Fri Mar 11, 2016 7:46 pm
Molto Verboso
Lambretta GP200, Vespa P200e
Joined: 10 Jan 2015
Posts: 1201 Location: United States |
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Molto Verboso
Lambretta GP200, Vespa P200e
Joined: 10 Jan 2015
Posts: 1201 Location: United States |
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1853 Location: UK (South East) |
I'm sure it won't be long till someone is building and selling complete engines using the Pinasco case as a base. I think there is a place for a blueprinted/rubber stamped combination of OEM and aftermarket parts, all buttoned together by people with the correct skills and workshop equipment.
The problem with kits, cranks, exhausts, carbs, gearing etc. is that you never truly know what you're going to end up with. SIP attempts to partially address this with their touring and sports combination kits, but even then, you might be starting with compromised cases, sub-standard sealing pads and varying type, quality and condition of bearings and seals. I can build a good engine over time, but being able to buy an off-the-shelf engine that is built for touring or street racing, with 18bhp, 24bhp or 30bhp (examples) has a certain appeal. Throw in a power (but not speed) guarantee, a warranty, and after sales service and it has some real appeal for those people that just want to ride. Owners of brand new PX125s in the UK spring to mind. |
Sat Mar 12, 2016 6:14 am
Molto Verboso
Lambretta GP200, Vespa P200e
Joined: 10 Jan 2015
Posts: 1201 Location: United States |
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Molto Verboso
Lambretta GP200, Vespa P200e
Joined: 10 Jan 2015
Posts: 1201 Location: United States |
Veni, Vidi, Posti
![]() 74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8165 Location: Victoria, Australia |
Even the Pinasco case has it's problems - which should not happen with a brand new case. Apparently on the rotary cases the clearance from the crank to the rotary pad is twice what the Piaggio or Malossi cases are.
Also they left out the o-ring groove for the kick start... maybe these things will be fixed in subsequent productions. Yes I'm sure there would be a market for complete engines. Difficult to guarantee them as there's no telling if they would be run in correctly or run with the right jets, fuel or oil. But at least things could be optimised properly... not many of us have the cash to go through all the combinations of parts until it's perfect. Just thought - S&S have their engine configurator and sell you the kit of parts. That's probably as close as it gets. |
Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:43 am
Molto Verboso
Lambretta GP200, Vespa P200e
Joined: 10 Jan 2015
Posts: 1201 Location: United States |
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Molto Verboso
Lambretta GP200, Vespa P200e
Joined: 10 Jan 2015
Posts: 1201 Location: United States |
Ginch wrote: Can an Italian reader here please translate what they are saying? I think maybe it's a less expensive version? Cast instead of CNC? https://www.facebook.com/bsgcorse.it/posts/961788540571262 https://www.facebook.com/bsgcorse.it/posts/988820511201398 |
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1853 Location: UK (South East) |
The BSG Corse stuff is very special, but too far removed from a 'proper' Vespa engine for my liking. I know it's precision engineered, very powerful, very imaginative and all that, but the quirks, the unknowns, the often limited budgets and the risks associated with making an old Vespa go fast(er) are all part of the challenge and the fun.
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
![]() 74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8165 Location: Victoria, Australia |
almogavar1969 wrote: Ginch wrote: Can an Italian reader here please translate what they are saying? I think maybe it's a less expensive version? Cast instead of CNC? https://www.facebook.com/bsgcorse.it/posts/961788540571262 https://www.facebook.com/bsgcorse.it/posts/988820511201398 Swa45, I see what you're saying but it's hard not to be overwhelmed by the promise of more power... |
Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:34 pm
Molto Verboso
Lambretta GP200, Vespa P200e
Joined: 10 Jan 2015
Posts: 1201 Location: United States |
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Molto Verboso
Lambretta GP200, Vespa P200e
Joined: 10 Jan 2015
Posts: 1201 Location: United States |
Supposed to be affordable like the new Casa Case for Lambretta with big ass spigot area and bullet 305 ready. And price on that is supposed to be silly cheap below £500.
I've been riding scorer with tuned motors 30 plus years. The only way to fly. Always nice to have power at your disposal. Last edited by almogavar1969 on Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
![]() Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:44 am
Hooked
Tuk Tuk.
Joined: 14 Nov 2014
Posts: 448 Location: Hawaii |
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Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:31 am
Molto Verboso
Lambretta GP200, Vespa P200e
Joined: 10 Jan 2015
Posts: 1201 Location: United States |
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Molto Verboso
Lambretta GP200, Vespa P200e
Joined: 10 Jan 2015
Posts: 1201 Location: United States |
Veloce Vulture wrote: if they can get this far with a standard PX fit, why not ad a VB1 fit? and an aluminum x magnesium alloy is the standard for high heat. PX & VB1 cases nearly identical in size. The size of 305 cylinder is gonna get in way of things along with intake setup. I wouldnt waste time, money and energy putting into a VB1 period. |
Veni, Vidi, Posti
![]() 74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8165 Location: Victoria, Australia |
Ginch wrote: Can an Italian reader here please translate what they are saying? I think maybe it's a less expensive version? Cast instead of CNC? https://www.facebook.com/bsgcorse.it/posts/961788540571262 We are yet to decide to start casting. We have lined up suppliers. We have all the drawings. We have casted some PX crankcases with the aluminum we had. Keeping in mind the need of 70 Kg of aluminum per set this process is quite expensive. The cases you see in the photos have all been fitted with commercially available kit for PX 125/150 and (by relocating the holes) PX 200; 30-62-16 bearings, external seals, 60 crankshaft, 110 piston rod with 55mm wide shoulders and 102mm flywheel. Alternatively we can fit our 305cc kit, 64 crankshaft with a 78mm piston and a top quality 68mm reed valve (goodbye SI). The motor as well as the carburetor (VHSB) seats under the belly. What are your thoughts? Should we start casting a few sets? |
Veni, Vidi, Posti
![]() 74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8165 Location: Victoria, Australia |
Veni, Vidi, Posti
![]() 74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8165 Location: Victoria, Australia |
Ossessionato
![]() 1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 3098 Location: Veria, Greece |
Ossessionato
![]() 1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 3098 Location: Veria, Greece |
Update!!!
On sale, on SIP's site... 5.5k EUR for the main parts (cases, crank, cylinder, exhaust, clutch). Not bad... https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/crankcase+bfa+motori+306+for_78245500 https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/racing+cylinder+bfa+motori+306+_78245600 https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/clutch+bfa+motori+306+motor+_78245900 https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/racing+exhaust+bfa+motori+306+_78245620 https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/crankshaft+bfa+motori+306+_78245800 |
All that tech is super cool...but come on, no 5 (reliable) speed yet? All that time, trouble, and money going into making those cases and no 5 speed? I would have hoped that BFA and DRT could have gotten together to make it happen. Or maybe a 5 speed isn't really needed because the engine has enough torque making a close ratio transmission not needed?
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
![]() 74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8165 Location: Victoria, Australia |
Cheers Safis! I was quoted £9000 for a complete motor with Parmakit ignition and (I assume) carb - it was described as "plug & play".
whodatschrome wrote: Or maybe a 5 speed isn't really needed because the engine has enough torque making a close ratio transmission not needed? The intake is nice... right at the base of the cylinder, with no crank to get in the way. ![]() Oh, and I noticed the price on the Malossi cases, wonder if this is a mistake? Seems incredibly expensive for basically standard cases! https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/crankcase+malossi+standard_57144930 |
Veni, Vidi, Posti
![]() 74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8165 Location: Victoria, Australia |
Today I saw this motor being advertised. 7555 euro for delivery outside of the EU.
https://www.vespmoto.de/bfa-motori-306/english/ ![]() ![]() ![]() The thing that grabbed my attention was this video. The thing sounds like it's hardly working at all! https://youtu.be/g7DzSJwJuo0 |
Molto Verboso
![]() '74 Rally, '72 Sprint
Joined: 30 May 2013
Posts: 1147 Location: Melbourne, London, Durham NC |
Veni, Vidi, Posti
![]() 74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8165 Location: Victoria, Australia |
![]() Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:54 am
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 6234 Location: Nashville |
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Lucky
![]() 76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 6234 Location: Nashville |
bodgemaster
![]() 63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6500 Location: So Cal |
Veni, Vidi, Posti
![]() 74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8165 Location: Victoria, Australia |
chandlerman wrote: At the beginning of the video, I was a little, "Meh, this isn't all that impressive." When he shifted from 3rd up to 4th at about 30 seconds was when my jaw dropped. Check out his site, the Quattrini 260 (!) is half the price and almost as quick. |
![]() Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:47 am
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4365 Location: That bushfire place |
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Ossessionato
![]() 2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4365 Location: That bushfire place |
Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:02 am
Hooked
GS160
Joined: 11 Jun 2014
Posts: 301 Location: Åland |
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![]() Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:44 am
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 6234 Location: Nashville |
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Lucky
![]() 76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 6234 Location: Nashville |
Veni, Vidi, Posti
![]() 74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8165 Location: Victoria, Australia |
BFA 244.
No it's not a 306, but should be way more affordable and no doubt go like stink. What I find impressive is the solution to tiny (compared to motorcycle) transfers with an adaptor plate that changes stud location. Loving the port layout. It's for a standard 200 case and uses a 127mm rod. ![]() |
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1853 Location: UK (South East) |
So this is all about getting the exhaust port wider and/or auxiliary ports added with a stock 200 case, and getting that extra 10-15 hp that Jack always refers to, in order to go beyond the max ~40hp that is achievable with a highly tuned MHR setup?
How would this compare to a Quattrini 260 setup, which uses a 64mm stroke and 127mm rod? I guess this is still limited to the stock 200 stud spacing? |
Veni, Vidi, Posti
![]() 74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8165 Location: Victoria, Australia |
swa45 wrote: I guess this is still limited to the stock 200 stud spacing? You would have to think that this will produce a lot more hp than the Quattrini because the porting design is much more aggressive for a start. Also the Q was designed as a tourer with fairly mild timings I believe. Whereas the BFA 306's "stock" exhaust is an expansion chamber. Think that says something about their design intent. We'll have to wait for a while to see actual numbers, but I imagine this is going to be a good 20% more powerful than the Quattrini. |
Member
2012 GTV 300, 2005 Genuine Stella w/ hack, 1974 Rally 200
Joined: 28 Aug 2011
Posts: 8 Location: Spokane, WA |
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1853 Location: UK (South East) |
Ginch wrote: swa45 wrote: I guess this is still limited to the stock 200 stud spacing? You would have to think that this will produce a lot more hp than the Quattrini because the porting design is much more aggressive for a start. Also the Q was designed as a tourer with fairly mild timings I believe. Whereas the BFA 306's "stock" exhaust is an expansion chamber. Think that says something about their design intent. We'll have to wait for a while to see actual numbers, but I imagine this is going to be a good 20% more powerful than the Quattrini. |
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX172 Quattrini and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3344 Location: London UK |
Looks like someone at BFA reads our forum.
Remember this thread? Cylinder Stud Patterns from 2 years ago? Quote: If someone would just make a P200 cylinder that had short base studs like a small frame 50. Then the cylinder could be anything you wanted it to be. No limits. Not sure the rest of the scooter could handle it though. |
Veni, Vidi, Posti
![]() 74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8165 Location: Victoria, Australia |
swa45 wrote: How would this compare to a Quattrini 260 setup? So for this new 244, that has very similar looking aggressive porting to the 306 (but is a little more restricted in the case transfer area compared to the 306), you'd have to think it would put it in the high 30's at least? And more with an expansion. Jack221 wrote: Looks like someone at BFA reads our forum. Remember this thread? Cylinder Stud Patterns from 2 years ago? Quote: If someone would just make a P200 cylinder that had short base studs like a small frame 50. Then the cylinder could be anything you wanted it to be. No limits. Not sure the rest of the scooter could handle it though. dub97603 wrote: My 306 is currently being built. |
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX172 Quattrini and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3344 Location: London UK |
Ginch wrote: They've done that with the 306 but not this new cylinder Jack. Not that it will hold them back I think! Don't get too hung up on the base transfer size. It's always the exhaust port that's the issue but that's fixed on this. If this BFA244 becomes widely available it could easily be the most powerful for the stock cases. |
Veni, Vidi, Posti
![]() 74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8165 Location: Victoria, Australia |
No I get what you mean, it's not the separately bolted base flange that's important, it's the pattern itself. Which as you say is fixed.
There's certainly no reason it won't be widely available as SIP are their manufacturer/sales partner now. It's only cost that will hold us back... the Quattrini cylinder at SIP is 576 euro, and the BFA 225 (probably the closest comparison currently) is 1162 euro. |
![]() Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:02 am
Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 2928 Location: Rochester, Minnesota |
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Ossessionato
![]() 2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 2928 Location: Rochester, Minnesota |
Veni, Vidi, Posti
![]() 74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8165 Location: Victoria, Australia |
Christopher_55934 wrote: Someone should make that adapter plate to put a Malossi 210 on the smaller 150 case. I wonder how it would run. It wouldn't be perfect but you could port the 150 case out a reasonable amount and get better air flow than a factory 200. https://scooterlab.uk/jg-vespa-200-cylinder-conversion-for-the-px125-feature/ 200 cylinder for 150 case |
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