Paint is off. Frame not bad, not perfect. Dangerous welds?
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Tue May 08, 2012 1:48 am quote
Hi all. This is a 1970 Sprint body that's being resprayed at the shop next to my house. Overall it doesn't seem to be in such bad shape, and the shop says they see no need to do any welding, so I take that as good news.

However, it appears to have been welded in the past.

Since I have no experience with welding and very little idea how to assess structural integrity, anybody with some expertise willing to weigh in? Does it look dangerous to you?

Also, I drove this bike pretty much daily for about a year and a half, and it always seemed pretty sound. And my girlfriend is the one who dinged up the legshield. She hit a curb while learning to drive it in a parking lot and finally got it through her head that the clutch lever does not make you stop. Heh.

Finally, it looks like they didn't blast the insides of the cowls. This is probably less than good, yes?

Thanks in advance for the advice!



















































Veni, Vidi, Posti
a not so normal vbb2 '64, a weirdo vbx '86 and a not so normal pts100 '82
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Tue May 08, 2012 1:55 am quote
i dunno who weld ur bike before but it seem u cannot avoid bondo to hide the weld in ur center floor if i were you i will reweld it in a nicer condition and ur floorboard, it had 2 bones but from pics it appear someone allready change it in past (normally aftermarket floorboard have 3 bones but ur is 2 so i pressume whoever change it have similar mind with me )

other then that the frame look strong

have a nice day and cheer mate
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Tue May 08, 2012 2:18 am quote
Hi Ebeth!
Quote:
i dunno who weld ur bike before but it seem u cannot avoid bondo to hide the weld in ur center floor
Because the body shop deals mostly with cars, if the welds look strong to the folks on the board, I'll probably just let the shop use a little bondo to hide the welds. Since they're not scooter people, I don't know if I'd trust them to do a better job of welding.
Quote:
ur floorboard, it had 2 bones but from pics it appear someone allready change it in past (normally aftermarket floorboard have 3 bones but ur is 2 so i pressume whoever change it have similar mind with me
So those welds that show on the bottom of the floor make you think that someone changed the floor out at one point, but that they used the floor from another scooter rather than buy an aftermarket floor? That would make sense.

Thanks for the input, and have a great day in Jakarta, mas bro!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
a not so normal vbb2 '64, a weirdo vbx '86 and a not so normal pts100 '82
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Tue May 08, 2012 2:45 am quote
i am still confuse wheter its the original floor nor a replacement, if the body shop were for cars i will trust them to do the weld nor atleast grid it till it achive the best result, but best not to use bondo at all in ur floorboard as it will crack due time and stress cause the centerstand (unless u shorten ur centerstand like mine ) a car body work can perform a nice metal work with dolly hammer, thisngs that miss out by almost all vespa resto shop i ever found ask them to reshape the cowl and the legshield alongside the fender, its a easy job if they have dolly hammer.. i learn most of the hitting to bring back the shape from a car body shop and not scooter shop

be a very annoying customer and ask for the best result mate, remember u paid them to do their best so teach them to be the best for u

have a nice day in Jogja and cheer mate
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Tue May 08, 2012 3:18 am quote
Okay, Ebeth, now I'm going to ask you for a bahasa Indonesia lesson.

I know they're going to reshape the legshield/fender/cowl using a hammer (and a dolly, I assume), because when I was there today and asked kalau ini perlu dilas lagi, masnya bilang "Tidak, tinggal menukul saja," and made a hammering motion. Also not sure what actual word he said, but menukul (verb: hammer, thanks Google Translate) seems close, if I remember correctly.

Also, when I first took it in, I said, "Kalau bisa, minta jangan pakai tembul." Is "tembul" (or something close) the word for bondo/filler? I've never seen it written, but it's the word my friend at the bengkel Vespa used when I was talking to him, so I tried to learn that one and use it at the body shop. I think they knew what I meant.

Finally, if I wanted to ask them to weld and grind the center of the floor to make it smooth, would it be "Minta di las dan menggiling bagian lantai ini sampai jadi halus" ?

Thanks again, man. You're incredibly helpful!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
a not so normal vbb2 '64, a weirdo vbx '86 and a not so normal pts100 '82
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Tue May 08, 2012 4:31 am quote
pukul, memukul = hitting, hammering
dempul = bondo
gerinda = grinder

ok another tips, if u ask them to hammer down the floorboard where the weld took action i will ask them to make a jig first like this one



that way when they hit the center board the frame wont twist

told them this

" tolong ini body tengah di sobek lagi las-annya dan di perhalus sisa lasnya dengan gerinda, dan saya tidak ingin ada dempul jadi tolong semua bagian yang tidak lurus diketok magic sampai kembali ke bentuk sempurna mulai dari body tengah sampai spakbor dan boks kiri kanannya, dan jangan lupa tolong tuangkan pelingkot ke bagian didalam body mulai dari bawah tangki hingga ke bagian bawah tulang tengah dan juga dari bagian fork atas dan semua bagian kolong "

in english
" would u please, tear down the previous weld and reweld it again and this time try to smoothing the final touch of the weld by grind it smooth and i dont want any bondo took part in this resto so please hit and hammer down all the dent back to the origin shape starting from the frame, front fender until both cowl, and also dont forget to pour a anti rust (u choose from por-19, till undercoating rubberzoid) ke the inside of the frame start from unter the gas tank till the inside of the spine and also from the inside legshield where the fork enter also all the rest of the underneat section"

most car shop can weld like this


this way its easy to grind and not too mess up too much

and if u found there a joint that weak u can shoot a new one with a brass.. which is stronger then metal weld



and one more advice, dont u dare tell my resto secret tips that i just told you to the other Indo boys out there i mean it mate, they (most Indonesia vespa rider) hate my cheapo way so let them do their way and stay away from my method

good luck with the sprint and cheer Jesse
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Tue May 08, 2012 4:48 am quote
Well, informasi itu sangat lengkap! Terima kasih! Besok aku ke bengkel lagi, dan aku membawa laptop, biar mereka lihat post ini!

And don't worry, your restoration secrets are safe with me!

Cheers, and thanks again!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
a not so normal vbb2 '64, a weirdo vbx '86 and a not so normal pts100 '82
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Tue May 08, 2012 4:59 am quote
anytime brother anytime i am more then happy to help you, shame ur aint my neighbour otherwise it will be a fun resto doing it together and beside vespa there's one thing i do best for a friend and that is cooking
Moderibbit
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Tue May 08, 2012 5:10 am quote
awesome info, Ebeth
Veni, Vidi, Posti
a not so normal vbb2 '64, a weirdo vbx '86 and a not so normal pts100 '82
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Tue May 08, 2012 5:20 am quote
thanks Xantu, i am just doing my best as a friend
Molto Verboso
1974 Vespa Sprint Veloce, 1963 VBB 180 Custom
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Tue May 08, 2012 5:58 am quote
JJC,

will you please repost all of those photos in the Bodgespotting thread?

Bodgespotting
Enthusiast
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Tue May 08, 2012 6:37 am quote
Quote:
and beside vespa there's one thing i do best for a friend and that is cooking
Aw, man, Ebeth, now you're really making want to visit Jakarta! I could certainly go for some masakan Batawi!

JSharp:

I feel reticent to put it over in the Bodgespotting thread because the body repairs, while not pretty by any means, don't seem to be unsafe, nor were they made with the sole intention of export for sale (I bought this from a guy who runs a local shop that doesn't do exports, and I sincerely doubt he's the one who had it welded, though I'll ask him).

We'll let some other people weigh in, but in this case, Southeast Asian ≠ bodge, methinks, though, like I said in the original post, I know fuck all about welding, so if someone wants to explain to me why I'm wrong, I do like to learn stuff!

And, that said, if someone who knows about welding weighs in and says they would never ride this bike because they're afraid it'll tear in half, then I fully support moving it over to Bodgespotting with the explanation of why it's there.

Finally, I'm not taking umbrage, by any means. I bought this bike for about $380, and I had the paint stripped off partially because I wanted to see if there was anything unsafe about it. But until I'm convinced that there is, I won't give it the "bodge" label. And if someone convinces me it is a bodge, I think I'll probably spend the money to have it fixed properly, if that's possible.

But for now I'm still (shamelessly) fishing for input!
TEAM #68
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Tue May 08, 2012 7:06 am quote
With respect JJC mate, a bodge by any other name still looks like a bodge.

I think most people here would agree that one of the things that defines a bodge is welding, especially bad welding and alot of it (which that bike has), I don't think you can use the excuse that it wasn't for export so it's not a bodge, whether a bike is exported or not does not define it as a bodge.
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Tue May 08, 2012 7:49 am quote
I've, as of late, began to diverge from the classical British definition of "bodge." Up until recently, the bodge has always meant a temporary of imperfect fix/repair typically completed by someone who is lazy or lacks the competence of a technician.

But now I use the definition: Any repair carried out in an effort to deceive or defraud. Of course, such repair/fix is usually because of the person's laziness and/or incompetence. The noun version would be the thing that was being sold.

Such definitions aren't geographically specific.
Moderibbit
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Tue May 08, 2012 8:10 am quote
Looks like it was extensively repaired in the face of extensive southeast asian moisture rot, to me. Not franken-biked together. I don't personally care much about what term is applied to this instance, but I think it was done to legitimately keep this bike on the road and in service, not defraud someone.
Ossessionato
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Tue May 08, 2012 8:38 am quote
xantufrog wrote:
Looks like it was extensively repaired in the face of extensive southeast asian moisture rot, to me. Not franken-biked together. I don't personally care much about what term is applied to this instance, but I think it was done to legitimately keep this bike on the road and in service, not defraud someone.
Agreed.
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Tue May 08, 2012 8:43 am quote
Edit: By the way, this frame is the one in my avatar, if anyone's interested.

AKP:
Quote:
With respect JJC mate, a bodge by any other name still looks like a bodge....one of the things that defines a bodge is welding, especially bad welding and alot of it (which that bike has)
Agreed that it looks like a bodge. But since the big problem with bad bodge welding is that the bikes are unsafe to ride, that's what I'm really interested in, whether or not the frame is safe to ride.

SFvsr:
Quote:
I've, as of late, began to diverge from the classical British definition of "bodge." Up until recently, the bodge has always meant a temporary of imperfect fix/repair typically completed by someone who is lazy or lacks the competence of a technician.
I think this definition applies.
Quote:
But now I use the definition: Any repair carried out in an effort to deceive or defraud.
This one definitely does not. I quite agree with xantufrog:
Quote:
I think it was done to legitimately keep this bike on the road and in service, not defraud someone.
But that leaves open the question of whether or not the bike is roadworthy, and the answer to that question, I think, will be what determines whether or not it should go in the Bodgespotting thread as a cautionary example, or whether it's a decent frame that has some ugly but functional welds.

All I can say in its defense (again, I know very, very little about welding in general and even less about welding these frames), is that my girl ran it into a curb going about 5 mph, and I dumped it a couple of times at comparable speeds (slipped in mud and tipped over while making a U-turn kind of shit), but none of that broke it in half.

And say whatever you want about the bike, please. I'm not going to get angry about it or defend it unreasonably (probably--heh). It's not my baby or anything. I'm just trying to garner some opinions from folks who know what they're talking about when it comes to welding, because I totally don't.

Bottom line: If it's unsafe: Bodgespotting thread, and I'll get it fixed by a professional (if fixing is possible) or find a new frame. If it's safe: I'll have the cosmetics worked on per Ebeth's advice and rock it with confidence and pride.

Last edited by JJC on Tue May 08, 2012 8:53 am; edited 1 time in total
Ossessionato
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Tue May 08, 2012 8:47 am quote
What's with the roads in that country? Doesn't anyone pay taxes? No infrastructure? Those scooters would be in a lot better shape if that country would buy some paving equipment.
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Tue May 08, 2012 8:57 am quote
Ha! Ebeth can probably give you a much more enlightened response, but yeah, people pay taxes, and a lot of that money gets pocketed by various government officials at various levels. Potholes are often repaired by the people who live near the pothole.

Also, if you could stop all the damn tropical rain, the frames would certainly be in better shape. Of course, the same does not go for the rainforests, which have enough trouble given the extensive slash and burn palm oil tree plantation action. Good lord, I'm starting to sound like my girl!

Edit: Seriously, though, palm oil plantations are downright evil (palm oil is terrible for your health and for the environment), though a local ecologist I spoke to recently said that vehicle emissions top his list of concerns.
Hooked
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Tue May 08, 2012 9:31 am quote
The guy Squatting in the back says it all, Throw it in the nearest river.
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Tue May 08, 2012 9:33 am quote
eric marin wrote:
The guy Squatting in the back says it all, Throw it in the nearest river.
The OP lives in Indonesia.

Also, don't be an ass.
Hooked
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Tue May 08, 2012 9:42 am quote
if you are worried about the strength of the frame and aren't worried about keeping it original.
then a bar welded between the seat and headstock , with or without a small motorcycle tank will make the frame virtually unbreakable..
Hooked
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Tue May 08, 2012 9:51 am quote
Your in all the way now!
Your bike doesn't look dangerous... But it is a mess.......get all the rust sanded. Or it will return.......reinforce by welding...the rear shock mount....carefully measure the steering neck to. Motor pivot holes distances.......i ncert a long stiff metal rod in the motor pivot holes. Equal lengths on both sides and measure to the steering neck...If one side is longer... Then put a prybar in the neck while yourfatfriend sits on the bike...and start yanking....the Asians do good welding...but they think a jig is an irish dance....they weld the leg shield, and it warps the steering tube....
Koenig seems to have lots of good advice...and experience...go with it

Last edited by tailgate on Tue May 08, 2012 10:44 am; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
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Tue May 08, 2012 9:54 am quote
Someone should ping Professor Plum for his advice.

Welding something correctly to correct rust issues, etc, is not BODGE. Period.

Welding something incorrectly and then painting and bondoing to HIDE welds, esp poor welds, or make it appear that a scooter is original rather than having had work done IS Bodge.

Rust is a fact of life. Welding in replacement pieces, grinding them down, etc, is a standard way of correcting rust issues, esp in old cars, trucks, and, yes, even scooters.

If you ram a scooter fender in a wreck and it tears the metal and you cut it out and re-weld another piece of metal in place and grind it and paint it is that a bodge? FFS no it is not.

Let's reserve the term "bodge" for real bodges:

Farmer bodge: creative way of keeping a scooter running with no malicious intent involved (i.e., pedal for the throttle cable). usually done because the owner was ignorant of how to properly fix the scooter but also isn't hiding what work was done.

Asian/unscrupulous seller bodge: welding two frames together at weak stress points and then covering with bondo and pretty paint to hide the fact that it is two scooters and trying to pass it off as a "restored" original.

Simple metal work to correct the fact that all metal will rust is NOT bodging.

Hell if that were the case every pair of drop bars in the world is a "bodge"
nothing at all
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Tue May 08, 2012 9:54 am quote
I have experience welding but not on these bikes with the thin gauge steel. I had a rotten section of my floorboard cut out and repaired at my buddys muffler shop and noticed if your heat is too high you can ripple the gauge.

Honestly the only person on here that "I" know that has history with these types of repair is Ebeth(koenigblues). He's done this alot on some of his personal bikes and quite good at all repairs.

Picture 056.jpg

Picture 059.jpg

STP61913.jpg
finished



Last edited by jimmyb865 on Tue May 08, 2012 10:12 am; edited 2 times in total
Ossessionato
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Tue May 08, 2012 9:55 am quote
gnasher wrote:
if you are worried about the strength of the frame and aren't worried about keeping it original.
then a bar welded between the seat and headstock , with or without a small motorcycle tank will make the frame virtually unbreakable..
This is really great advice.
Molto Verboso
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Tue May 08, 2012 9:59 am quote
my request is was out of the intention to destroy the idea that vespas in asia are in perfect condition underneath the paint.
Hooked
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Tue May 08, 2012 10:37 am quote
I did the same thing
My bike was exactly like yours...but now I ride it every day on long rides around town .I love it alot...my frame looked like yours.
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Tue May 08, 2012 10:38 am quote
Right. I do live in Indonesia, and I'm having the work done here. However, I intend to send this bike home to the States (ill-advised or no, I don't care; can't afford one there, and already have some money in here; all-told it'll be about $1,000, including the new paint and body work, by the time it gets home), so I'm not trying to misrepresent anything. Thanks, Jess, for the moderation.

Also, I intend to use this bike in the States (assuming it won't or can be made to not kill me by snapping in half). I certainly do not intend to ship it in order to turn a profit.

Gnasher:
Quote:
then a bar welded between the seat and headstock , with or without a small motorcycle tank will make the frame virtually unbreakable..
I don't think I want to go quite that drastic. I don't care about "original" necessarily, but I'm not trying to ride some weird largeframe SS90 mock-up. The original lines are pretty important to me, but if it needs drastic body work that's not original and doesn't show, I'm happy to own the fact that it's not stock.

tailgate:
Quote:
Your bike doesn't look dangerous... But it is a mess.......get all the rust sanded.
Sound advice. Will do.

Also, the following sounds like VERY sound advice:
Quote:
.reinforce by welding...the rear shock mount....carefully measure the steering neck to. Motor pivot holes distances.......i ncert a long stiff metal rod in the motor pivot holes. Equal lengths on both sides and measure to the steering neck...If one side is longer... Then put a prybar in the neck while yourfatfriend sits on the bike...and star yanking....the Asians do good welding...but they think a jig is an irish dance....they weld and it warps the steering tube
Man, my bahasa Indonesia is not terrible (though it's far from great), but I'm way out of my depth here. Not my everyday vocabulary. Koenig! Minta bantuan, ya, mas?

Typewritist:
Quote:
Asian/unscrupulous seller bodge: welding two frames together at weak stress points
This gets right directly back to my main concern. Is this what has been done here? It doesn't seem to me to be the case, but I'll state yet again that I don't know quite enough about welding these frames to be sure.

JSharp:
Quote:
my request is was out of the intention to destroy the idea that vespas in asia are in perfect condition underneath the paint.
That's totally fair. But since I have a great amount of respect for Southeast Asian folks who keep these bikes on the roads in a fashion they deem safe for the local economy--hell, for themselves and their friends, risk-tolerance here being, admittedly (and no offense intended, Koenig) way higher than in the west, in everything from food safety to ecology to traffic patterns to vehicle maintenance--I'd rather it wait a few days/weeks until the jury is fully out on whether this frame is safe or not, since that's the underlying concern about bodges.

It can go over to the Bodgespotting thread, regardless of the verdict, to show that Southeast Asian frames are not perfect under the paint, but I'd like the verdict--safe or unsafe--to accompany it.

Here's hoping it's deemed safe!
Molto Verboso
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Tue May 08, 2012 10:49 am quote
JJC wrote:
This gets right directly back to my main concern. Is this what has been done here? It doesn't seem to me to be the case, but I'll state yet again that I don't know quite enough about welding these frames to be sure.
That's why I'm hoping Professor Plum will chime in. I trust him on all welding issues on these old bikes.

Replacing a piece in the monocoque frame could make it even stronger than before, that's the beauty of these frames, but done wrong it can make it weaker. That central tunnel is integral to the strength of the frame as opposed to, say, a lambretta that has a tube frame with parts hung off it.
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Tue May 08, 2012 11:02 am quote
Typewritist wrote:
That's why I'm hoping Professor Plum will chime in. I trust him on all welding issues on these old bikes.

Replacing a piece in the monocoque frame could make it even stronger than before, that's the beauty of these frames, but done wrong it can make it weaker. That central tunnel is integral to the strength of the frame as opposed to, say, a lambretta that has a tube frame with parts hung off it.
So, are we talking refabricating the actual center of the frame, or is there some way to insert a tubular piece of metal that wouldn't be visible? Like I said, stock isn't important to me, but keeping the original lines of the bike is, 'cause what's a Vespa without that beautiful shape?
Hooked
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Tue May 08, 2012 11:20 am quote
this is beautiful.. IMO

centre tank back.jpg

centre tank.jpg

Molto Verboso
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Tue May 08, 2012 11:23 am quote
Typewritist wrote:
That's why I'm hoping Professor Plum will chime in. I trust him on all welding issues on these old bikes.

Typewritist.....haven't seen Marc on here since last aug......
Mr. Clean
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Tue May 08, 2012 11:45 am quote
gnasher wrote:
this is beautiful.. IMO
+
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Tue May 08, 2012 11:50 am quote
gnasher wrote:
this is beautiful.. IMO
That is pretty. No doubt about it. But not exactly where I'm trying to go with my first two bikes.

[Yeah, there's another one, but I'm not messing with it for at least a coupla years. Then I might take the paint off. But it cost double what the first one did, and I just bought it after a year and a half of knowing and hanging out with the seller (one of my closer friends here in Indonesia), so when he tells me it belonged to his friend and is pretty close to original, I'll just trust him (with my life) in that case!]
Molto Verboso
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Tue May 08, 2012 12:12 pm quote
Brodyfrompa wrote:
Typewritist wrote:
That's why I'm hoping Professor Plum will chime in. I trust him on all welding issues on these old bikes.

Typewritist.....haven't seen Marc on here since last aug......
Yeah, he's fallen off the boards - may have his PMs hooked up to e-mail him though - hint.

I know he just threw his rally up for sale on scoot.net.
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Tue May 08, 2012 12:29 pm quote
Typewritist wrote:
Yeah, he's fallen off the boards - may have his PMs hooked up to e-mail him though - hint.

I know he just threw his rally up for sale on scoot.net.
As a total noob around here, I don't think I'll bother the guy. But if anyone else wants to...
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Tue May 08, 2012 12:34 pm quote
It's metal...hooray!
These bikes were only spot welded in the Italian factory.....Here is blurry foto... But... I carefully bent some metal rod...bout' the thickness of a pinky finger ...and laid it,inside,on the inner panel seams...then welded the fuck out of it!...mega stability...where no one can see..grind all rust away!!!!.u can not weld rust! And you can not paint rust! Where u weld must be. 100 percent rust free!!!use a grinder...u will get dirty!

Last edited by tailgate on Tue May 08, 2012 1:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tue May 08, 2012 12:47 pm quote
Re: It's metal...hooray!
tailgate wrote:
...and laid it,inside,on the inner panel seams...then welded the fuck out of it!...mega stability...where no one can see..
Man, me included [no one can see]!

Do you mean you ran metal tube inside the center of the frame, where the cables run? Also, I'm not even sure the frame in question needs that kind of help, but if it's possible and it wouldn't hurt, well...

Thanks!
Enthusiast
'74 Vespa Sprint Veloce, '70/'74 Sprint/Sprint Veloce, lookin' for a smallframe...
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 71
Location: Yogyakarta
Tue May 08, 2012 1:09 pm quote
Also, for anyone who might lend some expertise, this weld is the one that's making me the most nervous (maybe wrongly; like I said, eager to learn stuff):



The big triangular patch in the center of the floor is (I think) the one Ebeth (Koenig) was encouraging me to have smoothed out. But this one seems like it would have the most impact on structural integrity.

Thoughts?

Thanks!
JesseJC
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