PX 150 tuned engine vs PX 200 standard
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Enthusiast
Joined: 07 Sep 2009
Posts: 86
Location: New Zealand
Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:38 pm quote
A few months ago I fitted a Pinasco 177, 24/24 carb, SIP road exhaust and had it jetted accordingly. It certainly made a big improvement over the sluggish standard 150 engine, but I have to be honest it still leaves me a bit disappointed.

I can get hold of a brand new PX 200 engine and I am seriously wondering would this be the better option?

Does anyone have any experience with this situation?
Primasarah
1979 P200E, 1977 Rally 200, 1974 Primavera
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 3074
Location: Lake Worth, FL
Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:52 pm quote
in b4 someone says a kitted px150 is faster than a px200.
Hooked
04 Geely 50cc
Joined: 18 Jul 2011
Posts: 109

Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:29 pm quote
Travis totally thinks a kitted 150 is better than a 200.
Addicted
Vespa GL Touring 180, Vespa GL 225, Vespa PX 200 Sahara Edition
Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Posts: 557
Location: Norway
Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:35 pm quote
They should both make about the same amount of power.
Check out http://lfs.alexander-hepp.de/. It seems the stockish 177 setups will give you around 11 hp. Compare that to a stock 200 engine with 9 hp.


The 200 will have higher gearing, but might also feel slower because of that.

Add a touring exhaust to the 200 and it'll be slightly faster and slightly more powerfull.
Hooked
Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Posts: 172

Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:07 am quote
Kitted is such a relative term, I'd ride a good kitted PX1xx anyday before a stock PX200. But if I was offered to get either of them I'd get the PX200 and ofcourse give it a good tuning!

Here's a kitted 125 by PEP Parts (in german but you get it)

Motor:

- LML 125 Motorblock mit Membraneinlaß
- Quattrini 172 Zylinderkit (66% Sehne) 195° zu 131°
- 63 mm Crank Welle (190 ccm)
- ASS mit Vforce Membrane
- TM 38 Mikuni
- Standard Zündung mit abgedrehtem Lüra
- Auspuff: PEP Entwicklung

Banned
Joined: 31 Mar 2012
Posts: 95
Location: uk
Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:10 am quote
Increasing the power is one thing.

The next is gearing.

Try changing the std 20 tooth clutch for a 22 tooth.

The 200 series of scoots power bands are different.

A tuned scoot generally revs higher than a std 200.

It depends which way you want to go.

Higher revs equals less reliability and longevity, but if speedy thrills are what you want, then that’s the way to go.

A torquey engine will be best suited for long cruise's, my 166 malossi, has a 22 tooth clutch and sits at 55 mph at around 5700 rpm, and will do so all day long.

Its your choice on what you want.
Enthusiast
Joined: 07 Sep 2009
Posts: 86
Location: New Zealand
Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:32 am quote
I was actually wondering if it is worth changing the gearing.

The kit has been 'bolted on' so is running a standard crank with no case work. Is it worth getting these last two done? Does it make a noticeable difference?
Ossessionato
vb1, vglb, mermaid 150,125, cbr250r 2011
Joined: 08 Apr 2009
Posts: 3217
Location: west aus
Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:57 am quote
mbnz77 wrote:
I was actually wondering if it is worth changing the gearing.

The kit has been 'bolted on' so is running a standard crank with no case work. Is it worth getting these last two done? Does it make a noticeable difference?
yeh id at least ave the ports lined up a bit


primary gearing change ive never done



my now sold p125/177polini wewre quicker possibly than a p200 but more noisy


cant beat a vespa 200 for long rides
Banned
Joined: 31 Mar 2012
Posts: 95
Location: uk
Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:44 am quote
Mine is just bolted on no case match, with std carb (20), and 22 tooth clutch. It does have a pinasco exhaust, but i very rarely rev it high enough to use it. All the exhaust is doing at the moment is generating heat!

The 22 tooth clutch on mine, in 3rd and fourth the acceleration is a little slower, but the ride-ability is far better. Very Very pleased with it. I have cased match on other kits, and it does make a noticable difference. But as i said this setup suits me, and dont get me wrong, it isnt slow.

If you want to maximise a kit, case match, increase carb to a tapered needle, reed valve, race crank, variable ignition, huge expansion pipe.

Personally I would buy a bike! Its all been done before, no real egineering challange anymore, a huge money pit.


Put the clutch on first, you can always take it off again!

ps if its an lml change crank anyway. vespa you should be ok as of now, but anymore tuning it will need to be upgraded. By the way whats your main stack and idle jet?
Moderator
1980 P200E - "Old Rusty"
Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Posts: 6984
Location: Redwood City, CA
Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:49 am quote
Magg wrote:
They should both make about the same amount of power.
Check out http://lfs.alexander-hepp.de/. It seems the stockish 177 setups will give you around 11 hp. Compare that to a stock 200 engine with 9 hp.
I know some 200s have low compression heads, but many 200s are about 12hp instead of 9. Might want to double-check what the norm is for your geographic region before deciding. 3hp is a big difference! Mine's a 12hp.
Banned
Joined: 31 Mar 2012
Posts: 95
Location: uk
Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:35 am quote
i'm treating the 9 hp as a typo!
Addicted
Vespa GL Touring 180, Vespa GL 225, Vespa PX 200 Sahara Edition
Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Posts: 557
Location: Norway
Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:17 am quote
9 hp is not a typo.

9hp is at the rear wheel. It's about what you get when you run a stock px200 on a dyno. And that's with the regular head, not the low compression one.

My 150 GL Touring (177cc, PEP2 exhaust, a 24/24 carb and a 23/64 upgear) and my PX 200 (stock w/sip road) perform about the same.

The PX 200 has a higher top speed due to the higher gearing, but generally feels more sluggish because of that. Plus it's about 20-30 kgs heavier as well.
Enthusiast
Joined: 07 Sep 2009
Posts: 86
Location: New Zealand
Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:55 pm quote
Magg wrote:
9 hp is not a typo.

9hp is at the rear wheel. It's about what you get when you run a stock px200 on a dyno. And that's with the regular head, not the low compression one.

My 150 GL Touring (177cc, PEP2 exhaust, a 24/24 carb and a 23/64 upgear) and my PX 200 (stock w/sip road) perform about the same.

The PX 200 has a higher top speed due to the higher gearing, but generally feels more sluggish because of that. Plus it's about 20-30 kgs heavier as well.
9hp at the rear wheel is correct, I owned a 200 around 10 years ago which was dynoed and she was 9.
Moderator
1980 P200E - "Old Rusty"
Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Posts: 6984
Location: Redwood City, CA
Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:37 pm quote
that makes more sense, yes
Ossessionato
74 Super, 75 Super, patchwork VBB
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 2370
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:33 pm quote
mbnz77 wrote:
I was actually wondering if it is worth changing the gearing.

The kit has been 'bolted on' so is running a standard crank with no case work. Is it worth getting these last two done? Does it make a noticeable difference?
I ran mine (Pinasco 177) just bolted on for a year or so, then when I split the case for some other reason I matched the ports. I couldn't really tell the difference to be honest.
Enthusiast
Joined: 07 Sep 2009
Posts: 86
Location: New Zealand
Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:54 pm quote
Interesting... has anyone fitted an aftermaket crank with the Pinasco 177? What sort of gains can be expected?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
P2,VNB,SUPER,V90
Joined: 27 Jul 2010
Posts: 7989
Location: This is't my locker!
Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:26 pm quote
mbnz77 wrote:
Interesting... has anyone fitted an aftermaket crank with the Pinasco 177? What sort of gains can be expected?
I put a Mazzuchelli full circle in w/ mine and it's hard to say, because I did other stuff at the same time ie: reed block, carb, changed the Primary, so I didn't have a clear "before / after"... One of Al's HRS cranks would have no doubt been a better choice but didn't happen at the time... But I think if I had JUST changed the crank, I think the performance difference would have been nominal.
Ossessionato
74 Super, 75 Super, patchwork VBB
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 2370
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:17 pm quote
Agree with you there Vader. I put in a Worb5 flowed longstroke later on and once again, couldn't definitely say it was a big improvement. I saw my biggest improvement from a reed valve (swapped all my gear into LML reed cases) and a higher-compression MMW head. I did these at the same time so can't say which had the most bang for buck but I'm thinking it was probably the head.

How much is the 200 going to set you back? That's an important question before you start.... if you're like me you'll want just a little more. For now. So you may end up buying the 200 and then wanting... just a little more.
Ossessionato
vbb2 '64, '74 sprint v, '92 excel 200
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 4467
Location: Indo
Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:19 pm quote
i run a 150cc 20-20 carb but have change the gearing and using 23 teeth with a stock px exhaust.. never done a dyno but tested once with a p200 and equaly match in a short run and never want to test it on a long run but.... ..that engine were in a smallframe so i cheat the weight to power theory
Hooked
"worlds 2nd fastest"74'super 150 . 79'p177x ,1983 lml 150, 2007aprilia sxv 450.
Joined: 14 Jan 2012
Posts: 152
Location: vancouver bc
Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:14 am quote
huh?
a bike seems more fun to ride when its working closer to its limits ... thats why a p200 isnt as much fun as a kitted p177...the 177 is closer to its limitations ,but has same horse power as p200...the closer you are to the limits of the the machines power...the more exhilarating is the riding experience...(ginch is right...(then you will want to kit the 200!).
as for kitting.... if you change one thing, it wont make a difference... example...if you open intake port, not much difference....untill you port the piston and rework the head, and jug...then big improvement! .. it is adjustments ,working in concert with other adjustments, that net you the noticeable improvements in performance.....tuning seems to be a linear equation... i think the other members on this forum are saying the same thing too...
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