Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:40 pm

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Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:40 pm linkquote
Hello guys,

So my pinasco kit 177 aluminum is arriving in a couple of days, trying to get ahead I decided to check the current timing as I have no idea where it is.

I tried the static timing method explained in https://www.scooterhelp.com/tips/timing/points.timing.html but I couldn't get the lightbulb to dim or shine more, I even tried to slowly spin the flywheel a complete turn to see if anything changed at any point.

Method:
- Using a square 9V battery
- Using a indicator lightbulb, the box says 12V 4 CP
- The circuit is, casing to neg battery, pos battery to bulb to picking coil cable, just as in the mentioned link
- Closing the circuit with the second cable in the blue CDI when it is unplugged from the CDI, left to right, seeing the scooter from behind, which I understand is the cable attached to de picking coil
- I have no battery in the scooter

Results:
- When I did this, the bulb does not get on at all it is completely off and nothing happen when spinning the flywheel

- I tried to close the bulb circuit at the same time picking coil cable is connected to the CDI, when i do this the bulb barely shines and nothing happen when spinning the flywheel

Questions and comments:
- The most obvious one, I am doing this right?
- You think is something with the lightbulb or battery characteristics?
- I understand the IT mark in the stator is mean to be 18 degrees BTDC, i think this is what the pinasco 177 recommends, will check on arrival, you think I can trust this enough?
- I thought maybe the battery is to small to power the bulb through the whole circuit but this is not the case because I tried the other cables in the CDI and the bulb shines with a "good enough" intensity
- I have no idea what to do...
- When the kit arrives I will be posting questions here

*Edit: LML 150, rotary valve

Last edited by pureko on Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:13 am

Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1875
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1875
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:13 am linkquote
Do you have points or an electronic ignition? I didn't read through the article, but talking about using a bulb would be for an older bike with points. When you reference a cdi and coil pickup I think of an electronic ignition. Points don't need a pickup they are the pickup in a older system.
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:16 am

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Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:16 am linkquote
Christopher_55934 wrote:
Do you have points or an electronic ignition? I didn't read through the article, but talking about using a bulb would be for an older bike with points. When you reference a cdi and coil pickup I think of an electronic ignition. Points don't need a pickup they are the pickup in a older system.
thx Christopher
I have an electronic ignition, tbh i felt kind of proud of doing my research and trying to figure it out before asking here but i guess i missed that "little" detail

Does this mean I will need a flasher gun? (dont know its name in english nor do i have one)

Is there any other way?
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:40 am

Enthusiast
'58 VBA '79CT90
Joined: 25 Dec 2019
Posts: 57
Location: Chico CA
 
Enthusiast
'58 VBA '79CT90
Joined: 25 Dec 2019
Posts: 57
Location: Chico CA
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:40 am linkquote
The flasher gun is called a timing light. That is what you need to get the job done.
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:56 am

Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1875
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1875
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:56 am linkquote
You need a timing light, to check it properly. Try watching a few videos on youtube there are a few ways to check it. At a minimum watch how the "0" or top Dead Center (TDC) is identified. After that there are a few options such as measuring to make marks. If your lazy like me I have a timing light that I can input the timing I want and it does the math internally and still strobes at the TDC mark. If you measure and mark the degrees like a few videos show then a less expensive but more cumbersome measuring process can be used. This process is also more prone to being incorrect do to measurement error from the user.

I use this light that you dial in the amount of timing you want and keep it pointed at your TDC mark. It also gives you RPM, some of the LML ignitions have a built in retard function of a few degrees as the rpm increases.

https://www.tooldiscounter.com/product/actron-digital-timing-light-actcp7529?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsPSt_ZWn6gIVDpSzCh3-dwCVEAsYECABEgL1I_D_BwE
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:08 pm

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Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:08 pm linkquote
The kit arrived, setting timing aside, I have a couple of additional questions

- I do not see any torque specs for the head and exhaust, any where i can check them?

- The kit does not come with locking nuts, should i use them?
Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:44 pm

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Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:44 pm linkquote
Ok guys, so the hated jetting question has come.

I installed the pinasco alloy kit, I run a 112 main jet and has been running smoothly for the past 450km/280miles out of the 500km/310miles break-in

I choose the 112 because other people seem to be running it without a problem and considering I am at 2250m/7380ft I thought it would be a bit rich and without a problem

Right now it runs well from 0 - 3/4 throttle and then also good at full throttle (short periods so much tease from the break-in), but there is a point at almost full throttle where it seems to bog

So the question is should I go down or up?

I know its pretty particular and I don't expect you to tell me the exact jet but maybe a "procedure" or thread to look at
Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:06 pm

Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1875
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1875
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:06 pm linkquote
pureko wrote:
Ok guys, so the hated jetting question has come.

I installed the pinasco alloy kit, I run a 112 main jet and has been running smoothly for the past 450km/280miles out of the 500km/310miles break-in

I choose the 112 because other people seem to be running it without a problem and considering I am at 2250m/7380ft I thought it would be a bit rich and without a problem

Right now it runs well from 0 - 3/4 throttle and then also good at full throttle (short periods so much tease from the break-in), but there is a point at almost full throttle where it seems to bog

So the question is should I go down or up?

I know its pretty particular and I don't expect you to tell me the exact jet but maybe a "procedure" or thread to look at
Look up plug chop to get an idea how to read a plug for rich or lean. On the main jet I've been told to keep going up in size until engine starts to miss or stutter at WOT then back off a step or two.

Take a look at this thread for tuning tips, ignore the jet sizes.

62 Allstate Cruisaire - getting it back on the road (Page 10)
Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:43 pm

Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2330
Location: Florence, OR
 
Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2330
Location: Florence, OR
Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:43 pm linkquote
Hey Pureko,

Here is an older post on how to use a degree wheel to set your timing, or at least check it, from the mighty Vador. You can print out degree wheels on card stock and you'll be golden.
Vader19 wrote:
OK!.. Ready?

What you'll need:
* Degree wheel
* Pointer (wire / coat hanger)
* Piston stopper
* Something to mark the cae and flywheel with (Sharpie / tiny paint brush / file etc.)


1 - Put the degree wheel on your crank / flywheel.

2 - Set up a pointer (piece of wire or coat hanger) on a flywheel cover screw.

3 - Put a piston stopper in the sparkplug hole.

4 - Roate the crank CLOCKWISE until the crown of the piston hits the stopper and it stops.

5 - Set the degree wheel to 0 (with the pointer) (Be careful not to move the degree wheel independantly of the flywheel when you're rotating the flywheel)

6 - Rotate the crank / flywheel COUNTER CLOCKWISE until it stops.

7 - Write this number down (we'll call this "number 1")

8 - Subtract "number 1"from 360 (the result will be "number 2")

9) Divide "number 2" by 2 (the result will be "number 3")

10 - Add "number 3" to "number 1" (the result will be "number 4")

11 - Remove the piston stopper.

12 - Continue to rotate the crank past where you stopped COUNTER CLOCKWISE until your degree wheel reads "number 4" at the pointer you've made out of a wire)

13 - Mark your flywheel and case here.. this is TDC..

Done!... It's that easy!



To get to say 18 degrees BTDC for example, rotate the flywheel COUNTER CLOCKWISE 18 degrees from your new TDC mark... Mark the flyweel.. this number will be to the RIGHT of your TDC mark on the flywheel.


.... and if you doubt youself, look in the head with a flahslight and you piston should be right up at the top.. if it isn't you've done something wrong.
Degree wheel
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:10 am

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Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:10 am linkquote
qascooter wrote:
Hey Pureko,

Here is an older post on how to use a degree wheel to set your timing, or at least check it, from the mighty Vador. You can print out degree wheels on card stock and you'll be golden.


Degree wheel
Thx qascooter, I managed to set the timing properly and now I am on the dreaded task of the jetting process
Christopher_55934 wrote:
Look up plug chop to get an idea how to read a plug for rich or lean. On the main jet I've been told to keep going up in size until engine starts to miss or stutter at WOT then back off a step or two.

Take a look at this thread for tuning tips, ignore the jet sizes.

62 Allstate Cruisaire - getting it back on the road (Page 10)
Thx Christopher, now I know what will I be doing my sunday morning
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:21 am

Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1875
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1875
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:21 am linkquote
Never tried it myself, I've heard of people removing the main jet and running like that to get a feel for when the main jet starts to function. The idea is it is so rich you will feel it and know. I use an air fuel ratio meter myself. I was the kid who took the toaster apart, I like gadgets and to measure. That's how I ended up working as a Biomedical Technician.


I use this one, was nice to see good AFR numbers and temperature numbers readings at the same time. Made me confident I was getting the jetting correct.

https://www.plxdevices.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=897346002870
Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:39 pm

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Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:39 pm linkquote
This happened over the weekend, tbh I wont restore it, I dont think its worth it but I would like to build a rat bike out of this scooter when I say rat bike I mean a neglected bike that doesnt completely suck to look at, any recommendations/examples welcome



Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:25 pm

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Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3081

 
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3081

Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:25 pm linkquote
Sorry about your scooter, I hope you're ok at least!

And about my thoughts on what to do with your scooter now...a amature body man could fairly easily knock the legshields back into shape in less than 30 minutes. Using a huge rubber hammer you could get 90% of those dents out. The scooter could look decent again from 15 feet away with zero body filler.
Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:51 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2401
Location: california
 
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62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2401
Location: california
Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:51 pm linkquote
Quote:
Sorry about your scooter, I hope you're ok at least!

And about my thoughts on what to do with your scooter now...a amature body man could fairly easily knock the legshields back into shape in less than 30 minutes. Using a huge rubber hammer you could get 90% of those dents out. The scooter could look decent again from 15 feet away with zero body filler.
So sorry to hear!
Looks horrible now - but some work with a hammer could be the start of a new life.
Empty feeling you wake up with will dissipate a little every day.
Completely agree with Whodat on approach.
Glad you are ok.
Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:39 pm

Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1342
Location: California
 
Molto Verboso
Vespa
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Posts: 1342
Location: California
Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:39 pm linkquote
Oh gosh sorry hope you're OK but how's the Pinasco?
Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:42 am

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Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:42 am linkquote
thx for asking guys

About the bike maybe this weekend I will begin hitting it with a hammer

And about the pinasco, it is pretty good, I can cruise at 60 kph(38 mph) in the city without problems and it reaches 90 kph(55mph) pretty fast considering I can only compare it to a worn-out 150cc, I live at 2250m/7380ft and I am 1.8m/~6ft 90kg, haven't done a top speed run but it seems I will be satisfied

So yeah I am pretty happy about the pinasco, I think the only upgrades missing are a basic bump in suspension quality and front brakes refresh
⬆️    About 2 months elapsed between posts    ⬇️
Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:34 am

Member
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Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:34 am linkquote
time for a little update.

Mechanics, running perfectly with the pinasco 177 and a venturi polini and just for curiosity I will mention with both mods I am running a 100 main jet, yes I know is really small but even with a 105 it was bogging and ruining the sparkplug and remember I am at 2,300 m (7,500 ft) over sea level


Esthetics, this is how I decided I will ride it, with some bare metal sections but with a transparent coating to avoid rust



Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:42 am

Molto Verboso
'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '66 Allstate SF, '65 VBB, '66 180SS
Joined: 27 Mar 2013
Posts: 1027
Location: S.Salem, NY
 
Molto Verboso
'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '66 Allstate SF, '65 VBB, '66 180SS
Joined: 27 Mar 2013
Posts: 1027
Location: S.Salem, NY
Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:42 am linkquote
Hey, you did a great job banging that out !
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