Modern Vespa

The problem with this type of conversion is easier to do with a lambretta due to centralized location of motor. Then you have issue of Vespa being a monocoque body/frame design. Even then it's not a plug and play solution.

I'm sure it won't be long till someone is building and selling complete engines using the Pinasco case as a base. I think there is a place for a blueprinted/rubber stamped combination of OEM and aftermarket parts, all buttoned together by people with the correct skills and workshop equipment.

The problem with kits, cranks, exhausts, carbs, gearing etc. is that you never truly know what you're going to end up with. SIP attempts to partially address this with their touring and sports combination kits, but even then, you might be starting with compromised cases, sub-standard sealing pads and varying type, quality and condition of bearings and seals.

I can build a good engine over time, but being able to buy an off-the-shelf engine that is built for touring or street racing, with 18bhp, 24bhp or 30bhp (examples) has a certain appeal. Throw in a power (but not speed) guarantee, a warranty, and after sales service and it has some real appeal for those people that just want to ride. Owners of brand new PX125s in the UK spring to mind.

That's actually a great idea. Just like Rimini Lambretta Center is selling complete SS200/225 motors ready to go - plug and play

Even the Pinasco case has it's problems - which should not happen with a brand new case. Apparently on the rotary cases the clearance from the crank to the rotary pad is twice what the Piaggio or Malossi cases are.
Also they left out the o-ring groove for the kick start... maybe these things will be fixed in subsequent productions.

Yes I'm sure there would be a market for complete engines. Difficult to guarantee them as there's no telling if they would be run in correctly or run with the right jets, fuel or oil. But at least things could be optimised properly... not many of us have the cash to go through all the combinations of parts until it's perfect.

Just thought - S&S have their engine configurator and sell you the kit of parts. That's probably as close as it gets.

Here is the answer

https://www.facebook.com/bsgcorse.it/posts/988820511201398

The BSG Corse stuff is very special, but too far removed from a 'proper' Vespa engine for my liking. I know it's precision engineered, very powerful, very imaginative and all that, but the quirks, the unknowns, the often limited budgets and the risks associated with making an old Vespa go fast(er) are all part of the challenge and the fun.

Sweet! Look how chunky the transfer area is. It'll be interesting to see what price they come in at.

Swa45, I see what you're saying but it's hard not to be overwhelmed by the promise of more power...

Supposed to be affordable like the new Casa Case for Lambretta with big ass spigot area and bullet 305 ready. And price on that is supposed to be silly cheap below £500.
I've been riding scorer with tuned motors 30 plus years. The only way to fly.
Always nice to have power at your disposal.

Last edited by almogavar1969 on Tue, 29 Mar 2016 18:32:29 +0000; edited 1 time

if they can get this far with a standard PX fit, why not ad a VB1 fit?
and an aluminum x magnesium alloy is the standard for high heat.

???
PX & VB1 cases nearly identical in size. The size of 305 cylinder is gonna get in way of things along with intake setup. I wouldnt waste time, money and energy putting into a VB1 period.

Yep. You can go just as slow with 20hp as you can with 3 if you want to!

Translation for you my friend

We are yet to decide to start casting. We have lined up suppliers. We have all the drawings.
We have casted some PX crankcases with the aluminum we had.
Keeping in mind the need of 70 Kg of aluminum per set this process is quite expensive.
The cases you see in the photos have all been fitted with commercially available kit for PX 125/150 and (by relocating the holes) PX 200; 30-62-16 bearings, external seals, 60 crankshaft, 110 piston rod with 55mm wide shoulders and 102mm flywheel.
Alternatively we can fit our 305cc kit, 64 crankshaft with a 78mm piston and a top quality 68mm reed valve (goodbye SI).
The motor as well as the carburetor (VHSB) seats under the belly.
What are your thoughts?
Should we start casting a few sets?

Fabio, you're a star! Don't know why I didn't think of you sooner... cheers for that!

Always a pleasure mate.

I've just read some comments on Facebook saying that BSG (now BFA Motori) ended up selling only 6 of the 305 motors and are not going to do any more. Not sure if that's correct.

I don't think it's true. They stopped making cnc cases and started casting them to drop the costs down. Check their latest photos...

Update!!!

On sale, on SIP's site...

5.5k EUR for the main parts (cases, crank, cylinder, exhaust, clutch). Not bad...

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/crankcase+bfa+motori+306+for_78245500

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/racing+cylinder+bfa+motori+306+_78245600

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/clutch+bfa+motori+306+motor+_78245900

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/racing+exhaust+bfa+motori+306+_78245620

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/crankshaft+bfa+motori+306+_78245800

All that tech is super cool...but come on, no 5 (reliable) speed yet? All that time, trouble, and money going into making those cases and no 5 speed? I would have hoped that BFA and DRT could have gotten together to make it happen. Or maybe a 5 speed isn't really needed because the engine has enough torque making a close ratio transmission not needed?

Cheers Safis! I was quoted £9000 for a complete motor with Parmakit ignition and (I assume) carb - it was described as "plug & play". This does seem like the logical answer. Also if they were building it to only fit into these cases, there would be no cost advantage from bigger production runs. A (reliable) 5 speed setup that could fit into standard cases you would have to think would sell very well... maybe one day!

The intake is nice... right at the base of the cylinder, with no crank to get in the way.



Oh, and I noticed the price on the Malossi cases, wonder if this is a mistake? Seems incredibly expensive for basically standard cases!

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/crankcase+malossi+standard_57144930

Today I saw this motor being advertised. 7555 euro for delivery outside of the EU.
https://www.vespmoto.de/bfa-motori-306/english/







The thing that grabbed my attention was this video. The thing sounds like it's hardly working at all!

https://youtu.be/g7DzSJwJuo0

Did you put down your deposit??

It's down the back of the couch!

At the beginning of the video, I was a little, "Meh, this isn't all that impressive."

When he shifted from 3rd up to 4th at about 30 seconds was when my jaw dropped.

"V-max at this setup about > 160 km/h"

Yeah that thing sounds like it's hardly trying. And I don't want to do 160 but just knowing you could, that would be really something.

Check out his site, the Quattrini 260 (!) is half the price and almost as quick.

Has anyone (most likely a single person) saved enough yet to to buy one of these?

Yeah, some owner's reviews would be nice. How long does the crucifiorm last..?

In miles or minutes?

BFA 244.

No it's not a 306, but should be way more affordable and no doubt go like stink. What I find impressive is the solution to tiny (compared to motorcycle) transfers with an adaptor plate that changes stud location. Loving the port layout.
It's for a standard 200 case and uses a 127mm rod.

So this is all about getting the exhaust port wider and/or auxiliary ports added with a stock 200 case, and getting that extra 10-15 hp that Jack always refers to, in order to go beyond the max ~40hp that is achievable with a highly tuned MHR setup?

How would this compare to a Quattrini 260 setup, which uses a 64mm stroke and 127mm rod? I guess this is still limited to the stock 200 stud spacing?

Not really. The adaptor plate is bolted to the cases, and the cylinder is bolted to the adaptor plate... so in theory, the cylinder studs/bolts can go wherever they want to put them.
You would have to think that this will produce a lot more hp than the Quattrini because the porting design is much more aggressive for a start. Also the Q was designed as a tourer with fairly mild timings I believe. Whereas the BFA 306's "stock" exhaust is an expansion chamber. Think that says something about their design intent.

We'll have to wait for a while to see actual numbers, but I imagine this is going to be a good 20% more powerful than the Quattrini.

My 306 is currently being built.

Thanks Ginch. Sorry, I was referring to the Quattrini being limited to the stock stud spacing.

Looks like someone at BFA reads our forum.

Remember this thread? Cylinder Stud Patterns from 2 years ago? Certainly looks like they actually made it. When can I buy one?

Yeah think I mistook your point! At Vespmoto (who sells complete motors) he's saying the 260 has around 31hp using a PipeDesign box, and that the 306 has about 46 using his own box exhaust.
So for this new 244, that has very similar looking aggressive porting to the 306 (but is a little more restricted in the case transfer area compared to the 306), you'd have to think it would put it in the high 30's at least? And more with an expansion. They've done that with the 306 but not this new cylinder Jack. Not that it will hold them back I think! Nice! Are you building it yourself?

Made more sense reading our whole thread. Getting away from the stock 200 stud pattern was the point.
Don't get too hung up on the base transfer size. It's always the exhaust port that's the issue but that's fixed on this.
If this BFA244 becomes widely available it could easily be the most powerful for the stock cases.

No I get what you mean, it's not the separately bolted base flange that's important, it's the pattern itself. Which as you say is fixed.

There's certainly no reason it won't be widely available as SIP are their manufacturer/sales partner now. It's only cost that will hold us back... the Quattrini cylinder at SIP is 576 euro, and the BFA 225 (probably the closest comparison currently) is 1162 euro.

Someone should make that adapter plate to put a Malossi 210 on the smaller 150 case. I wonder how it would run. It wouldn't be perfect but you could port the 150 case out a reasonable amount and get better air flow than a factory 200.

Been done, but not on the market yet I believe. At least, an adapter plate is the only way I can imagine it would work given the clues he's dropped.

https://scooterlab.uk/jg-vespa-200-cylinder-conversion-for-the-px125-feature/

200 cylinder for 150 case