Thu May 23, 2019 4:26 pm

Ossessionato
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 61 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80,90 V5N 50, 01 ET2, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
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Ossessionato
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 61 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80,90 V5N 50, 01 ET2, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
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Location: Oceanside, CA
Thu May 23, 2019 4:26 pm linkquote
So a friends Non Vietnamese VBB that used to run fine, ended up with the clutch woodruff key jammed in the gears about a month after he changed the clutch. It must have been sitting in there a while but he came to a skidding halt. I got the motor and tore it apart to find out what it was. Rebuilt the motor with a new shift cross, seals, gaskets and fired it up. It had this bang, bang, bang noise coming out of it. Tore it all apart again. Scratched my head a bunch and here's where I'm at.

-Removed and reinstalled the old shift cross. No change in the sound
-inspected all the teeth of the gears. Nothing nicked or broken.
-noticed a small nick on the inside of third gear. He jammed in third and slid to a stop.
-inspected all the teeth on the primary drive. Can't see anything
-Inspected all the teeth on the cush drive. Dont see anything.
-Removed and reinstalled the clutch with a new woodruff key.
-Removed the clutch cover and pressure plate.
-Removed the rear tire and hub
-Removed the head, cylinder and exhaust during initial rebuild. New piston rings only.
-Kickstart cog inspected. Nothing and reinstalled. Makes the noise even if the kickstart lever is engaged.
-side loaded the crank by pushing on it from the flyside.

After all that and probably more that I forgot, it still makes this banging noise. Watch this video and you'll hear it. Its a little faster than once a second. It used to go away in neutral but now its all the time in every gear.

Anyone ever come across this one?
Thu May 23, 2019 7:39 pm

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX180 Quattrini and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3355
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX180 Quattrini and some motorbikes
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Thu May 23, 2019 7:39 pm linkquote
Sounds like gearbox. Does the tapping noise stop if you pull the clutch in? How about when holding in clutch and in gear?
⬆️    About 1 month elapsed between posts    ⬇️
Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:34 pm

Ossessionato
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 61 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80,90 V5N 50, 01 ET2, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
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Ossessionato
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Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:34 pm linkquote
So the problem was definitely gears. Jack you nailed it and sorry I didn't respond. I had to leave for 3 weeks for work so the project sat. Once it was in a running stage, I ran it and squeezed the clutch and the noise went away no matter what gear it was in. It didn't have a wheel installed so I couldn't roll rear it.

Interestingly enough though, there were no broken teeth. I had 4 sets of eyes look the gear cluster and the primary and other than a small indent, nothing was broken.

The owner priced out gears and said screw it and decided to spend money on everything else (rear axle, rear seal, rear bearing, selector side axle bearing, new kickstart cog, Cush drive rebuild). He's going to live with the clicking until something breaks or it goes away.
Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:10 pm

Banned
2001 LML 150 2t
Joined: 16 Jul 2017
Posts: 382
Location: Queensland, Aus
 
Banned
2001 LML 150 2t
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Posts: 382
Location: Queensland, Aus
Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:10 pm linkquote
19 secs into that video.. is that the g'box drain hole?
Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:14 pm

Ossessionato
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 61 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80,90 V5N 50, 01 ET2, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
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Ossessionato
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Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:14 pm linkquote
Yes
Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:17 pm

Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, PX200(ish...), US 50 Special in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 476
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
 
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, PX200(ish...), US 50 Special in progress
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Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:17 pm linkquote
Reckon that's it



⬆️    About 7 months elapsed between posts    ⬇️
Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:00 am

Ossessionato
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 61 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80,90 V5N 50, 01 ET2, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
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Ossessionato
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Location: Oceanside, CA
Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:00 am linkquote
Ok so I went back and forth the last few months. I got two different cush drives and had more people look at parts and no one could find anything wrong.

Eventually I got the idea to spin the rear axle with a drill so I could watch the gear cluster since the cases were open. I narrowed down the noise to a bad second gear and eventually right to the general problem area. Its hard to see but theres a small crack forming in the gear tooth and that was all it took to make that noise.

Massimo hooked me up with a new gear and I installed it and confirmed with the drill spinning that the noise went away.

The owner said lets have some fun and for Christmas bought the two port bolt on Pinasco 177 kit, the pinasco clutch spring/ cups pack, a 24/24 carb and a SIP Road 2.0. We opened up the airbox for the 24/24 carb but right now its running great with the stock points flywheel @ 18*BTDC. I started the main jet at a 110 and it ran great. Kept going up in points to a 128 and the owner says he feels no difference wide open. Will confirm with a CHT soon.

So that wraps up my saga. Glad to finally have this head scratcher behind me.



Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:50 am

Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
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Location: Veria, Greece
 
Ossessionato
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Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:50 am linkquote
You're so lucky you got it on time, Malcolm. A friend of mine wasn't with his PX200. A tooth from the "christmas tree" broke (3rd gear), got wedged between the cases and the 1st gear and cracked his cases. Thankfully the pieces fell when he reached home and we were able to weld them back...















Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:21 am

Ossessionato
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 61 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80,90 V5N 50, 01 ET2, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
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Ossessionato
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Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:21 am linkquote
Hot damn that's some carnage! Glad you were able to save those cases.

This whole experience has been an interesting one. Next time I told this guy to just pay me to fix his stuff next time.

For now the old gear is going on my wall of shame next to the other bizarre motors I've worked on.
Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:30 am

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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bodgemaster
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Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:30 am linkquote
Good sleuthing. Now I know what to look for next time I crack the yellow rocket open. It has the same click.
Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:27 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
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Location: Tega Cay, SC
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:27 pm linkquote
So what was the final jetting on the project MJ? I have a slightly used Pinasco 2-port kit that I traded for and was planning on using it on the 66 Sprint with a 20/20 carb, rather than the 20/17 that came with it.
Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:27 pm

Ossessionato
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 61 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80,90 V5N 50, 01 ET2, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
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Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:27 pm linkquote
Tierney wrote:
So what was the final jetting on the project MJ? I have a slightly used Pinasco 2-port kit that I traded for and was planning on using it on the 66 Sprint with a 20/20 carb, rather than the 20/17 that came with it.
So we went with a 24/24, air box matched to the carb. No inlet porting. Stock starter and idle jets, air filter heart drilled. Started with a 110 main jet and kept increasing it to see if there came a point where it was too rich. Ran out of jets with a 128 installed So, I'm making the owner break in the motor and then I'll do some CHT runs to figure out the best main jet for you.
Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:15 am

Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1433
Location: California
 
Molto Verboso
Vespa
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Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:15 am linkquote
Wow nice find
Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:37 am

Ossessionato
P208 Stock Ported Stroker, Stella VMC Stelvio 187, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T
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Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:37 am linkquote
wow. good thing to be aware of in the future! those things are so chunky I didn't think an epic failure like that was possible.
⬆️    About 2 years elapsed between posts    ⬇️
Sat Feb 05, 2022 6:20 pm

Addicted
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Sat Feb 05, 2022 6:20 pm linkquote
Have a similar sound here.
Went on an uphill WOT plug chop run. Shifted backwards! Dyslectic style.

Opened the cases. Very small piece of the cruciform found. Not enough to make this light sleigh-bell rattling sound.

All gear teeth are perfect. Primary gear teeth perfect. What am I missing?
Can enough smashed cush springs make this sound?

About to just replace the cruciform and see how that goes. Any advice appreciated.
Sat Feb 05, 2022 6:34 pm

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
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Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
 
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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Sat Feb 05, 2022 6:34 pm linkquote
I've had one where the cush had smoked the springs and sheared some bits and had a funny sound when running. so give it a shake and see? this was just general neglect.

also had one break a cross from a missed shift and somehow wax the cush bearing. don't know if it was from shock load due to everything stopping quickly or what. but same thing, all the gears and teeth checked out fine, just had noise while running. chased my ass on that one real good.

iirc, you're running a pretty stout clutch so I wouldn't worry on that side. but a damaged or loose basket can make some real interesting noises.

good luck!
Sat Feb 05, 2022 6:54 pm

Ossessionato
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 61 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80,90 V5N 50, 01 ET2, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
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Ossessionato
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Sat Feb 05, 2022 6:54 pm linkquote
Ray,

Still have the cases open? Spin the axle with a drill and see if you can narrow down the problem area.
Sat Feb 05, 2022 7:22 pm

Molto Verboso
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
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Location: northern New York
 
Molto Verboso
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Sat Feb 05, 2022 7:22 pm linkquote
I once had a cruciform break and jam the gears solid. When it was put back together it made a constant knocking sound but otherwise ran fine. It turned out to be a bent drive shaft.
Sat Feb 05, 2022 7:31 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
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Location: california
 
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Sat Feb 05, 2022 7:31 pm linkquote
Quote:
Dyslectic style.
hahah!
Oh man - have been there.
What a gut wrenching feeling to turn the shifter the wrong way.
Like MJ's spin it with a drill.
See if you can create the sound.
I'll keep that one for my own diagnosis the next time I find myself there.
Perhaps you can also spin the clutch so it spins the xmas tree - see if you can find Rudolf.
Keep us posted.
Sun Feb 06, 2022 8:36 am

Ossessionato
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Sun Feb 06, 2022 8:36 am linkquote
I once found a bit of metal wedged between the gears. Pretty sure it was soo wedged that it was acknowledged & left there, never caused a problem... but i have the odd issue with metal components


No wonder the clutch was slipping!


Crank was also slipping!


As was the flywheel

Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:03 am

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Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:03 am linkquote
MJRally wrote:
Ray,

Still have the cases open? Spin the axle with a drill and see if you can narrow down the problem area.
I do. Gears and clutch are out. I'll pick up a new cruciform and do your your drill test with everything together.
Thanks!
Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:17 am

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Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:17 am linkquote
greasy125 wrote:
I've had one where the cush had smoked the springs and sheared some bits and had a funny sound when running. so give it a shake and see? this was just general neglect.

also had one break a cross from a missed shift and somehow wax the cush bearing. don't know if it was from shock load due to everything stopping quickly or what. but same thing, all the gears and teeth checked out fine, just had noise while running. chased my ass on that one real good.

iirc, you're running a pretty stout clutch so I wouldn't worry on that side. but a damaged or loose basket can make some real interesting noises.

good luck!
Thanks!
I have the "little brother" version of the BGM superstrong clutch, rated up to 15hp. This may not take distracted backward-shifters into account. Going to take a better look before doing MJ's test.
Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:22 am

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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bodgemaster
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Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:22 am linkquote
Gearbox will click if it needs shimming. Check the endplay.
Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:23 am

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Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:23 am linkquote
charlieman22 wrote:
hahah!
Oh man - have been there.
What a gut wrenching feeling to turn the shifter the wrong way.
Like MJ's spin it with a drill.
See if you can create the sound.
I'll keep that one for my own diagnosis the next time I find myself there.
Perhaps you can also spin the clutch so it spins the xmas tree - see if you can find Rudolf.
Keep us posted.
It's a thing.
Fuel tap too.
Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:54 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
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Lucky
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Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:54 am linkquote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Gearbox will click if it needs shimming. Check the endplay.
Or if you forget the thrust washer under the clutch, especially when you roll it backwards.
Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:17 am

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Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:17 am linkquote
Okay, replaced the criciform, installed the gears, took the clutch apart no issues, spun the primary with a drill to see if I could get a rattle. No sound.

Went to do MJRally's spin test with a non-impact drill and the nut came loose with maybe 10ft lbs.
Bearing fail?
Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:19 am

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Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:19 am linkquote
*Cotter pin was ok. Removed it to fit the drill.
Fri Feb 11, 2022 11:38 am

Ossessionato
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 61 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80,90 V5N 50, 01 ET2, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
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Fri Feb 11, 2022 11:38 am linkquote
Ray, pull the clutch so there's not too much drag and spin the drill so the nut tightens on itself. You don't need to get the drill rip roaring for the noise to start showing itself. Since there's just the drag from the Cush drive, youre not gonna damage anything on the rear axle. Worst thing is you might need to impact it the nut off when you're done.

Worked just fine for me and no problems after the fact.
Tue Feb 22, 2022 5:04 pm

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Tue Feb 22, 2022 5:04 pm linkquote
MJRally wrote:
Ray, pull the clutch so there's not too much drag and spin the drill so the nut tightens on itself. You don't need to get the drill rip roaring for the noise to start showing itself. Since there's just the drag from the Cush drive, youre not gonna damage anything on the rear axle. Worst thing is you might need to impact it the nut off when you're done.

Worked just fine for me and no problems after the fact.
Okay, found the issue.
Bearing was shot. Abrasion marks on the face and inside the inner race. Bearing grinds while rotated by finger. Axle slides freely in the bearing. No clue as to how that could happen.

Tried to maybe find a speck of cruciform by blowing brake cleaner through it into a white styrofoam box
I'm getting old.

MJ spin test like butter with a new steel-sealed bearing and FA crankshaft (comes with a lusso nut end*).
*affords one the opportunity to toss another castle nut

Closing the cases tomorrow and giving it a road spin.
⬆️    About 4 months elapsed between posts    ⬇️
Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:49 am

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Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:49 am linkquote
Following up.

So I took it for a spin. The rattle was gone, but there remained a light but constant click sound in 1st and second. Rode it for a few months no other issues.

Opened it up again. Gears were shimmed correctly. Two springs in the primary were broken and the bearing was shot.

When rotating(new bearing) with the smaller half off and engine facing down in a vice, one tooth on the cluster would hang-up slightly against the 1st gear cog. All teeth were in perfect shape, so I wrote it off to being out of tolerance with the weight of the driveshaft against it and the shafts not being seated in the small half. Still, it was that one same tooth that hung

Rode again with rebuilt primary and new bearing. Still clicking!
Clicks in 1st, nothing in neutral, less in 2nd, barely in 3rd, nothing in 4th.
Clutch pulled no difference.

Any suggestions?
Just replace the cluster? Replace the shaft as well?
Transmission took about as hard a hit as possible. Shifted backwards, 3rd to 2nd WOT uphill
Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:01 am

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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bodgemaster
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Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:01 am linkquote
Can you post a vid or a soundclip?
Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:59 pm

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Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:59 pm linkquote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Can you post a vid or a soundclip?
Sure.
In the middle I'm rolling in neutral with the clutch pulled.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/5L-nsCD8TYg
Thu Jun 16, 2022 5:29 pm

Ossessionato
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 61 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80,90 V5N 50, 01 ET2, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
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Thu Jun 16, 2022 5:29 pm linkquote
I can't hear anything too specific. Can you kill the ignition and coast while recording?
Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:11 pm

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Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:11 pm linkquote
MJRally wrote:
I can't hear anything too specific. Can you kill the ignition and coast while recording?
Now that I hear it on my laptop, I see what you mean. Played on my phone through earbuds the clicks are pretty clear, especially during the first and last few seconds.

I'll post another tomorrow, coasting.

Ordered a cush drive and spindle from Scooter Mercado. Unfortunately, the only supplier of the 12-16-20-25 is India.
Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:36 pm

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Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:36 pm linkquote
Ray - I can hear it.
Any a chance the kick start gear is involved/damaged?
Is the kick start lever in any way lower by a hair than it should be?
Just sounds like the tips of the gear might be engaging in some way.
Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:45 pm

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Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:45 pm linkquote
charlieman22 wrote:
Ray - I can hear it.
Any a chance the kick start gear is involved/damaged?
Is the kick start lever in any way lower by a hair than it should be?
Just sounds like the tips of the gear might be engaging in some way.
I think you nailed it, Ned.

Replaced the kick start gear with a PX one I had on the shelf after this first happened. Didn't realize the 12 tooth P kick start gears aren't the same(?).

Video below:
Rolling off in 2nd downhill, then 3rd, 2nd, neutral, 1st, then back to neutral.
The clicks trail off into neutral, especially at the end.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/3btBmLXwIqY
Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:58 pm

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Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:58 pm linkquote
Yeah can hear the clipping noise…

Your gearbox oil should be very glittery now.

Good you have a lead on the problem
Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:20 pm

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Location: Los Angeles
 
Addicted
Joined: 29 Nov 2020
Posts: 979
Location: Los Angeles
Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:20 pm linkquote
MJRally wrote:
I can't hear anything too specific. Can you kill the ignition and coast while recording?
New pocket video posted below.
Thanks so much for the suggestion. Hearing it now says a lot.
If it's just an incorrect kickstart gear I'd be really happy.

*There's some distortion with a helicopter overhead. The clicks are also not nearly as loud by ear. No clicks on the bench using a drill to spin gearing, 2 separate times.
Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:43 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 3212
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 3212
Location: california
Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:43 pm linkquote
Blind squirrel:nut
Maybe someone can comment on your insight on p gear?

Will be interested to hear what the root cause of it engaging if it turns out to be the gear.
Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:04 pm

Addicted
Joined: 29 Nov 2020
Posts: 979
Location: Los Angeles
 
Addicted
Joined: 29 Nov 2020
Posts: 979
Location: Los Angeles
Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:04 pm linkquote
108 wrote:
Yeah can hear the clipping noise…

Your gearbox oil should be very glittery now.

Good you have a lead on the problem
Thanks.
Just drained it. No glitter. Nothing magnetic in it either.
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