Thoughts on "traditional" scooter gear
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GTS 300 Super
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 40
Location: Sacramento
Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:11 am quote
So how many people ride around in retro-style half helmets, goggles, and regular clothes, gloves and boots? Or just generally less-than-motorcycle gear?

I understand the A-T-G-A-T-T (Toreador Pants???) mindset, so no need to get preachy. I currently have a full face Arai helmet, Alpinestar Drystar jacket (has decent armor), and riding boots from when I had my motorcycle. I just feel like it's all overkill on a scooter. Yes you can still have a high speed crash with the same results as on a motorcycle, but that's

I want to try a more comfortable jacket with less armor and a 3/4 helmet with full shield and regular leather or mesh gloves, especially on nicer days.
saggezza di scala
2009 'Burma Shave' Red GTS 250ie
Joined: 13 Mar 2010
Posts: 6889
Location: Israel
Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:58 am quote
Function vs fashion
Not trying to be preachy, but I thought this was worth sharing:

While I was waiting for the shop to finish prepping my new scooter, the shop owner that sold me my scoot noticed that I was looking at some of the brain buckets (half helmets) and asked me what riding safety gear I wanted to buy.

I told him that I wasn't sure if I wanted to go with the full MC list of safety gear or more the stuff that you described in your post here (half helmet, goggles, street clothes, etc.) that was more fashion than function.

When they rolled my newly prepped scoot out into the middle of the showroom floor, he had me sit on it to get the mirrors adjusted just right. While I was there sitting on the scoot up on the center stand, he said, "Okay... now fall off".

I looked at him... then at the shiny epoxy-panted concrete floor... and then back at him, before asking, "Why would I want to do that?"

He answered, "Because that will help you decide what kind of safety gear you want to get for yourself. Right now the scoot is sitting still and you can actually put your hands out to keep your face from hitting the floor... but it will still give you an idea of what it feels like to fall just onto a hard surface."

Now, Mama treppenwitz didn't raise any idiots, so I didn't give in to what was obviously a rhetorical thought experiment.

But sitting up there on a still scooter, looking at the clean hard floor only a few feet away, I knew it would hurt like hell to tumble off and feel my elbows, hips and shoulders hitting the floor. Even a low speed fall while putt-putting around town would be several orders of magnitude more painful... and a fall at highway speeds doesn't even bear discussing in this context.

So yeah, on rare occassions inside my neighborhood I've made a run to the corner store with just a helmet and gloves. And on two occassions, at the tail end of a low-speed, police escorted club ride I took off my jacket and did the last couple of kilmeters to the rally point in shirt sleeves.

But I have to say, that quiet thought experiment there on the shop floor when I picked up the scoot still comes back to me whenever I feel a little regret about not indulging in the classic Mod scooter wear of yesteryear.

/preaching

Afterthought: One of my many gurus (fashion and otherwise) here in MV had this to say which sums my current thinking quite nicely: Thanks Genie!
Gobshite Shiva
Kymco Downtown 300i the 'Dolphin Noise'
Joined: 16 Mar 2007
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Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:38 am quote
today it's warm out and i'm riding as 'undressed' as i ever get - i.e. leaving the armoured trews at home in favour of jeans. I never ride without boots, gloves, fully armoured jacket, and full-face helmet. And I don't ever go on the highway without full top-to-toe armour.

I'd love to look more stylish on the scooter but can't bring myself to ditch the safety gear. I love the look of mod gear (parka, half helmet, etc.), but I'll leave that to the true mods - it's a great style, but it's not mine.

I have tried the shorts 'n t-shirt route - last time I was in Greece, it was about 29C and I was steaming inside my jacket and kevlar combats. After a short ride, I decided, hot or not, that I preferred the full gear - the sight of the pavement whizzing along beneath my bare legs reminded me of a belt sander, and I couldn't stop thinking about what it would do to my skin if I came off I also dislike the feeling of my skin baking in the sun - so really, it was a no-brainer to put the trews and jacket back on.

I've got a very nice Tucano Urbano mesh jacket for hot summer days. It's not appropriate for highway riding, but for pootling around town it's ideal - nice looking, very cool to wear, and easy to wash. Personally, I don't feel safe in anything less than a full face helmet - a modular is a great compromise as you can open it up for ventilation when you're stopped at a traffic light.
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X10 350
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Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:54 am quote
Re: Thoughts on "traditional" scooter gear
mindspin wrote:
....I want to try a more comfortable jacket with less armor .....
If it's mainly about comfort, you CAN get some armour which is softer in feel, and less obtrusive to wear. I don't know what the armour is like in a Drystar (I've only looked them on line- they look good, but I've not tried one on), but for example I know that the more modern armour in other bike gear is a lot less obtursive to wear than my old Belstaff textile jacket from 7 or 8 years back.

Just a thought....maybe you can be armoured up and still feel more comfortable/cooler (?in both senses of the word?) than at present.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
1975 Vespa GTR 125, 1976 Vespa V90 (Resto), 2001 Vespa ET4 125 (Sold), 2009 Vespa GTS300 Super
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Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:36 am quote
Re: Thoughts on "traditional" scooter gear
I'm curious about your thinking Mindspin...
mindspin wrote:
So how many people ride around in retro-style half helmets, goggles, and regular clothes, gloves and boots? Or just generally less-than-motorcycle gear?
Well, the short answer is plenty of riders, for their own reasons, whether or not they've really thought about the considerations and risks. Treppenwitz and Genie have shared their considerations. Their choice - safety first. If you want to fit in with riders in less gear, you will with some, if you want to stick with 'heavier' gear, you'll fit in with others. There's no absolute answer to 'how many...', but I'm sure you knew that...

I don't think the answer is in groupthink - doing what everyone else does, but is about what you decide... experienced Mvers will just share their views to maybe steer you a little. The safety/riding gear topic crops up a lot, and the Right Gear thread that's running is a good read, such that some have revised their attitude to riding wear and made some changes.
mindspin wrote:
I want to try a more comfortable jacket with less armor and a 3/4 helmet with full shield and regular leather or mesh gloves, especially on nicer days.
So if the question is really I've decided I want to do this, so what do you recommend? then folk will pitch in and help you I'm sure. I can appreciate the thought about comfortable, lighter gear for summer weather, naturally...
What are you wearing for your summer riding?

The 'traditional' gear idea is a side road...because the answer is virtually no safety gear at all!
What did 'vintage' scooter riders wear back then?

Hope that helps somehow..

/gets up from psychologists chair
Ossessionato
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Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:16 am quote
It's funny. On my MC it's a full faced Arai helmet, gloves, armored pants, armored jacket and boots. The only exception is if I ride for work, I can't wear the armored pants. Well I suppose I could but not easily.

On the scooter its,the same drill except for the helmet which is 3/4 Nolan. I recognize the risk. Something about the scooter prevents me from conceding the need for a full faced helmet.
Grumpy Biker
1980 Vespa P200e (sold), 2002 Vespa ET4 (sold), 1949 Harley-Davidson FL
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Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:47 am quote
I always ride with boots and gloves. Jeans for every ride. I don't even own a pair of riding-specific pants (unless you count my rain gear). I wear my leather jacket when the temp is below 75F. Above that I don't typically wear a jacket. My helmet is a 3/4 Bell Custom 500 with a bubble face shield.

Do some investigation. Decide what level of risk you are willing to accept.

-Craig
Moderatus Rana
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Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:28 am quote
I pretty much use full gear on most rides and on my commute. I sometimes cheat a little and wear a finger-less glove on my left hand so I can skip songs on my mp3 player.

In my area I am more of the exception than the rule. Most PTW riders here wear little if any protective gear and I get some pretty funny looks sometimes. This is even more so as the weather gets hotter. I have been tempted on some of the really hot days to go with less but I ultimately put on the gear. My low pain threshold wins out.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:36 am quote
Re: Thoughts on "traditional" scooter gear
mindspin wrote:
So how many people ride around in retro-style half helmets, goggles, and regular clothes, gloves and boots? Or just generally less-than-motorcycle gear?

I understand the A-T-G-A-T-T (Toreador Pants???) mindset, so no need to get preachy. I currently have a full face Arai helmet, Alpinestar Drystar jacket (has decent armor), and riding boots from when I had my motorcycle. I just feel like it's all overkill on a scooter. Yes you can still have a high speed crash with the same results as on a motorcycle, but that's

I want to try a more comfortable jacket with less armor and a 3/4 helmet with full shield and regular leather or mesh gloves, especially on nicer days.
you can ride around in a speedo if you want to, It is your skin and if you chose to leave some of it on the road that is your choice in the case of a mishap.

If your looking for style points and cool factor wear what ever you think is appropriate.
Hooked
2018 XMAX
Joined: 10 Feb 2012
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Location: Philadelphia, USA
Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:55 am quote
I personally ride with 3/4 or FF helmet (NEW ARAI FF HELMET). Gloves with Carbon knuckles. Alpinestars jacket with elbow, shoulders, and back armor. Jeans. and most of the time regular boots. (buying riding boots soon)

Your choice what you wear! But helmet jacket gloves jeans would be my minimum.
Molto Verboso
GTS Vintage Red
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1028
Location: Scarsdale, NY
Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:17 am quote
To each his/her own on protection.

I have a 4 mile commute on back roads. I wear:

Shoe Quest FF Helmet, Boots, Vanson Comet competition weight leather jacket, Jeans and cheap $19 gloves. Just ordered:

http://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/alpinestars-scheme-kevlar-gloves

I have a pair of Kevlar Jeans for day/weekend trips. I have a Techniques Mesh Jacket that is rly ugly. Need to find a new mesh for the Summer. Any suggestion would be welcomed. Tired of looking like a Power Ranger in Hot weather...

G
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Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:52 am quote
3/4 helmet, jeans and gloves.

We really need a horse beating emoticon.
Petty Tyrant
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Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:56 am quote
My personal choices:
Jacket, always.
Boots, always.
Gloves, always.
Full-face helmet, always.

Armored pants, generally only when I'm going far or otherwise riding aggressively. I wear normal work pants when I commute to work.

Shorts, only when I'm riding the MP3 to the store.

Those are my choices. Everyone else gets to make their own.
Ossessionato
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Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:57 am quote
Gianni wrote:
To each his/her own on protection.

I have a 4 mile commute on back roads. I wear:

Shoe Quest FF Helmet, Boots, Vanson Comet competition weight leather jacket, Jeans and cheap $19 gloves. Just ordered:

http://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/alpinestars-scheme-kevlar-gloves

I have a pair of Kevlar Jeans for day/weekend trips. I have a Techniques Mesh Jacket that is rly ugly. Need to find a new mesh for the Summer. Any suggestion would be welcomed. Tired of looking like a Power Ranger in Hot weather...

G
Take a look at the Vanson VentMax 4 mesh jacket, with armor.
Hooked
2008 BV 250
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Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:00 am quote
My first helmet was a Bell 3/4 that I was also using for autocross. I liked the feeling and it never really gets cold in CA. My BMW K100RT had a huge windshield, so I wasn't worried about bugs or other debris. But sure enough, a rock was kicked out from under a truck tire on the freeway and hit me in the face. I didn't crash, but I did go buy a full face helmet the same week.
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No more Vespa
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Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:17 am quote
Re: Thoughts on "traditional" scooter gear
mindspin wrote:
So how many people ride around in retro-style half helmets, goggles, and regular clothes, gloves and boots? Or just generally less-than-motorcycle gear?
...

I want to try a more comfortable jacket with less armor and a 3/4 helmet with full shield and regular leather or mesh gloves, especially on nicer days.
You seem more interested in going part way, so I would definitely stop there.

3/4 helmets are safer and generally more comfortable than half helmets
and there are lots of comfortable armored jackets out there.

Don't let the ads fool you,
if you experience seasons, you'll need at least two riding jackets.
Enthusiast
Piaggio BV300
Joined: 14 Jan 2012
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Location: Austin, TX
Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:23 am quote
I'm new to scooting, so my first season gear was rather rag-tag but here goes:

Winter
Retro style 3/4 helmet with visor
Sunglasses
Motley Tube in balaclava configuration
neck gator
Scarf
Army Cold-Weather Field Jacket
Forgot the brand Cold Weather Gloves
Glove Liners (for those mornings below 40 degrees F)
Regular Jeans
Ariat Highland boots http://www.ariat.com/Casual/Women/Footwear/Boots/Highland.html

Least Ive ridden in is, unsafe, I know, but it was fun in the sun!:
Helmet
Sunglasses
Tank Top
Capris
Piper Sandals http://www.pipersandals.com/

For the summer I aim to get a mesh jacket (it's already ordered - Joe Rocket Cleo 2.0), some quater-boots, and hot-weather gloves. I imagine I will be continuing to wear Capris and eventually skorts.
Molto Verboso
GTS Vintage Red
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1028
Location: Scarsdale, NY
Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:26 am quote
Route 66 Lawdog wrote:
Gianni wrote:
To each his/her own on protection.

I have a 4 mile commute on back roads. I wear:

Shoe Quest FF Helmet, Boots, Vanson Comet competition weight leather jacket, Jeans and cheap $19 gloves. Just ordered:

http://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/alpinestars-scheme-kevlar-gloves

I have a pair of Kevlar Jeans for day/weekend trips. I have a Techniques Mesh Jacket that is rly ugly. Need to find a new mesh for the Summer. Any suggestion would be welcomed. Tired of looking like a Power Ranger in Hot weather...

G
Take a look at the Vanson VentMax 4 mesh jacket, with armor.
Thanks! Vanson makes high quality products!
Hooked
2018 XMAX
Joined: 10 Feb 2012
Posts: 420
Location: Philadelphia, USA
Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:54 am quote
i like the alpinestars air collection too. Good thing is you have multiple jackets of the same brand you can interchange the body armor. Just a thought.
Hooked
2010 GTS 300 Super
Joined: 31 Oct 2009
Posts: 447
Location: Texas Hill Country
Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:21 am quote
I pretty much wear my:

Nolan 1/2 helmet
Corazzo Shop Jacket
Corazzo basic gloves (the yellow ones)
Khaki's or jeans
Adidas motorsport shoes.

If it's real cold (under 40) I will pull out the long underwear, Underhoody and Tempeste jacket.
Ossessionato
Joined: 17 Jul 2009
Posts: 3727
Location: Venice Beach, CA
Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:15 pm quote
Re: Thoughts on "traditional" scooter gear
mindspin wrote:
. Yes you can still have a high speed crash with the same results as on a motorcycle.
I've posted this pic lots of times, but here it is again.
This is from a 25mph crash. A car hit me while riding in the city.
So much for high speed...

Resident Grump
MAC motor 2WD. 30 Oct 2006
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Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:26 pm quote
I own it all, the hard part for me is wearing any of it. I almost always wear gloves. Taking another riders course, my third, to have my riding reviewed by a qualified instructor. Lost my ride partners when I parted ways and didn't like the idea of riding stoned.
Ossessionato
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Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:30 pm quote
It's definitely a personal choice, and there are a lot of variables, but just to name a few...

Risk Aversion
Rider Skill/experience
Riding Environment
Fashion/taste
Comfort

99% of the time I go with full gear - 3/4 helmet, armored jacket & pants, riding gloves, boots. I've gone without my armored pants a few times and did not feel at ease.

There's plenty of options to meet your needs and tastes. Be sure that if you're going to lay out a lot of money for gear, be sure it fits and is comfortable - especially helmets. The gear won't do you any good if it's sitting at home when you need it.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:35 pm quote
I'm all over the board, freeway or long rides Nolan N43 Trilogy, armored jacket - weight and type dependent on the weather from Brosh coolmax kevelar mesh (ordered from Israel) to lined armored buffalo hide jacket though that only gets pulled out if it is really cold usually Tourmaster denim with armor, at least jeans but may include armored riding pant mesh/texitle, gloves appropriate to the weather and boots.

Short ride to the gym or Starbucks in the summer I might wear shorts and Nolan N20 helmet with mesh gloves and a long sleeve overshirt and closed toed strapped/laced shoes. Yeah, I know that crashing at 30mph can cause a lot of road rash and broken bones but occasionally I just am not willing to fully gear up. I never ride without a helmet, rode without one once when my hair was wet early in the morning with no traffic and it still felt too wierd.
Hooked
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Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:49 pm quote
warm weather riding gear
cheers Mike

My Ride.jpg

Molto Verboso
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Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:52 pm quote
I took a blast for a couple freeway exits mid-day last Friday with very light traffic and warm weather. I had decided on remaining in my T-shirt and jeans, and my light warm-weather gloves, half-helmet (came with the scoot) and WWII-style goggles. While at speed, I noticed something flapping on either side of me, just above each shoulder. I leaned over to take a look in the mirror to discover the flapping was...

















...my neck.

Turns out that at that very sane freeway speed, my skin flaps in the wind like a shirt collar. Never before had I ridden without full helmet and armored jacket with the collar fastened.

My wife laughed herself to tears when I told her.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
T5s
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Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:53 pm quote
padded undies
no matter how hot it gets ... which isnt very nowadays ... i like to wrap up as if im ready to slide on tarmac ..... hopefully i wont but it hurts like fuck when it happens
Hooked
2001 ET4
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Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:30 pm quote
Z- we need to see pictures of that.
Zwerski wrote:
I took a blast for a couple freeway exits mid-day last Friday with very light traffic and warm weather. I had decided on remaining in my T-shirt and jeans, and my light warm-weather gloves, half-helmet (came with the scoot) and WWII-style goggles. While at speed, I noticed something flapping on either side of me, just above each shoulder. I leaned over to take a look in the mirror to discover the flapping was...
















...my neck.

Turns out that at that very sane freeway speed, my skin flaps in the wind like a shirt collar. Never before had I ridden without full helmet and armored jacket with the collar fastened.

My wife laughed herself to tears when I told her.
Banned
Vespa GTS300 Super
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Location: Sheffield, UK
Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:26 pm quote
Everyone to their own but personally I find my jaw, teeth, ankles, hip, elbows and knee's usefull.

So armoured jacket, jeans and boot's for me every trip.

As cool as anyone may look in all the retro scooter gear, you wouldn't feel very cool with all the above body part's smashed in.
Molto Verboso
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Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:10 pm quote
First Gear Rush Mesh jacket on hot days.. along with gloves & decent shoes never less than blue jeans.. Or full Kilimanjaro jacket.. with fill face shoei multi tec plus great gloves with solid knuckle protectors and Icon 3 boots.. depends on the heat.. I lust after a pair of good mesh pants.. lots of $$ but not sure if I would take the time to throw them on for a short trip..
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P200e
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Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:30 pm quote
Long time ago when I lived in Florida I fell off my MC doing about 10mph(I hit a patch of sand on a parking lot) I had on shorts, sandals (Flojos, remember those??) a full face helmet and I was wearing a jacket just because it was early spring. I scraped up pretty good my knees, hands, thigh and toes, also hit my head on the pavement. I learned my lesson, now I wear gloves, jacket (leather or Corazzo), jeans and boots everywhere I go.
Molto Verboso
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Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:42 pm quote
Jess,
You say you wear normal work pants when you ride to work. What kind of work do you do? What are normal work pants?
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Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:49 pm quote
Well, I think I've posted before about dressing-up for the scooter in gear I'd probably never ride my road bike in (cheerful hypocrite, me)

- 3/4 helmet with face shield
- one of three lightly armoured blouson jackets (gotta get a trench this winter)
(swapped out heavy back protector for lighter CE foam)
- light but kevlar'd gloves
- draggin' jeans (or chino's) or BMW summer pants (cordura + arnmour)
- iicon ankle boots or BMW airflow boots

.. and these in a couple of 'outfits' depending to the look of the day (inner city black, pseudo-rocker, taupe-and-denim country boy).

Of course, Ms Delectable has only one look, be it in Go-Go Gear Cafe or Corzzao trench and draggin' jeans ... and that is hot, hot, hot!
Banned
2007 Piaggio MP3 250s,2009 Honda Ruckus, 2005 Honda Big Ruckus
Joined: 01 May 2010
Posts: 297
Location: Snow country
Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:01 pm quote
Summer gears:

50cc riding gear:
open face helmet,3/4 helmet, gloves, sandals/summer heels, long sundresses, tank tops, capris...

250cc riding gear:
leather jacket, 3/4 helmet, gloves, leather boots, summer long pants/jeans.

Cold weather gears:
3/4 helmet, raccoon fur riding jacket, coyote fur vest, leather pants, fur leg warmers, fur boots...

New gears just added: full face helmet- Suomy Vandal Rapture, BCBG over the knee leather boots (4" heels),
Petty Tyrant
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Posts: 29653
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Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:10 pm quote
Richard H. Lemmon wrote:
Jess,
You say you wear normal work pants when you ride to work. What kind of work do you do? What are normal work pants?
Just pants. Slacks, if you will, but not that formal. I rarely wear jeans. More like Dockers, Chinos, what have you.
Hooked
Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 448

Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:53 pm quote
When i had my little spill last October I was going maybe 30mp when I suddenly lost control going into a 90 degree Left turn on blacktop. MY first thought was Shite, I am going down, then AMAZEMENT as I slid for about 35 feet laying full out with the scooter on top of me. I had on full Helmet, armored jacket , armor gloves and decent riding boots. My helmet has afew scratches, my camera-on a strap around my neck- is a bit abraded, and excluding the shoulder which I trashed when I hit on it, the only other damage was two inch long, 1/2 inch wide road rash scars on the Left knee. Oh I was wearing jeans . sigh... Only six more months til I can ride again.Maybe the scooter will actually be fixed by then. WEAR WHAT YOU WANT TO CRASH IN. PG
Moderator
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Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:02 pm quote
Wear what you want.

Get the protection you wear.

Accept the outcome of the decision you make.

Not a difficult question.
Hooked
2018 Honda NC750X DCT
Joined: 05 Aug 2007
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Location: Vancouver BC CANADA
Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:20 pm quote
wear what you want. accept the risks.

but i think if you asked Brittany Morrow if she would of rather been wearing gear the day she got her nickname of "the road rash queen" i think any of us would rather sweat than go thru the ordeal she did.

if you havent heard of her or her story. read it here

http://www.rockthegear.org/index.php?/testimonials/view/brittany_morrow_the_roadrash_queen/
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Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:01 pm quote
Many riders start out wanting to live out this stylish fantasy of scootering they've held onto for some time. Many eventually decide that to really enjoy riding—and not just fulfilling that image of riding—they need more and better gear. That's not true for everyone, though. It doesn't matter much as long as they understand the risks and take responsibility for their decisions.

Unfortunately, a lot of us (myself included) really don't understand the risks when we start riding. Or we delude ourselves, our spouses and concerned friends and family about them.

So experience and reading about others' experiences does a lot to dispel that fantasy. But as many (myself included, again) have learned very painfully, nothing shatters it like crashing.

Anecdotally, among the riders I know whose scooters were their first real powered 2-wheeled vehicle and who've been riding more than 2 years, I'd guess about 50% started with open face helmets but switched to full face or modular.
Banned
Vespa GTS300 Super
Joined: 25 Oct 2011
Posts: 512
Location: Sheffield, UK
Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:15 pm quote
Skyway6 wrote:
wear what you want. accept the risks.

but i think if you asked Brittany Morrow if she would of rather been wearing gear the day she got her nickname of "the road rash queen" i think any of us would rather sweat than go thru the ordeal she did.

if you havent heard of her or her story. read it here

http://www.rockthegear.org/index.php?/testimonials/view/brittany_morrow_the_roadrash_queen/
That should be enough to make anyone see sense. Wow! That made me feel sick.
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