New Fuzzy Washers
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
. . 2008 Blue MP3 400. . di Peluria Orso .... 1993 Kawasaki Vulcan 500 ....... 2013 Honda NC700XD
Joined: 02 Jun 2008
Posts: 5934
Location: Milledgeville, GA
Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:49 am quote
I have been procrastinating on trying a different size Fuzzy Washer. My original experience was to use a second stock 2mm washer and it was just what I wanted until I did a belt change and started having stalling problems from the belt dragging the housing at idle.

500 owners felt the second stock washer was too much. BubbaJon took the initiative of having some washers made at 1mm thickness, half the stock washer thickness. As most here know this has been wildly popular but now inventory is gone and none are available. We all owe BubbaJon thanks for his efforts to spread the joy.

This morning I talked with a couple machine shops and will have pricing back within a week. Should be no problem to get them deliverd in the U.S. for $10 each through paypal unless I get a pricing surprise different than preliminary discussion.

I also plan to try different sizes and need to know how many others might want to try a different size. The existing 1mm was not a scientific analysis, just split the difference between stock and nothing. It may not be optimum and like many things what is optimum for one of us is not the same for all with trade offs in such things as mpg vs acceleration.

I plan to get some 1.5mm washers as that is what I think will improve my performance on 400 and hopefully not drag the belt enough at idle to stall the engine. I also plan to get some 0.5mm ones as some have expressed the 1mm is more than they want and with other brand variators some have found even the 1mm has the stalling problem at idle.

Speak up if you want to try either 0.5mm or 1.5 mm as I don't want to be stuck with very many I can't get rid of. The 1mm may have a cash flow issue but I will eventually recover my money. The 1mm will move, it will just take time as new members join.


Please provide any and all feedback on the idea.
Ossessionato
MP3 500, Ducati ST4s
Joined: 21 May 2008
Posts: 2595
Location: Nomad currently in Yuma, AZ
Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:48 am quote
Interesting idea about different size may be optimal. Has anyone compiled which variators might work better with something other than 1mm?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 5009
Location: Austin, TX
Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:56 am quote
Re: New Fuzzy Washers
Fuzzy wrote:
500 owners felt the second stock washer was too much. BubbaJon took the initiative of having some washers made at 1mm thickness, half the stock washer thickness. As most here know this has been wildly popular but now inventory is gone and none are available. We all owe BubbaJon thanks for his efforts to spread the joy.

This morning I talked with a couple machine shops and will have pricing back within a week. Should be no problem to get them deliverd in the U.S. for $10 each through paypal unless I get a pricing surprise different than preliminary discussion.
The existing 1mm was not a scientific analysis, just split the difference between stock and nothing.
At the urging of Dirt I asked my buddy about a new order - I need to nudge him on this. Didn't know if it was a priority. Figure I unloaded about 200 of these things dunno how much of a market would be left. Not one person besides Dirt has contacted me to see if I wanted to get together a fresh batch.

The thing about 1mm being a guess is - pardon the expression - sorta fuzzy. The reason we started discussing this issue was a French company was marketing a variator that had the pulley re-ground to a different profile. It was generally agreed the take off performance was increased but no big difference could be experienced at higher speeds. Someone measured the increased gap and found it to me 1mm. So apparently the 1mm was engineered by the company that sold the modified variators. If I recall correctly, there arose a huge discussion of "would 1mm make that big a difference". You decided to take the bull by the horns so to speak and doubled up on the original. It was a success except for the rubbing so we surmised that was a big reason the original concept was fixed at 1mm.

I did in fact check on various thicknesses and even took a survey to see what people would want. They voted overwhelmingly for the 1mm.
In addition the .5mm would have been too pricey - it's apparently a PITA and very wasteful of materials to lop them off he end of a tool steel bar that thin. I was told that to make .5mm or less would be a better bet to stamp them - but then you have to factor in the tooling cost of the stamp & die - not to mention the inherent shortcomings of stamped parts. My suggestion for anyone desiring a .5mm or less would be to buy some shim stock and simply cut one out. Matter of fact that might just be a good way to go period for the few folks wanting a fuzzy washer. Our Euro friends can investigate the washer that one member posted - was it Maksor? - available in the hardware stores (where's he been lately?)
Veni, Vidi, Posti
. . 2008 Blue MP3 400. . di Peluria Orso .... 1993 Kawasaki Vulcan 500 ....... 2013 Honda NC700XD
Joined: 02 Jun 2008
Posts: 5934
Location: Milledgeville, GA
Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:37 am quote
Not interested in getting into competition BubbJon, but I understood you were not planning to make any more. Also the two machine shops I have talked to did not indicate a problem on the thinner washer. I don't want a thinner one but thought some might and I would just get them made at the same time. I do definitely want to try a thicker one and thought some others might too. I need to give him some quantity to get him interested but will be only a fraction of the 200 you had made.

For anyone wanting to read the history of the development here are some of the original threads.

Here is where I first proposed the idea but got no encouraging response so did not act on it. I was still riding a 250 at the time.
Extra Shim for Performance Upgrade?


This is the thread where someone shaved the thickness of the variator and I realized it was the same as my idea so I finally tried it. I also tried to gring a washer to thinner thickness to test but failed in the grinding attempt.
Hello and MP3 400 tuning question

This is the thread I started to get others attention on how much fun I was having. It was here that BubbaJon picked up on getting some 1mm washers made as the 2mm definitely had some issues. As previously stated his efforts really improved the results and spread the benefit to many more riders.
Variator Washer Mod - Major WOW Factor
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 5009
Location: Austin, TX
Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:07 am quote
Oh no - competition isn't a factor at all. Trying to save you money from investing in a pile of fuzzy washers for which there may be little market left. If you have a machine shop willing to make a small run for a reasonable price - hoo hah! Good deal!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 17562
Location: Kingston, Tennessee, Tn
Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:02 pm quote
I think bubba came up witha good idea on using shim stock to bump up from stock 2mm with a fuzzy 1mm and sandwich in between what ever you want to increase by.

I could see .5 mm , so you can adjust a .5mm to stock 2mm for a total of 2.5 and then you could shim up from there.

So I would be in for 2 .5mm washers
Molto Verboso
Red Mp 3 500
Joined: 08 Dec 2007
Posts: 1311
Location: Norman, Oklahoma. USA
Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:16 pm quote
Are there any fuzzy's left with anyone. I thought someone said they had several, and I asked them to bring me one to the gathering this spring. I must have misunderstood as they never got back to me. Meant to get one early but never got around to it. My goofup
Molto Verboso
2009 MP3 400ie, Silver- "Lorelei Lee Long"
Joined: 21 Nov 2011
Posts: 1065
Location: Louisville, KY
Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:37 pm quote
I'll be in the market for one in the fairly near future, much as I will be for the UFP/XT. I'm just not ready quite yet.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
. . 2008 Blue MP3 400. . di Peluria Orso .... 1993 Kawasaki Vulcan 500 ....... 2013 Honda NC700XD
Joined: 02 Jun 2008
Posts: 5934
Location: Milledgeville, GA
Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:44 am quote
sanogeo1 wrote:
Are there any fuzzy's left with anyone. I thought someone said they had several, and I asked them to bring me one to the gathering this spring. I must have misunderstood as they never got back to me. Meant to get one early but never got around to it. My goofup
I can bring one to thegathering. We can probably even install it there.
Molto Verboso
Red Mp 3 500
Joined: 08 Dec 2007
Posts: 1311
Location: Norman, Oklahoma. USA
Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:44 am quote
Sounds like a winner to me. If we have time. We all may be to busy having fun. Hopefully I'll remember to bring My inpack wrench. Getting excided about coming. It has been over 35 years that I have been in that part of the Us. Then if was just a drive thur at late night Heading for New York.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 17562
Location: Kingston, Tennessee, Tn
Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:21 am quote
sanogeo1 wrote:
Sounds like a winner to me. If we have time. We all may be to busy having fun. Hopefully I'll remember to bring My inpack wrench. Getting excided about coming. It has been over 35 years that I have been in that part of the Us. Then if was just a drive thur at late night Heading for New York.
do not bring the impact wrench. totally not needed. We have you covered for tools while at the gathering.
Molto Verboso
MP3 500 08
Joined: 08 Aug 2009
Posts: 1501
Location: Toms River area, New Jersey
Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:23 pm quote
Keep me interested in a .5 mm size.
Molto Verboso
Red Mp 3 500
Joined: 08 Dec 2007
Posts: 1311
Location: Norman, Oklahoma. USA
Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:26 pm quote
May pick up some Dr pulley sliders too. 17 gram I believe?
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 (sold) MP3 500 (current)
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 17808
Location: welaka, florida
Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:46 am quote
Yeah I like the 17 gram Dr. Pulleys.

I also think that getting the .5mm washers is the way to go for tuning and I would also take 2 of those.
Enthusiast
Fuoco
Joined: 16 Oct 2011
Posts: 76

Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:41 pm quote
For those who still want the fuzzy washer, another option is to get the stock 2mm and get a machine shop to just grind it down to whatever thickness u want.
Molto Verboso
MP3 500
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1079
Location: Utah
Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:56 pm quote
Pro for the .5 mm washer, will buy 2 to go.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 17562
Location: Kingston, Tennessee, Tn
Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:07 pm quote
TWdude26 wrote:
For those who still want the fuzzy washer, another option is to get the stock 2mm and get a machine shop to just grind it down to whatever thickness u want.
extremely tough to do.
Enthusiast
Fuoco
Joined: 16 Oct 2011
Posts: 76

Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:18 pm quote
old as dirt wrote:
TWdude26 wrote:
For those who still want the fuzzy washer, another option is to get the stock 2mm and get a machine shop to just grind it down to whatever thickness u want.
extremely tough to do.
I'm not refering to hand grinder...
But this with the magnetic chuck

One can simply stick the washer to the magnetic chuck and remove material by the micron. I have used one before many many years ago.
Molto Verboso
MP3 500
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1079
Location: Utah
Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:45 pm quote
old as dirt wrote:
TWdude26 wrote:
For those who still want the fuzzy washer, another option is to get the stock 2mm and get a machine shop to just grind it down to whatever thickness u want.
extremely tough to do.
Or you can do it on the cheap with a wet horizontal vibratory flat lap rock polishing unit. Any rock hounds out there? Now is the time to tell your honey your hobby can make make some money. Who in the neighborhood cares if it needs to run constantly for a month or two.
Enthusiast
Piagio MP3 250
Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 72
Location: Louisville, Kentucky
Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:10 pm quote
Maynard Schweigert wrote:
old as dirt wrote:
TWdude26 wrote:
For those who still want the fuzzy washer, another option is to get the stock 2mm and get a machine shop to just grind it down to whatever thickness u want.
extremely tough to do.
Or you can do it on the cheap with a wet horizontal vibratory flat lap rock polishing unit. Any rock hounds out there? Now is the time to tell your honey your hobby can make make some money. Who in the neighborhood cares if it needs to run constantly for a month or two.
I recall resurfacing a head using a whet stone and parts cleaning fluid, It took me a long time but the same concept could be applied to take the stock washer down to what ever lower thickness you want. Of course you will need a micrometer to measure the thickness as you take material off. Of course if there are some available that were done by a macine shop that is the way I would go, the other is just an idea for those who want the washers after they are all gone.
Enthusiast
Fuoco
Joined: 16 Oct 2011
Posts: 76

Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:29 pm quote
Precisely, we are all just suggesting alternatives instead of going into mass production
Molto Verboso
2009 MP3 400ie, Silver- "Lorelei Lee Long"
Joined: 21 Nov 2011
Posts: 1065
Location: Louisville, KY
Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:46 pm quote
Anyone got the inside and outside diameters handy? I know they are here somewhere but can't find them right now.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 5009
Location: Austin, TX
Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:21 am quote
Sidecutter wrote:
Anyone got the inside and outside diameters handy? I know they are here somewhere but can't find them right now.
The original thread that Fuzzy linked to has it all.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
. . 2008 Blue MP3 400. . di Peluria Orso .... 1993 Kawasaki Vulcan 500 ....... 2013 Honda NC700XD
Joined: 02 Jun 2008
Posts: 5934
Location: Milledgeville, GA
Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:48 am quote
Update - Found an alternate source
The machine shop that promised me pricing never got back to me. Not a priority to them I guess.

Second machine shop needed an electrical repair to their magnetic bed grinder which is probably done by now so I can call if I want.

Checked a third machine shop today and he was concerned that even at 1 mm whasher is too thin to make on a lathe and cut off without bending. Should pull back flat on install but not sure of torque needed vs spec on bike.

Third shop did however sugest another source, McMaster Carr. Perhaps we should call them Fuzzy Shims as in McMaster Carr the lable is "Round Metric Shim". The size is not exact but after discussion with OAD I think they will work. The price is right. I ordered some in 0.5MM, 1MM and 1.5MM thicknesses made of spring steel. (They also have stainless but at much higher cost and to me no added value). Minimum order is 10 but cost is less than a dollar each plus tax and shipping (probably total still under a dollar but the web page does not give shipping cost.) Promised to ship today so should be here when I get home next week.

Size
...........BubbaJ.....McMaster C
ID.......24.05MM....25MM
OD......36MM.........36MM
Thick.....1MM.........0.5, 1, 1.5 MM (Thinner available but I did not order)

The only issue is slightly larger ID makes for a sloppy fit on the shaft. Before taking any requests to share I want to see how one fits on my ride, hopefully next weekend Apr 21. If not centered the washer will possible extend beyond shoulder of shaft at some point and possibley touch the ID of the belt. Not a big concern but why do it. I think the shim could be centered and stuck to either the face of the front pulley half or the stock washer prior to installing. Once the nut is tightened it won't move so it just has to be held centered until the nut is tight.

The other item on these vs BJ's is accuracy. He threw out ones that were not very accurate on thickness or sold at a discount. These only give a accuracy of +- 0.05mm or 0.002". I challenge anyone to notice the difference but they are not the same and do not want to represent them any different.

If anyone can't wait for me to verify the washers feel free to order your own from McMaster Carr http://www.mcmaster.com/#round-metric-shims/=h39f9n There may be other sources by searching shims vs washer. I had looked in McMaster Carr befior but did not think to look under "Shim" Be advised that ordering from McMaster Carr on line they do not tell you what shipping will be so my cost on a small order could skyrocket.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 17562
Location: Kingston, Tennessee, Tn
Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:53 am quote
excellent find. I agree with adhering them to the existing washer with a little glue so the can center up till installed and torqued.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 5009
Location: Austin, TX
Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:02 am quote
old as dirt wrote:
excellent find. I agree with adhering them to the existing washer with a little glue so the can center up till installed and torqued.
That was a good find! I'd personally use a dab of grease to hold it in place - or maybe even a dab of clear nail polish on the edge.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
. . 2008 Blue MP3 400. . di Peluria Orso .... 1993 Kawasaki Vulcan 500 ....... 2013 Honda NC700XD
Joined: 02 Jun 2008
Posts: 5934
Location: Milledgeville, GA
Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:06 am quote
BubbaJon wrote:
old as dirt wrote:
excellent find. I agree with adhering them to the existing washer with a little glue so the can center up till installed and torqued.
That was a good find! I'd personally use a dab of grease to hold it in place - or maybe even a dab of clear nail polish on the edge.
Thanks,
I was thinking about what best to hold it and not squeeze out to cause a problem when torqued.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 17562
Location: Kingston, Tennessee, Tn
Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:11 am quote
BubbaJon wrote:
old as dirt wrote:
excellent find. I agree with adhering them to the existing washer with a little glue so the can center up till installed and torqued.
That was a good find! I'd personally use a dab of grease to hold it in place - or maybe even a dab of clear nail polish on the edge.
no to grease , don't want any of that on your belt. Nail polish is good idea though.
Hooked
MP3 400
Joined: 13 Aug 2010
Posts: 287
Location: Chicago, IL
Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:21 pm quote
much better with fuzzy
I did the Dr Pulley 15gm sliders and took a standard washer from ace hardware with a much smaller whole and drilled and filed a large whole. A lot of work to get it to the correct size whole. I did see that someone from the UK found a 50 cent washer that was 3mm thick and just replaced the 2mm with a 3mm washer (and no, it wasn't a KitchenAid:)) . Well worth the cost vs make decision. And significant improvement in eliminating initial lag and improved acceleration.
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 (sold) MP3 500 (current)
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 17808
Location: welaka, florida
Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:32 pm quote
old as dirt wrote:
BubbaJon wrote:
old as dirt wrote:
excellent find. I agree with adhering them to the existing washer with a little glue so the can center up till installed and torqued.
That was a good find! I'd personally use a dab of grease to hold it in place - or maybe even a dab of clear nail polish on the edge.
no to grease , don't want any of that on your belt. Nail polish is good idea though.
a small drop of superglue would probably work too.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 5009
Location: Austin, TX
Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:36 pm quote
old as dirt wrote:
BubbaJon wrote:
old as dirt wrote:
excellent find. I agree with adhering them to the existing washer with a little glue so the can center up till installed and torqued.
That was a good find! I'd personally use a dab of grease to hold it in place - or maybe even a dab of clear nail polish on the edge.
no to grease , don't want any of that on your belt. Nail polish is good idea though.
nahhh - just enough to hold via surface tension won't go anywhere. we're only talking shims here - although I will give you that there are folks that might glop the stuff on so perhaps I should clarify the concept of "dab".
Molto Verboso
MP3 500
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1079
Location: Utah
Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:52 pm quote
Screw the chems, just magnetise it lightly.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
. . 2008 Blue MP3 400. . di Peluria Orso .... 1993 Kawasaki Vulcan 500 ....... 2013 Honda NC700XD
Joined: 02 Jun 2008
Posts: 5934
Location: Milledgeville, GA
Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:23 am quote
Received
Washers were here when I got home last night. They are as expected. Accurate on thickness and diameter with ID a little big.

Unfortunately my new belt was not here so may be a few days before I install.

McMaster Carr added $11 shipping so total cost was $38.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
. . 2008 Blue MP3 400. . di Peluria Orso .... 1993 Kawasaki Vulcan 500 ....... 2013 Honda NC700XD
Joined: 02 Jun 2008
Posts: 5934
Location: Milledgeville, GA
Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:41 pm quote
Had a chance to install the new shim / washer today. Used nail polish to stick 1.5mm shim onto a stock 2mm washer. OD matches perfectly and as projected the ID is bigger and thus the sticking together with the nail polish.

Here is a pic of the the wshers together with the 1.5 shim on top. You can see the ssmaller ID of the stock wawher behind it.


Side view of the washer and shim.


Installed with the stock washer to back and shim in front.


Went for a quick 90 mile ride. I like the 1.5 mm but must stress this is personal preference. A bit higher rpm for quicker acceleration. Time will tell if mpg changes.

I have extra shims / washers available if someone wants one in 0.5mm, 1.0mm and 1.5mmthickness. $5.00 for first one, and $2.50 each for second or third of different sizes delivered in U. S. If someone wants multiple of same size you will probably do just as well or better ordering direct from McMaster Carr. If interested PM me for PayPal info. I spend a lot of time on the road so cn take a week to get in mail. Be advised McMaster Carr added $11 shipping to my order. For outside the U.S as these are metric sizes you can probably get them lower cost locally. Not sure how language will translate but these were sold as round shims, not washers. Backup option would be to order package of shims from McMaster Carr and send complete package to someone to distribute locally outside U.S.

McMaster Carr info http://www.mcmaster.com/#round-metric-shims/=h7y5qh .
Member
Piaggio MP3 500
Joined: 09 May 2012
Posts: 5
Location: SoCal
Wed May 09, 2012 1:13 pm quote
Re: much better with fuzzy
FredChiTown wrote:
I did the Dr Pulley 15gm sliders and took a standard washer from ace hardware with a much smaller whole and drilled and filed a large whole. A lot of work to get it to the correct size whole. I did see that someone from the UK found a 50 cent washer that was 3mm thick and just replaced the 2mm with a 3mm washer (and no, it wasn't a KitchenAid:)) . Well worth the cost vs make decision. And significant improvement in eliminating initial lag and improved acceleration.
Hi Fred, I'm heading to the UK in a couple weeks. Any ideas where to purchase the 3mm (50 cent) washers?? Thanks!!
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