Modern Vespa

Apt

Gosh Voodoo - thanks.

So I got all the cables replaced and just need to make that dang speedo mount. Revision A, or the prototype didn't work, because of the shifter and throttle wires banged into the mount, and I couldn't attach the clamshell headset. Rev. B is going to work perfectly. Well, that's the theory anyway.


I found this on the net, when I was trying to find the type of mount I needed to secure the speedo in the clamshell headset.

So I made this out of a piece of aluminum threshold I had laying around

Unfortunately it doesn't fit properly, and the throttle and shifter tubes get in the way.

Here are the cables that are being replaced.

I got the speedo mount made. Third times a charm. I used an old piece of garage door opener angle iron and it holds the speedo in and clears the cables nicely. Now all I need is the gears at the lower end and I'll be able to tell how slow I'm going. Ha!

I did get back on the road and went through the neighborhood, making sure the cables are working properly. Under heavy load 2nd wants to jerk a bit. Now that I'm typing this, I think it's the clutch slipping. I've got some serious inclines in the neighborhood.

Regardless, when the rain stops I'll take her into town for a cruise.


The angle iron I used, Rev B, and Rev C (final version) holding in the speedo!

This is looking in where the headlight goes. You can see the speedo and the new mount clear the throttle and shifter tubes

Today was the official day I took B62 for a ride through town. She ran fantastic - still sounds like a box of rocks when the revs are low, but rode wonderfully. I stopped a few times and went down to the boardwalk for some fresh picked fruit. I also took it out for about two miles of WOT on flatland. I didn't have my phone so I don't know how fast I was going. No matter.

Now I feel comfortable riding her into town (which consists of going over the bridge) so I can use it for running errands and the like. I'm super stoked!!!!


The local fruit stand

The harbor and boardwalk

Congrats on the maiden run in town on B62 -- that's a great feeling, and the bike is looking sweet. I really dig the seat.

I like the way you've secured your shopping bag, too. I often use my '64 VBB as a grocery getter, but mostly I pick up only what I can fit into the left side cowl box (which is a lot!).

Fantastic - as long as your wife/girlfriend/both don't mind the breeze coming under the door from the missing threshold, or the now defunct garage door, all is well.

Damn it looks good. Kinda like the scuff on motor side cowl - like a scar on a solid jaw line.

Someone's gonna need a disc brake/shock/ and a cyl kit?

Thanks ZZ - yeah, the ole bag on the bars trick - holds a fair amount, along with the side cowl. And Thanks CM - I like the scars too. I've got plenty - a little character. As far as engine/brakes/shocks - I've been giving this lots of thought after yesterdays ride.

First off, its a VA11T (Allstate) or a VNB1T (Vespa). Engine number VNB2M 077208. It doesn't look like it's ever been opened. And I'm almost positive it's a 2 port because the exhaust mounting bolt doesn't go through the swingarm.

There are many ways I can go with this beauty. I want to go the best bang for the buck, unless there's a better way.

There is WhoDat's way: 10" conversion/p200/semi disc brake. I want to keep the 8's though.

There is Hodge's way: 2 port 150cc, 20/20 carb (thx Voodoo!), p125x performance exhaust. This keeps the 3 speed intact, just wakes it up. Inexpensive - I like this fact.

There is the 177cc kits, weld, or JBWeld the cases, cut a third port, new crank (may need one anyway if it's a bushing type, which it probably is...).

One other option: buy a 150cc, 3 port, add kit, and modify gearing to suit.

I'm researching past threads of everyone's to see which way I want to go. Actually, read for hours last night. Regardless, I do know I want the 12v conversion - variable timing and reliable lighting.

Suspension/brakes wise, I want to put an adjustable shock on the back, and add a shock to the front, and maybe a stiffer spring. I don't know what that looks like yet though. New hub and weld tab on the fork, or whole new fork with hub.

And as far as exhausts - I'll probably bang in the side so I don't scrape it or do like the magical Voodoo and shorten the neck and redrill the mounting point to tuck it up under a bit more.

If y'all have any links I should read, please add them here. I'd love to read them and glean whatever I can. But I'm kinda thick, so there is no way I can sponge this up like CM. It takes me much, much longer to process.

I bought a NOS TS pipe from Bar Italia in Los Angeles for my '65 Allstate. The owner, Kristian, recommended it and I've had no ground clearance problems. It already had a 150 top end at that time. Since then I've gone with a Pinasco 2-port 177 kit and 20/20 carb. It seems as fast as my P200 with a Pinasco 215 kit. Although mine is a 4-speed.

Thanks for the info MeMtnBike! I appreciate it.

Great work on the scooter Scott. You've done a fantastic job.

I'm enjoying that seat, too. I'm short enough that it fits me fine. BTW, here's an original seat that should go well with your blue scooter, Scott. He says its for an widebody 60's vespa but there were no wide body vespas in the 60's. The seat latch looks like the same for a regular large frame. I'm sure you can do some nice needle work to this seat to get it back to original.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3379624122055588&set=g.1594110997469452&type=1&ifg=1

I have opted for the following:

A 24/63 primary drive gear combination
A late PX150EFL standard gearbox
A 3.50 x 8 rear tire size
Scootopia big bore exhaust

New crank, piston and barrel. 12 vBMG 120 stator and a BGM wiring loom.

I got this information using this:

https://www.scooterhelp.com/cgi-bin/vespa.gear.calc.pl

Not cheap, but a good and reliable upgrade. 12v with very bright lights.

Thanks for the kind words and encouragement Rowdy! And the seat link. I've got a frame on it's way to me from V oodoo via WhoDat. Now to get it from Portland to Florence. I'll happen.

And thank you for explaining your setup TimtheMod. It's very much appreciated and I'll check out Scooterhelp pertaining to gear ratios....

Thank you Auntie!

So I couldn't get B-62 started. Finally pulled the plug and it was nice and wet so it's not fuel related. So here's what I did....

1) Put the plug against the case and kicked it over a bunch. No spark...
2) Pulled the Flywheel and replaced the condensor. It's a pain in the ass, you've got to remove the stator and resnake the wires through the case. Well, not that much of a pain in the ass, but kind of.
3) Read about static timing in the original manual, and here: https://www.scooterhelp.com/tips/timing/points.timing.html
4) Set up the timing wheel and figured out where TDC was then 26 degrees BTDC and marked it on the flywheel.
5) The only problem is the flywheel doesn't have holes in it so you can adjust the points. I had to remove the flywheel outer, so I just removed it after I had it in position.
6) Then I set the points - they were almost closed - way below the .011 to .019 range. I set it at .017
7) Put the flywheel back on and grounded the plug and gave it a gentle kick.
8) Spark! Yesyesyes! Back in business.

So now I'm putting the shroud back on and putting away the tools. I ran out of time tonight to do all that so I'll finish up tomorrow. Then we'll see if I got the timing and points set properly.

I did a lousy job on the picture front, so if you have any questions on how I did anything, just ask.


Setting the timing wire.

So this is actually 26 degrees BTDC. I pulled the flywheel and set the points with the feeler gauge. No pic though. Dooohhh!

I checked the compression and am getting 80psi. Not bad, but not what I'd like. What do I expect, the engine doesns't look like it's ever been opened.


Last edited by qascooter on Fri, 27 Sep 2019 05:11:59 +0000; edited 1 time

1. You have PM in a few minutes about the other stuff. Cliff's: Quick set of new rings gapped right, honing the bore good removing most of the mess & leaving a nice crosshatch. Alert: can work wonders or make little difference but it is cheap. And no motor pulling to get the cylinder off

2. "2) Pulled the Flywheel and replaced the distributor. It's a pain in the ass, you've got to remove the stator and resnake the wires through the case. Well, not that much of a pain in the ass, but kind of."

How cool is that? You have one of those fantastically rare old nearly unknown Vespas that came w/ a distributor. Trust, but verify when in doubt, so you got any pics?

Condensor - Hahaha. I'm tired...I fixed it...

And thanks for that. I may just do the quick hone, and rings. Can't hurt. But I may be putting in that 150cc cylinder soon, so......

So with the new condenser, I got the engine started. It took a while and some bump-starting to finally get it to run. Which is how it was before.

I put the timing light on it and ... nothing ... Timing light isn't working, so I made a static light to time it.

The static timing light is basically a bulb that goes bright or dim depending on if the points are closed or opened. I got the diagram from these instructions: https://www.scooterhelp.com/tips/timing/points.timing.html.

After I hooked it up everything was wonky. Nothing lined up - huh?!? So I went back to the beginning and found TDC. Turns out I was 5 degrees off with that!

Then the next bone-headed maneuver was that I made marks on the flywheel not the case. No big deal except when you go to mark the 26 degree BTDC mark. I read Counter Clockwise, but if the marks are on the flywheel, they need to be marked Clockwise.

Now that I set the timing marks correct I proceed to move the stator clockwise or counterclockwise and see what the static tester did. After three or four moves I got the light to go jusdimt when the timing mark hit 26 degrees BTDC. 26 is what the timing wheel specifies.

And it turns out the timing initially was pretty far off! more like 18 degrees. The stator used to be over to one end of the the adjustment and now it's about in the middle of it's adjustment range I didn't get to start it up tonight because I ran out of time. But tomorrow I'm hoping that it's going to kick over easily, now that the timing is more in line... One can always choose to be optimistic.


The newly marked TDC and 26 degrees BTDC on the flywheel

What the light looks like at TDC

The light changes at exactly 26 degrees BTDC

You weren't the first to make that goof, and won't be the last.

It's kind of a glass half full glass half empty thing. I personally mark TDC on the flywheel and put the timing mark CC from TDC on the case. But it works either way as long as you get the direction right.

And in a pinch you can use the fins to get in the ballpark ... 360/16 = 22.5°!

Glad you got it sorted.

Thanks SoCal. I felt like Chris Farley on SNL when he was interviewing Paul McCartney - Stupid, stupid!!!!

So it starts up much easier now, and sounds better too. Like a small bag of rocks and not a big bag of rocks! Haha. I wonder if the timing being off at 16~18 degrees instead of the prescribed 26 degrees had an effect on frying the condenser. Also the points being adjusted far below the .011 described.

Regardless, Now that I've got the points and timing set, I'm going to ride it around this way (in between the rain spells) and see how it does. And when it's raining for a spell, I'll take the head and cylinder off and inspect.

Wow Scott , you are such an inspiration. Sjanuary recommended I come take a look see about your painting gun as I too will be wanting to do some painting as well. I started from the beginning and was so impressed you made it past the welding, I too just started into Mig welding and I'm totally enjoying it working on my little bodge. You sir have found a terrific little project and the way you jumped into painting and first looks is so impressive. I haven't came across the make or specifics yet , all I've picked up is you purchased the small touchup gun and took SoCalGuys suggestion for the adding hardener. Ok I'm going to read on, so stoaked here.

uh huh made it to your mentioning of gun and specifics.

Thank you Lynn! But what you're doing, I'd never attempt! Replacing the floor?!? That takes some serious huevos......

As far as painting, it's all in the gun spray and practice without spraying anything, to get the distance and angle correct. At least that helped me when it came time to lay down the paint. And making painting sound effects too while you're practicing so you don't feel so lame. Ha!

Thanks again!

I'm just stubborn that way, doing the floor is for my own satisfaction, may even be a past mid life crisis thingy.

My next step now is to find a paint gun.

I'm finally going to update the front end on B-62! I've been busy on other projects. Why are scooter projects so much more satisfying?

I removed the headset, then the brake cable. Loosened the steering nut with a set of channel locks, being careful not to muck it up, then dropped the fork.

Disassembled the front hub / axle and compared it to the Bajaj swing arm that Voodoo so kindly sent me. There looks like a discrepancy in the length of the pin that holds the back of the brakes and the spring in place.

I sent off an email to David at ScooterMercato about the pin/rod/whatever it's called.

Now it's time to clean up the parts and place an order!

Oh, I also replaced the legshield trim while I had the headset suspended. The original one I installed was about an inch short of fitting under the floor trim. I mentioned it to David and he sent me out a longer version, which has been sitting, waiting for me to install. I FINALLY got to it and can now return the tool I borrowed to help install said leg trim....


Let's drop that front end, shall we?

Pulled the headset bolt

Disconnected the brake cable and moved the whole scooter forward on the lift

Now I can suspend the headset and drop the fork and tire right off the edge of the lift

Bunjee'd up the headset

Then took the channel locks to the fork nut. I'd use the tool, but I've got the headset in the way...

And out comes the fork!

I put the fork/wheel/hub on the operating table and proceeded to take it apart.

I love this stuff. I used it to help in the process of loosening up those tiny rusted nuts and bolts that hold on the fender

The bottom race - I used this chisel, and a few other implements to work around the race, bit by bit, until it finally loosened up and came off the fork.

I won't bore you with removing the spring pin, axle, etc. This is the concern: See how the bolt is set down within the outer edge - the new swingarm doesn't do this which means the brake/spring pin won't fit into the new swingarm.

I forgot, the legtrim. Here are some pics...


Some tools of the install

Strapped it in place while I crimp it. Kinky....

Voila - Installed and crimped into place

And it's long enough to go under the floor rails. Now to get another cap rivet.

This is the main tool. It helped immensely to "roll" the outer edge and smoothen out any hiccups on the trim...Thanks for the loan David!

Not to be a d*ck, but the leggy trim is not supposed to go under the floor rail. This only happens on the P series scoots, maybe the T5 too, not sure

Well F*&K! Now you tell me! Ha! Damnit!!!! Shaking my head.....

Wow that looks amazing legshield trim looks professional. Really like the color too.

I have enjoyed following the restoration of your 1962 Allstate. You are doing great work. I too have an old 1963 Allstate which I partially restored several years ago. I put on a 150 cc upper cylinder kit, new fuel tank, fuel tap and line, and 20/20SI carb. All went well but it was the front fork that gave me the most problems. I have written extensively about what I did and posted it in this forum. Seeing what you are now doing with your front fork, here are a few comments that may help you.

I ended up trashing all the India parts that I had purchased, they were junk. I used my original fork, race and bearings as they were superior to the India parts. I welded the upper bracket on the fork for the damper and painted it. I used an FA Italia swing arm I got at Scooter Mercato and fit it with high quality sealed bearings from Japan. I also used a new Stoffis spring. Using the original fork allowed for a perfect fitment for the fender (which was not the case with the India fork). After reassembly, the bike rides great (perhaps a little firm for some) and handles very well.

Below are some photos from my front-end project. My advice it to use quality parts. Your old Allstate will be the better for it and you will ride with confidence. Later, I put on aluminum tubeless rims and tires for safety. Good luck with your restoration and I will look forward to seeing your results.


Upper damper bracket which was welded to the original fork.

Painted original fork with welded damper bracket.

New FA Italia swing arm.

Original upper bearing installed.

Finished front fork with damper and Stoffis spring.

Very Nice RB - Thanks for posting! I remember your build and checked it out a few times. I plan on utilizing the original fork also. David is in the process of procuring the bracket to weld on the fork, then I'm placing an order.

Do you remember what you did about the pin that holds the spring and back side of the brakes? I don't see it available on ScooterMercato website and it looks like the FA Italia swingarm will need the longer pin...

Well crap, sorry man, did not want to throw a wrench into gears. You are doing a fantastic job.

Oh man - the hanging of the front end and having bike elevated is a genius means to making this more enjoyable. That fork is not only heavy - it's just plain awkward with the wheel on it and greased bearings. Lookin' great - and I imagine this will have a significant effect on ride enjoyment. ^So tru.

Haha - It's all good Tierney! Live and learn!

And thanks Hibbert - the rolly tool makes the front edge nice and smooth.

CM - I can't take the credit for the fork idea - that's either Voodoo's or on the Tips and Tricks thread: Random tricks, share your best little tips & shortcuts.

It's great how we can learn from everyone else's process and incorporate what works for our needs.

Gascooter wrote "Do you remember what you did about the pin that holds the spring and back side of the brakes? I don't see it available on ScooterMercato website and it looks like the FA Italia swingarm will need the longer pin... "

I used the following parts that I got from Scooter Mercato:

Suspension front pivot kit $25
http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Pivot-Kits-and-Axles/O73677

Suspension spring axle kit $36
http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Pivot-Kits-and-Axles?search=Suspension+spring+axle+kit

You will also need the spring that holds the two axles pins in place. These are available in most scooter mail order stores. I also used a new modern axle which allowed the sealed bearing to slide farther up the axle. Don't forget the little spacer that goes on the end of the axle.

Below are some photos of my Allstate front fork modification.


Sealed bearing installed in new FA Italia swing arm.

Suspension spring axle installed in swing arm.

Oil seal installed in swing axle. I used this to keep the bearing area clean.

Spring clip holding the two axles in place on the swing arm.

Stoffis spring installed to spring axle.

Damper pin in slot of swing arm.

Bottom view of spring axle installed in swing arm.

New axle installed in swing arm. New brake shoes were also installed.

New axle on right showing the sealed bearing position on the shaft.

This: http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Bits/75604

That's the problem using a Sprint/
Super/Rally link on an original VNB/VBB. You have to change all the hardware. I think that later link started with the last VNB6/VBB2 and transitioned to the Sprint/Super/Rally/Bajaj.

Hey! Great to see this I just bought an Allstate built in 59 but registered as a 62. The previous owner disassembled it to paint it and the body shop said why paint it's on great condition. 12 years later it's still apart. I am. It sure where to start so this thread is helpful. The guy said the everything worked. And I have all the parts and even two books on how to rebuild Vespas 😂
He only got to chapter 1

Tierney is correct about the leg shield trim not going under the floor rail. My original 63 Allstate shows how the leg shield trim goes (see photo below). But I like the way Gascooter ran his trim. It looks much better. I would guess that the trim on the old Allstate scooters was shortened to save money.

On a different note, here is a photo showing that little axle spacer. This item is necessary for proper alignment of the front axle.

Lastly, Gascooter said his compression was just 85 psi. After I installed the 150 cc kit on my 63 Allstate, I got just 70 psi. However, the bike starts with just one or two kicks and has good power and torque. The low compression has never bothered me.


Original leg shield trim on 63 Allstate.

Spacer attached to new front axle.

Compression check of new 150 cc top end on 1963 Allstate.

Dangit! I was hoping to save some cash and use most of the hardware, but comparing the two swingarms, I see it's not possible. And I just cleaned everything up so nice. I wonder if I could still use the grease fitting - the rubber seals are shot, but the brass fitting is in fine shape. Even the bearings are in great shape, for the axle, and the fork. Thanks for the info vma1.

And RB - thank you for posting the pics and links. It helps - a lot! Question: Did you have to replace your axle? Isn't it the same as the Allstate?

Hey Cdevilla - welcome to the forum! Start a thread and post pics of your rebuild process. You're gonna dig when you fire it up for the first time and go for a spin!

The answer is no, the axles are not the same. The original axle has threads on the one end and is attached to the swing arm with a nut. The new axle for the swing arms with a damper has no threads on the end but rather uses that spring clip I mentioned earlier. You may be able to use an old VBB swing arm but they are hard to find.

As for the bearings in the original fork, I tried to keep them but when I tried to insert the new axle they started to fall out. So I pressed out the old bearings and pressed in the new bearings that came with the suspension front pivot kit. You will notice that one end of the new axle has that notch but the other end is not fastened but just fits in the end of the new swing arm.

I too wanted to keep as much of the original parts as I could but it soon became apparent I needed to upgrade to the newer parts. I initially just added the stiffer Stoffis spring to my original swing arm, no damper was installed. On smooth roads this worked quit well but on rough roads, I still got bottoming out issues. I realized I had to go and have the damper added and that necessitated changing the swing arm to one that could accommodate the damper.

I gave an monetary estimate for converting the old Allstate front fork to one with a damper in one of my previous posts. Yes, it is costly but I feel well worth it.


Original front fork showing the old axle with threaded end with nut. (It is inserted backwards just to keep the original bearings from falling out.) Note that spacers were used as well. The other end of the original axle had a flange on it.

New axle in original fork. Note the notched end on the right and the plain end on the left. This plain end will be inserted into the new swing arm. The new bearings pressed into the fork can also be seen.

End of new axle inserted into new swing arm.

Notched end of front pivot axle (right) secured with spring clip. The suspension spring axle is secured as well on the left.

So the first time I was introduced to your project I was simply interested in learning about how you painted and what you used, since then I restarted reading from the very beginning and realized you shared so very much of what you learned and experienced and continue to learn and experience. Fantastic build topic , has a bit of everything.
I have the 63 vbb2t and I have always been so interested in how similar models of same years have different setups for the floor rails and the leg shield trim.