bike back and get your money back in return.
Likely they will never let you set foot in their facilities again, and you may find yourself having a hard time buying another bike locally, depending on how tight the local dealerships are.

I state this option because as posted above, Piaggio has a reputation as leaving customers and dealers out in the cold. Sometimes there is no way to fix that, and you have the right to protect yourself from being taken.

Give them a chance to deal with it proper, but if they refuse, they have asked for it.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 LX 150
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 7060
Location: New Hampshire
Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:42 am quote
Rick Davis wrote:
Knowing engines it sounded like noisy lifters to me. When it was cold it was much louder, after 1 mile it was much quieter. It seemed ok. I changed the oil and the screen had in it 1/2 thimble of trash. Plastic, metal .aluminum etc. I feel they may screw it up more than help it ??
Did you change the oil before the dealer told you the engine was knocking? The first oil change is normally done at 625 miles. At that time, if in for service, the dealer would have seen the junk in the screen. But, if you changed the oil early, yourself, (truthfully, nothing wrong with that as long as you used the proper synthetic oil) Piaggio/dealer may use that as a loophole for getting out of repair, even though the dealer said you have a knock and they will fix it. They may claim that the proper amount or type of oil was not put in. Did you change the filter too?
Ossessionato
GTS250
Joined: 26 Jan 2009
Posts: 2809

Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:17 am quote
NightWing wrote:
Rick Davis wrote:
Knowing engines it sounded like noisy lifters to me. When it was cold it was much louder, after 1 mile it was much quieter. It seemed ok. I changed the oil and the screen had in it 1/2 thimble of trash. Plastic, metal .aluminum etc. I feel they may screw it up more than help it ??
Did you change the oil before the dealer told you the engine was knocking? The first oil change is normally done at 625 miles. At that time, if in for service, the dealer would have seen the junk in the screen. But, if you changed the oil early, yourself, (truthfully, nothing wrong with that as long as you used the proper synthetic oil) Piaggio/dealer may use that as a loophole for getting out of repair, even though the dealer said you have a knock and they will fix it. They may claim that the proper amount or type of oil was not put in. Did you change the filter too?
Don't forget, if you used spec oil and filter, the dealer/Piaggio cannot claim you damaged the bike by not letting them do the work.

Magnuson-Moss Act says unless the service is free, and it is not, they cannot void the warranty unless you used unspecified parts.

Oh, and don't offer that information.
Addicted
07 GTS, 07 Stella
Joined: 12 Oct 2009
Posts: 720
Location: New York
Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:25 am quote
I don't think you should be expected to be without use of your brand new purchase for more than a week while they try to sort it out. Seems lose lose.
Hooked
LX 150
Joined: 11 Nov 2011
Posts: 137
Location: COSTA MESA, CA
Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:46 am quote
Re: 3 weeks old & 276 miles & a rod is knocking
Rick Davis wrote:
I just got in to scooters and bought what I thought was the best. I have 276 miles on my 2010 Vespa 300 GTS and went into the dealer for a windshield. He informed me that my engine has a rod knock. I build ultralight engines for a living and know this is real bad news. I feel with such low mileage the entire engine should be replaced. Any thoughts ????
florida lemon law:

http://www.dmvflorida.org/florida-lemon-laws.shtml
Ossessionato
GTS250
Joined: 26 Jan 2009
Posts: 2809

Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:58 am quote
Re: 3 weeks old & 276 miles & a rod is knocking
mr.offers wrote:
Rick Davis wrote:
I just got in to scooters and bought what I thought was the best. I have 276 miles on my 2010 Vespa 300 GTS and went into the dealer for a windshield. He informed me that my engine has a rod knock. I build ultralight engines for a living and know this is real bad news. I feel with such low mileage the entire engine should be replaced. Any thoughts ????
florida lemon law:

http://www.dmvflorida.org/florida-lemon-laws.shtml
He knows. Motorcycles are not covered.
Hooked
LX 150
Joined: 11 Nov 2011
Posts: 137
Location: COSTA MESA, CA
Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:44 am quote
Re: 3 weeks old & 276 miles & a rod is knocking
rgconner wrote:
mr.offers wrote:
Rick Davis wrote:
I just got in to scooters and bought what I thought was the best. I have 276 miles on my 2010 Vespa 300 GTS and went into the dealer for a windshield. He informed me that my engine has a rod knock. I build ultralight engines for a living and know this is real bad news. I feel with such low mileage the entire engine should be replaced. Any thoughts ????
florida lemon law:

http://www.dmvflorida.org/florida-lemon-laws.shtml
He knows. Motorcycles are not covered.
too bad. AZ lemon law covered my GT250
Member
300 gts
Joined: 28 Jan 2012
Posts: 18
Location: Naples Fla
Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:06 pm quote
I justed wanted to let everyone know that Tropical Power Sports in Ft Myers Florida is my dealer. It is run by Lucy and her husband, THEY BEEN NOTHING BUT GREAT SO FAR. FIRST CLASS ALL THE WAY AROUND , I really have no reason to doubt ther mechanical skills or any other Vespa dealer. I just hope it's a small problem and they can fix it. They informed me thay will get right on it Monday and do there very best . That's all I can ask at this time. I will trust them and Vespa at this time and will make sure everyone in the VESPA world know's " just how it well it was handled."
Rick Davis
Member
300 gts
Joined: 28 Jan 2012
Posts: 18
Location: Naples Fla
Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:25 pm quote
As far as the oil change, being a licenced aircraft machinic I new better to not touch it without contacting them first. I talked with Lucy to make sure it was not a speical break in oil. I read on blog's and she confirmed it is not . It's the same syntactic oil recomended . I used the same brand she told me to use . Motul 5W40, It was doing the same cold knock before the oil change. The debre was not abnormal as far as I was concern. I did not cut the filter open as we do on aircraft. I may dig it up and see what's in it if the trash man didn't pick it up. I will keep my fingers crossed and hope for a simple fix.
Molto Verboso
2011 300GTV
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 1370
Location: Agate Fossil Beds, Nebraska
Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:10 pm quote
Vespa & Dealer should step up to the plate on this.
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