Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:42 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 8718
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 8718
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:42 am linkquote
Guessing it is still the case that no one makes aftermarket shocks for the front of the MP3?
Have a 2008 MP3 500 with 55,500 miles and it needs front shocks.
There is a parts bike in the basement I can get a new/used set from, but would really like some Batibo's.
Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:12 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21849
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21849
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:12 am linkquote
I also have a parts front end I could use from but like you want an aftermarket shock option. Just a couple days ago I was searching around and seeing if I could find anything. No luck so far. goes I will take part the spare front end and get some measurements done and start a detailed search.

I thought Maksor was trying to get a manufacture to build something, I will reach out to him.
Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:46 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 8718
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 8718
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:46 pm linkquote
I am very interested and know a friend that owns a small old school no cnc machine shop if machining needs to be done.
He specializes in one offs and prototypes.
Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:59 pm

Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
 
Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:59 pm linkquote
This is something i'm interested in as the front shocks could be better if there the same lack of quality as the rears. My thoughts as i've mentioned before is to fit a pair of shocks into the existing front shock brackets. So remove the original shock by cutting it out and then machine the remaining part out of the bracket on the lathe. Then replace with a suitable shock from who ever can supply one of a suitable length and a threaded top rod and fit it to the original bracket by what ever means is doable. Now i'm quite sure Hagons could supply a suitable shock ,in fact at a few of the m/c shows i've been to where hagons have had a stall they have this type of shock on display ( plain body with no spring holder/ramp and threaded top ). Unfortunatly i've been to busy with loads of other things /projects to get around to to having a go. Maybe if i had a old pair of knackered o/e shocks i'd find some time i do look on ebay now and again but the cheapest used shocks i've seen were 50 /$65and i'm not paying that to scrap them.

Last edited by 3legsofman on Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:19 am

Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
 
Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:19 am linkquote
So i know it's been a while since my last post but yesterday i finally decided to see if i could do something with the wooden fuoco's front shocks. So removed one to measure up so after a clean and measure i'm not happy with the damping it's not leaking but not as it should. I decided to drill a hole in the bottom of the shock to drain out the oil and refill it but although i've drilled into the shock and now managed to drain the oil It's dirty silver in colour and theres approx 75ml it looks like it's going to be difficult to refill ( it's difficult to explain ) as there appears to be a plug inside the shock in front of the hole i've drilled in with a slight air gap around so the oil could be drained but it looks like it's not going to be easy to refill. This is where i could have done with a scrap front shock to cut open to see the internals. So i've taken the bull by the horns and opened the shock up as i've just bought a used replacement via ebay this afternoon.Photo's to follow.
Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:30 pm

Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
 
Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:30 pm linkquote
This is the fuoco, mp3 500,front shock being stripped down.First photo shows drilling out with 4.2 mm bit so i could drain the oil and then tap out the hole to fit a 5mm drain screw.Second photo shows machining off the bottom shock plug after i had drained the oil.Third and forth photo shows end plug removed ,i had to get grips on the plug to pull it off.Five and six show removing the castlelated end plug it's a tight push fit in the inner tube so needed pliers on the inner tube and the end plug to remove.More to follow.













Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:47 pm

Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
 
Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:47 pm linkquote
Following photo show shock refilled with 75ml of 5 weight fork oil i used 5 weight as thats what i used in the koni-dial-arides i rebuilt . The original oil did seem thin as well, so as i had it on the shelf that what i used. I suppose i could have done a drip test to gauge it better but as i only had the 5 weight and i wanted to get on with the job again 5 weight it was.You have to pour 1/2 of the oil in the inner tube and 1/2 between inner and outer tube.More to follow.



Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:00 pm

Hooked
2009 MP3 400, 2004 Honda ST1300
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 345
Location: Sayre, PA
 
Hooked
2009 MP3 400, 2004 Honda ST1300
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 345
Location: Sayre, PA
Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:00 pm linkquote


So the question now is, how are we going to replicate your drain and fill without the lathe to cut the end loose...
Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:30 am

Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
 
Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:30 am linkquote
pmatulew wrote:


So the question now is, how are we going to replicate your drain and fill without the lathe to cut the end loose...
Your not going to. I dismantled my shock to see what it was like inside as no one else had or is not saying ,nor have i seen any other photo's online or anywhere else for that matter i'll be posting some more photo's of the internals and THEN show where to fit a drain screw so that you can refill without all i'm presently showing. Please note i'm doing this out of interest to myself and passing on the info if i make a b--ls of it ,then i've only myself to blame. IF hagons had made some i'd buy them but there not going to so and i don't see any point in buying new piaggio ones so i'm experimenting . It maybe no one here is interested in which case thats ok with me at least i'm trying to improve my own shocks for a better ride.
Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:20 am

Addicted
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 755
Location: tampa
 
Addicted
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 755
Location: tampa
Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:20 am linkquote
are you planning to restore nitrogen charge? shocks dont work well without it. oil aerates without it. there are videos on utube that show how important nitrogen is.
Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:21 am

Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
 
Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:21 am linkquote
jerryd wrote:
are you planning to restore nitrogen charge? shocks dont work well without it. oil aerates without it. there are videos on utube that show how important nitrogen is.
Hi Jerryd. I'm no expert on suspension units so forgive me i'm wrong but i think these must be oil only as theres nothing to seperate the nitrogen from the oil unlike there is in the Hagon gas/oil shocks i opened up.See these photo's i took today of the fuoco shock i've stripped and refilled and added a drain/refill screw ( the one shown is just to keep the dirt out while i was sorting out a proper one). The central tube which is 25mm i/d i could'ent pull out from the outer tube ,it would come out part way then as shown in the photo then it would get very stiff to pull and as i didnot want to force it and possibly do damage i left it . More details and photo's to follow.









Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:57 pm

Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
 
Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:57 pm linkquote
jerryd wrote:
are you planning to restore nitrogen charge? shocks dont work well without it. oil aerates without it. there are videos on utube that show how important nitrogen is.
Thanks jerryd for pointing me to utube. What did we do before ,read books . Any way it's probably answered all my questions the fuoco shocks have brought up today.Thanks to bilstein and monroe. The hagons are mono shocks,damper seperated from the nitrogen with a seal and piston ,and the fuoco are twin tube with probably nitrogen between the inner and outer tubes which is not seperated from the oil. I assumed the nitrogen would be seperated from the oil by a seal and piston but not so in the fuoco shocks IF they have nitrogen in them from new which i now think they probably have and maybe i can confirm this when i recieve the used shock i've bought arrives. Certainly when i removed the shock spring the piston rod made no effort to return when it was pushed in and it was very jerky in operation in places. Putting the new 5 weight oil in has improved that ,and improved even more by putting 10ml extra oil in BUT the shock is basicly useless in my opinion as it's got a 20mm dead spot . It's better than when i removed it from the fuoco so i'm pleased with that . But i've no nitrogen ( i did have but gave the bottle away a few yrs ago) plus locating a spot to put a valve to inject in in would pose more problems.I still think using a pair of hagons is do able by removing the bottom bracket assembly from a pair off the fuoco ,i'm going to see what hagons can supply as i've seen a similar basic shock without end fittings and a threaded end piston rod which is required on there display at a motorcycle show.
Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:34 pm

Addicted
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 755
Location: tampa
 
Addicted
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 755
Location: tampa
Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:34 pm linkquote
I like what you did here. I have been considering adding a service valve to stock shocks. shocks oscillate 1000 times per mile. they really dont last that long before oil should be changed and nitogen recharged. two part service valve. drill and tap shock. remove plug to change oil. center of plug contains nitro port. seems simple to me.

by the way you can hear nitrogen in your shocks if you know what to listen for. they make a squishy noise when good. and they are silent when the nitro escapes. my rear shocks were used 3000 miles when I got them. the nitrogen escaped after about 5000 miles later. the fronts held up much better. they still have the nitro sound and still ride great.
Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:15 am

Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
 
Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:15 am linkquote
jerryd wrote:
I like what you did here. I have been considering adding a service valve to stock shocks. shocks oscillate 1000 times per mile. they really dont last that long before oil should be changed and nitogen recharged. two part service valve. drill and tap shock. remove plug to change oil. center of plug contains nitro port. seems simple to me.

by the way you can hear nitrogen in your shocks if you know what to listen for. they make a squishy noise when good. and they are silent when the nitro escapes. my rear shocks were used 3000 miles when I got them. the nitrogen escaped after about 5000 miles later. the fronts held up much better. they still have the nitro sound and still ride great.
Thanks for that jerryd i diden't think about using a shrader valve as a drain and refill point although it's location/fixing on the shock may pose a problem.May be i could pop round to discuss it and see what else you have removed/lightend from your fuoco ,dam that large lake between us lol.Also after thinking about it overnight and why hagons are not going to make replacement front shocks i can may be see why .Can you answer this question IF assuming the shock is N gas/oil filled can i assume that the damper rod would return to fully extended by it self after being fully pushed into the shock .
Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:56 pm

Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
 
Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:56 pm linkquote
So after more thinking time i'm now of the opinion that it's a waste of time going any further with the o/e fuoco shocks, maybe if i had access to nitrogen i would carry on but i havent and i don't think if i went to a tyre suppliers who have they would risk it ,health and safety. What i did find out is that Hagon slimline twin shock springs will fit the fuoco so if you wanted to add abit of bling you could use there chrome ones and have a choice of kg/Lb rates, but you can't use the plastic sleeve protection sleeve. Also you will have to machine up 2 new top spring location spacers ,these are what go between the top of the spring and the alloy bracket that holds the tilt lock brake . The hagon springs (205mm) are nearest to lenght of the originals (216mm) so you will have to machine up some 11mm spacers to take up the space or add it to the top spring location spacers. I have found i can buy brand new o/e shocks from italy for around 95 pr or buy them in the UK for 230 pr. I'm not keen on either, option one because there o/e and option two because there o/e and the price.I still have not recieved the replacement used shock it's still in the post which i'll fit so the fuoco is back in one piece . Then see about the hagon route.



Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:12 am

Enthusiast
mp3 500 2016
Joined: 30 Dec 2011
Posts: 85
Location: singapore
 
Enthusiast
mp3 500 2016
Joined: 30 Dec 2011
Posts: 85
Location: singapore
Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:12 am linkquote
I am looking at the front shock for vespa px 200.
It uses the 2 bolt bracket.
Additional attach bracket be made to hold the front tilt lock and also the mud guard.
Just wonder if the diamension will fit.
Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:33 am

Ossessionato
Gilera Fuoco 500ie
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 4277
Location: Netherlands Olst
 
Ossessionato
Gilera Fuoco 500ie
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 4277
Location: Netherlands Olst
Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:33 am linkquote
it will fit but how would you attach the brackets

thee Malossi or Bitubo's have oil and gas in them
Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:44 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21849
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21849
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:44 pm linkquote
Maksor wrote:
it will fit but how would you attach the brackets

thee Malossi or Bitubo's have oil and gas in them
since the Bitubos are rebuildable, you could disassemble them and then have the bracket welded. Then reassemble.
Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:27 pm

Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
 
Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:27 pm linkquote
The brackets as you know are welded/spot welded to the shock outer tube on the fuoco/mp3 so any heat distortion fixing them is not an issue as there a twin tube shock. This is were there is a problem of heat distortion fixing the brackets if your using a single tube design as hagon shocks are. What malossi, bitubo's or any other vespa px200 front shocks are i don't know but if single tube design then same problem as hagons.More radical thinking is required but what i haven't come up with so anyone got any?
Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:19 pm

Addicted
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 755
Location: tampa
 
Addicted
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 755
Location: tampa
Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:19 pm linkquote
twin tube shocks are gas filled. factory shocks will not have a place to refill. this ensures you buy a replacement. the piston does expand to full length when gas charge is present.
Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:39 am

Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
 
Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:39 am linkquote
jerryd wrote:
twin tube shocks are gas filled. factory shocks will not have a place to refill. this ensures you buy a replacement. the piston does expand to full length when gas charge is present.
Well the replacement used shock finally arrived was delayed for some reason. Anyway removed spring and pumped shock ten times in and out while the damping felt ok in and out there was no sign of the damper rod extending of it's own accord ,so no gas in it then.

Maybe @Maksor can confirm o/e piaggio mp3 front shocks are oil /gas units.
Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:19 am

Ossessionato
Gilera Fuoco 500ie
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 4277
Location: Netherlands Olst
 
Ossessionato
Gilera Fuoco 500ie
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 4277
Location: Netherlands Olst
Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:19 am linkquote
i think only oil is the cheapest
Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:18 pm

Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
 
Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:18 pm linkquote
Maksor wrote:
i think only oil is the cheapest
Yes i'm beginning to think there only oil damped shocks.
Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:21 pm

Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
 
Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:21 pm linkquote
I think i've come up with a idea of fitting a hagon unit into the empty outer of the fuoco mp3 shock . Suprising what you think about in bed
Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:06 am

Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
 
Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:06 am linkquote
So today i got the now scrap front fuoco shock and fully dismantled it to see if my idea of putting a hagon shock inside a fuoco shock was doable. I had a old pair of hagons that were sitting on the shelf, one was knackered so i dismantled it just to see how it was put togeather.The first two photo's show the fuoco shock . third photo shows the pair of hagons with one dismantled and the fourth photo showing that a hagon will fit inside the fuoco shock. I think it is fully doable as long as hagon could supply a suitable shock. I can possibly see why hagons are not going to make shocks as welding the brackets to the shock tubing will cause distortion on a single tube shock just as i found out when dismantling the fuoco shock as the inner damper tube would not pull out from the bottom of the shock due to distortion on the outer tube. On the hagon shocks the spring ramp cam is only welded around the base cap to avoid distortion futher up were the nitrogen/oil seperating holding piston moves up and down in the damper tube.
There are other issues in fitting the hagons, one is how to hold it in the fuoco shock at the topof the fuoco damper tube, i'm thinking of a threaded top cap of the like used on rebuildable ikon/koni dial-a -rides . There's also a idea in my head of machining the brackets off the fuoco shocks and replacing with new tubing which may help threading up the top of the tubes to hold a threaded top cap like koni/ikon. Brain is still working on a number of other ideas. I will see if hagons technical dept are available to talk to this week and see if they can supply what i'm after damper wise before going further. I'm hopeing hagons can help me with what type of damping and spring rate will be required.









Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:37 am

Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
 
Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:37 am linkquote
So since my last post basicaly i've done nothing due to the c19 situation except i did manage to buy a pair of brand new front later type shocks for 80 which is probably 1/3 the price of buying them normaly from Fowlers in Bristol.I've only managed 25 miles with them on which was the round trip for the fuoco's MOT. There are a few differences between the old 2008 ones and the latest basicaly the spring has got less coils ,the damper rod is 1 mm thicker and the body is wider. Riding the fuoco for only 25 miles is not a fair test of the new shocks but there is a improvement .When i can do a decent run sometime over a favorite test track i have, which has suitable rough areas and no dought will be even worse now due to more lack of maintenence and another winter i'll report back.
Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:31 pm

Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
 
Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 339
Location: United Kingdom.
Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:31 pm linkquote
3legsofman wrote:
So since my last post basicaly i've done nothing due to the c19 situation except i did manage to buy a pair of brand new front later type shocks for 80 which is probably 1/3 the price of buying them normaly from Fowlers in Bristol.I've only managed 25 miles with them on which was the round trip for the fuoco's MOT. There are a few differences between the old 2008 ones and the latest basicaly the spring has got less coils ,the damper rod is 1 mm thicker and the body is wider. Riding the fuoco for only 25 miles is not a fair test of the new shocks but there is a improvement .When i can do a decent run sometime over a favorite test track i have, which has suitable rough areas and no dought will be even worse now due to more lack of maintenence and another winter i'll report back.
So i managed a 260 mile run over mixed roads and found a improvement especialy on the rougher surfaced roads so it was well worth the bargain price of 80 for a pair of brand new later type front shocks but i'm not sure that i would have thought it if i had paid over 260 from Fowlers in Bristol for a pair. My thoughts are if you want to uprate the front suspension on the earlier models it's worth doing if you can get some later model shocks but i don't think it's worth 260 to do it .Used is the way to go if you can get a good pair.I still think theres room for improvement and still have ideas about Hagons or Koni/ikon conversions .
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