What Coolant Do You Use?
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2015 Vespa GTS300 Super
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Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:43 am quote
So, I was going to use this, but not sure if it meets specifications for the GTS 300. Does anyone know? As Stromrider pointed out, coolant is rather complicated; I feel it’s more difficult to find the correct coolant than it is to find the “right” motor oil.



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Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:14 am quote
I don't think G12 Pentofrost is suitable for our GTS bikes. I can't see the full specs though. I'm pretty sure from memory it's not designed for our bikes and neither is G13. It's meant for VAG group cars that have differing requirements. I think it's not designed for our pump seals amongst other things. I'd need to check it out more before saying yes to that one.
Hooked
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Addicted
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Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:17 pm quote
Here's the only specification I can find from the Vespa manual:

AGIP PERMANENT SPEZIALcoolant
Monoethylene glycol-based antifreeze fluid, CUNA NC 956-16

So will any monoethylene glycol with the CUNA NC 956-16 rating work?
Ossessionato
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Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:01 am quote
No, it won't. Some have Armines and some other plasticisers in them which damage your water pump seals. Engine gaskets can suffer too. I would avoid using any G13 coolants (mostly for VAG group cars) which is often not even glycol ethylene based, it's glycerine based. It could cause issues but I've not tested that one. To be sure, you want to get a mono ethylene glycol OAT based coolant meeting the standards laid down in the owners manual. You may find you can't get one locally that lists all the standards but as long as it's OAT meeting or exceeding most of the standards like this one below, it's fine.

https://www.commaoil.com/passenger-vehicles/products/view/298 It's a concentrate and has to be diluted with distilled water or de-mineralised water.

I don't think you can get the Comma products in the States but there will be an equivalent.

Last edited by Stromrider on Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:15 am; edited 3 times in total
Ossessionato
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Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:09 am quote
Bueller wrote:
https://peakauto.com/products/antifreeze-coolants/automotive/oet-european-vehicle-coolant-extended-life-pink/

I bought it at my local Advance auto parts
This one on the face of it looks pretty good. I can't see all the standards it meets but it is OAT and Ethylene Glycol based so it's a start.
Hooked
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Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:59 am quote
Stromrider wrote:
Bueller wrote:
https://peakauto.com/products/antifreeze-coolants/automotive/oet-european-vehicle-coolant-extended-life-pink/

I bought it at my local Advance auto parts
This one on the face of it looks pretty good. I can't see all the standards it meets but it is OAT and Ethylene Glycol based so it's a start.
PEAK ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT TECHNOLOGY ANTIFREEZE + COOLANT for EUROPEAN VEHICLES – PINK is an ethylene glycol-based antifreeze/coolant specifically developed for use in any European vehicle requiring a silicate-free Pink formulation. It contains high-quality organic acid technology (OAT) corrosion inhibitors and is free of borate, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate, silicate and amines chemicals.

PEAK ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT TECHNOLOGY ANTIFREEZE + COOLANT for EUROPEAN VEHICLES – PINK meets the performance requirements of ASTM D3306 and BS 6580. With a complete flush and fill, PEAK guarantees it will provide service life protection of up to 150,000 miles or 5 years.

After reviewing everything they said about it I felt pretty confident in using it after two complete flush/run cycles with distilled water.
Ossessionato
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Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:19 am quote
Yep, that's pretty good and is similar to the Comma I linked to. Just one thing. Although it's sold as a long-life coolant, once in our Vespas it's a short life of two years before it will need changing. The mix of cast iron in our engines will shorten it's life and it will become like any other OAT coolant and become very acidic no matter what the mileage the bike does. You prolly know that though.
Hooked
Joined: 06 Oct 2013
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Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:04 pm quote
Stromrider wrote:
Yep, that's pretty good and is similar to the Comma I linked to. Just one thing. Although it's sold as a long-life coolant, once in our Vespas it's a short life of two years before it will need changing. The mix of cast iron in our engines will shorten it's life and it will become like any other OAT coolant and become very acidic no matter what the mileage the bike does. You prolly know that though.
Not doubting your claim, but they claim it provides rust and corrosion resistance to all metals.

“PEAK ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT TECHNOLOGY ANTIFREEZE + COOLANT for EUROPEAN VEHICLES is a line of premium coolants specifically designed to match the technology and color requirements of European vehicles. Each coolant is formulated with the same corrosion inhibitor technology that protected your vehicle straight from the factory. These formulas will provide excellent protection against rust and corrosion to all cooling system metals, including aluminum, and are fully compatible with other extended life coolants. Color cues on the packaging and a list of covered vehicles on the front label make it easy to identify the right match for your specific vehicle.“

I do not have an antifreeze PH checker, but it would be interesting to see what kind of shape it’s in at the 2 year mark
Ossessionato
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Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:49 pm quote
Indeed, it will protect against rust and other corrosion. But the cast iron in our engines makes up a significant proportion of surface area within our engines which can rust profusely. Therefore any OAT coolant, which attacks corrosion at source, uses up it's additives very quickly. That's unlike other types of coolant that lay down a carpet of chemical protection inside the engine and once done can be largely left for long periods without changing it. If you test acidity (ph) of your coolant at 2 years it's normally still ok. But at 2+ years it starts to go off the scale with increasing acidity which is why Piaggio includes a coolant change at every 2 years to avoid water pump seal, gasket damage and corrosion. I use the 4 way PH test strips which also measures the dilution level ratio too. As a test the OAT 5 year coolant that I use started to become acidic at 28 months. Up to then it was in the OK range. It was not intentional to leave it that long but I ended up in hospital unable to do my normal service on time.
Hooked
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Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:22 am quote
So you’ve already done the testing. Interesting, and I will keep it in mind!

I used a standard hydrometer to make sure the coolant (which is premixed) wasn’t too diluted by any residual distilled water that I had used to flush the cooling system. I may look into some test strips or a specific antifreeze Ph checker. I have enough vehicles to make it worthwhile.
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Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:00 am quote
When I was in the States I used these, although may others are available and often from motor stores.

https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/eme/analysis

If you have several vehicles it's worth it. It can save you having to change out coolant unnecessarily.
Molto Verboso
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Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:22 am quote
Quote:
wbdvt wrote:
I have found some Peak Final Charge Global which says it is non 2-EH, OAT and is nitrate, phosphate, silicate and borate free. I saw it at WalMart. Has anyone used that?
I just got a gallon of that. I've been using Bel Ray Moto Chill for a long time, because it's non-toxic, but I want to see if this will be better for the engine. I will probably do a compressed air reverse flush to get anything that's in the system out with the coolant, and then fill it up and see what happens.
Motovista: any update on what you thought of this coolant?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:29 am quote
Only original products....but if Motovista (or Modern Vespa) makes one with its brand i buy it.

Molto Verboso
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Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:22 am quote


It's premixed.

O.S.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:17 pm quote
Right, your scooter is air cooled and for that you should also own a VW Beetle from the 60s - 70s.
Addicted
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Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:15 pm quote
eni antifreeze spezial 12++ pink $10 for a litre

Smells and looks like the original coolant that come in the vespa.



Enthusiast
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Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:26 pm quote
Maxx28 wrote:
eni antifreeze spezial 12++ pink $10 for a litre

Smells and looks like the original coolant that come in the vespa.
Me too
Member
2021 Vespa GTS 300 Super HPE
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Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:03 am quote
Was watching Robot's video on Comprehensive 6K Service for Vespa GTS 300 HPE and noticed he now listed the recommended coolant as Maxima 82964 Coolanol 50/50 Blend Performance Coolant.

Interesting for sure since the Maxima 82964 Chemical Composition is different than standard G12 Coolant.
Addicted
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Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:44 am quote
From the HPE owner’s manual:

Ethylene glycol antifreeze liquid with organic inhibition additives. Red, ready to use. ASTM D 3306 - ASTM D 4656 - ASTM D 4985 CUNA NC 956-16.

I did a very quick search, and I didn’t see that the Maxima product meets those exact specs... In the U.S., I can’t find many products that are available and list those specs on their packaging (or anywhere else). I’ve given up my search for the “right” coolant.

In the manual, Piaggio also recommends Castrol products, but it doesn’t appear Castrol makes coolant.

I’m about to do a coolant change myself, and at this point I’m planning to use the following unless a forum member reads this post and warns me against it:

https://peakauto.com/products/antifreeze-and-cool/auto/globallifetime-5050/


Good luck.
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Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:40 am quote
Attila wrote:
Right, your scooter is air cooled and for that you should also own a VW Beetle from the 60s - 70s.
See below. 74 Karmann Ghia (under wraps), 72 Super Beetle in background. Not shown - 71 Beetle Convertible.

Atilla, you are correct. Affinity for air cooled bikes and air cooled cars goes together (disregard the Honda Metropolitan sitting in the foreground). : )

Chris From CLE



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Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:04 am quote
I am this guy:

coolant is coolant. all do the same thing.




but seriously water is corrosive. ridiculously so. coolant prevents waters corrosion. ALL coolant stops waters destructive properties.

to say there are additives in coolant that will damage this or that? show me. its not hard to prove. soak that part in the subject coolant for a few months. show me the damage.

when I built alcohol injection systems for my car thats what I did. soak part in the alky and see what happens. not hard , not complicated like these silly conversations.
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Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:08 am quote
ChrisFromCLE wrote:
See below. 74 Karmann Ghia (under wraps), 72 Super Beetle in background. Not shown - 71 Beetle Convertible.

Atilla, you are correct. Affinity for air cooled bikes and air cooled cars goes together (disregard the Honda Metropolitan sitting in the foreground). : )

Chris From CLE
What pray tell is that thing next to the Metropolitan with the boom box on it? It looks like the bow of a small Amphibious Assault Vehicle (AAV).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_Amphibious_Vehicle#/media/File:170606-N-PF515-398_(34973155842).jpg
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Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:40 am quote
jerryd wrote:
I am this guy:

coolant is coolant. all do the same thing.




but seriously water is corrosive. ridiculously so. coolant prevents waters corrosion. ALL coolant stops waters destructive properties.

to say there are additives in coolant that will damage this or that? show me. its not hard to prove. soak that part in the subject coolant for a few months. show me the damage.

when I built alcohol injection systems for my car thats what I did. soak part in the alky and see what happens. not hard , not complicated like these silly conversations.
Hi Jerry, with respect I think you might be the only one that thinks these conversations are silly. To coin your phrase, "coolant is coolant" is so not correct! Only someone who doesn't know much about the multiple types of coolant (OAT, IAT, POAT, HOAT, NOAT and many many more) would suggest that. If that's the case you also won't know how each type of coolant works. If you did you'd understand the need to make sure you use the right one irrespective of the metals in the engine used for it's construction and in the engine gaskets. The main issue, but not the only one, is that most coolants are incompatible with each other and can turn to a gel blocking radiators and cylinder water ways even after you have flushed the system of the old different coolant. And of course, many can cause harm to different metals in the engine. No one needs to show you, you just need to do some homework if you don't know.
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BV350
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Location: Miami, Fl
Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:00 am quote
Is this good/recommend for my Piaggio BV350??
It’s at my auto parts store.



https://peakauto.com/products/antifreeze-coolants/automotive/oet-european-vehicle-coolant-extended-life-pink/
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Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:54 am quote
Juan_ORhea wrote:
What pray tell is that thing next to the Metropolitan with the boom box on it? It looks like the bow of a small Amphibious Assault Vehicle (AAV).
Ha, ha! No such luck! It is a lowly trencher similar to the photo below. Worse shape though - I loaned to to a friend. He used it and left it sitting in a field for about ten years before returning it.

I’ll not hijack this thread anymore....

Chris from CLE



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Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:19 am quote
DannyCoolBeans wrote:
Is this good/recommend for my Piaggio BV350??
It’s at my auto parts store.

https://peakauto.com/products/antifreeze-coolants/automotive/oet-european-vehicle-coolant-extended-life-pink/
It's probably fine... I've read posts from others on this forum who use it in their Vespas. I don't know the BV 350's specs, but they are perhaps similar to the Vespa specs, which are:

Ethylene glycol antifreeze liquid with organic inhibition additives. Red, ready to use. ASTM D 3306 - ASTM D 4656 - ASTM D 4985 CUNA NC 956-16.

Based on what I can find on that Peak coolant at, https://peakauto.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/PEAK-OET-European-PINK-SPEC-SHEET.pdf, it is ethylene glycol, OAT, red in color, and ASTM D 3306.

But who know if it also meets: ASTM D 4656, ASTM D 4985, and CUNA NC 956-16??? Not sure how much it matters...
Moderaptor
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Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:14 am quote
The colour is irrelevant. Different suppliers use different colours. It seems only in the US do folk get fussed about the colour of their coolant...

Just stick to the specs (ethylene glycol, OAT, no silicates or phosphates) and you'll be fine. Note there's no spec on colour.
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Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:23 pm quote
jimc wrote:
The colour is irrelevant.
Not disagreeing, but someone might let Piaggio know about that since they list “red in colour” in the owners manual. Or maybe all this confusion in the U.S. over coolant color is really due to an Italian misinformation campaign to make Americans even more confused about everything.
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Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:34 pm quote
Stromrider wrote:
jerryd wrote:
I am this guy:

coolant is coolant. all do the same thing.




but seriously water is corrosive. ridiculously so. coolant prevents waters corrosion. ALL coolant stops waters destructive properties.

to say there are additives in coolant that will damage this or that? show me. its not hard to prove. soak that part in the subject coolant for a few months. show me the damage.

when I built alcohol injection systems for my car thats what I did. soak part in the alky and see what happens. not hard , not complicated like these silly conversations.
Hi Jerry, with respect I think you might be the only one that thinks these conversations are silly. To coin your phrase, "coolant is coolant" is so not correct! Only someone who doesn't know much about the multiple types of coolant (OAT, IAT, POAT, HOAT, NOAT and many many more) would suggest that. If that's the case you also won't know how each type of coolant works. If you did you'd understand the need to make sure you use the right one irrespective of the metals in the engine used for it's construction and in the engine gaskets. The main issue, but not the only one, is that most coolants are incompatible with each other and can turn to a gel blocking radiators and cylinder water ways even after you have flushed the system of the old different coolant. And of course, many can cause harm to different metals in the engine. No one needs to show you, you just need to do some homework if you don't know.
all the major supply chains here in the USA sell ONE universal antifreeze thats compatible will all available antiftreeze available. and they dont want law suits. they can sell one fits all because thats exactly the case. you cant show me proof because there is none. its just marketing. my friend just paid 60 from piaggio for 4 quarts of that fancy looking pink soft bag. same amount costs 12 at the discount parts supplies.

I am fine if I am the only one who knowsl
prestone big black letters for the blind. "all vehicles all models all years"
does that make it any clearer?


https://www.homedepot.com/p/Prestone-Prestone-All-Vehicles-10yr-300k-mi-Antifreeze-Coolant-1-Gal-Ready-to-Use-AF2100/204799736?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&mtc=Shopping-B-F_D25T-G-D25T-25_31_GARAGE_AUTOMOTIVE-Multi-NA-Feed-PLA-NA-NA-GarageAutomotive_PLA&cm_mmc=Shopping-B-F_D25T-G-D25T-25_31_GARAGE_AUTOMOTIVE-Multi-NA-Feed-PLA-NA-NA-GarageAutomotive_PLA-71700000034127221-58700003933021543-92700060764889384&gclid=Cj0KCQiA4L2BBhCvARIsAO0SBdaMnbJIrB8k3kUYmORWQRBkKD8q_N_deV5XKJ_YgmhtWUMrREAXmb0aAo1cEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
Addicted
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Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:18 pm quote
jerryd wrote:
all the major supply chains here in the USA sell ONE universal antifreeze thats compatible will all available antiftreeze available.
As long as it's "red in colour", I'm sold!

But honestly, maybe jerryd is on to something. I'm about to put dreaded amber-colored PEAK Global Lifetime 50/50 in my 2018 GTS. So, I decided, why not check with PEAK before I do so? So I contacted them. Below is my inquiry and PEAK's response:

Me: Can I use Peak Global Lifetime 50/50 in my 2018 Vespa GTS300 motorcycle? Per the Vespa's owner's manual, it requires: Ethylene glycol antifreeze liquid with organic inhibition additives. Red, ready to use. ASTM D 3306 - ASTM D 4656 - ASTM D 4985 CUNA NC 956-16. Will Global Lifetime 50/50 work well for this motorcycle?

PEAK: There will not be any issue with using PEAK Global Lifetime in your Vespa. It meets ASTM D 3306 specification and is a universal formulation which is safe for Domestic, Asian and European vehicles

I have included a spec sheet at the top of the email for your viewing.

Kind Regards,

PEAK Technical Support Team

NOTE: The spec sheet was the same one available on their website.

I'm gonna go for it... That's right - despite what Piaggio says in their manual, I'm going to use amber-colored coolant (and not red) in my GTS 300. Probably...
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Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:22 pm quote
jerryd wrote:
Stromrider wrote:
jerryd wrote:
I am this guy:

coolant is coolant. all do the same thing.




but seriously water is corrosive. ridiculously so. coolant prevents waters corrosion. ALL coolant stops waters destructive properties.

to say there are additives in coolant that will damage this or that? show me. its not hard to prove. soak that part in the subject coolant for a few months. show me the damage.

when I built alcohol injection systems for my car thats what I did. soak part in the alky and see what happens. not hard , not complicated like these silly conversations.
Hi Jerry, with respect I think you might be the only one that thinks these conversations are silly. To coin your phrase, "coolant is coolant" is so not correct! Only someone who doesn't know much about the multiple types of coolant (OAT, IAT, POAT, HOAT, NOAT and many many more) would suggest that. If that's the case you also won't know how each type of coolant works. If you did you'd understand the need to make sure you use the right one irrespective of the metals in the engine used for it's construction and in the engine gaskets. The main issue, but not the only one, is that most coolants are incompatible with each other and can turn to a gel blocking radiators and cylinder water ways even after you have flushed the system of the old different coolant. And of course, many can cause harm to different metals in the engine. No one needs to show you, you just need to do some homework if you don't know.
all the major supply chains here in the USA sell ONE universal antifreeze thats compatible will all available antiftreeze available. and they dont want law suits. they can sell one fits all because thats exactly the case. you cant show me proof because there is none. its just marketing. my friend just paid 60 from piaggio for 4 quarts of that fancy looking pink soft bag. same amount costs 12 at the discount parts supplies.

I am fine if I am the only one who knowsl
prestone big black letters for the blind. "all vehicles all models all years"
does that make it any clearer?


https://www.homedepot.com/p/Prestone-Prestone-All-Vehicles-10yr-300k-mi-Antifreeze-Coolant-1-Gal-Ready-to-Use-AF2100/204799736?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&mtc=Shopping-B-F_D25T-G-D25T-25_31_GARAGE_AUTOMOTIVE-Multi-NA-Feed-PLA-NA-NA-GarageAutomotive_PLA&cm_mmc=Shopping-B-F_D25T-G-D25T-25_31_GARAGE_AUTOMOTIVE-Multi-NA-Feed-PLA-NA-NA-GarageAutomotive_PLA-71700000034127221-58700003933021543-92700060764889384&gclid=Cj0KCQiA4L2BBhCvARIsAO0SBdaMnbJIrB8k3kUYmORWQRBkKD8q_N_deV5XKJ_YgmhtWUMrREAXmb0aAo1cEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
Been a while since I went to a Home Depot. I didn't realize the were automotive specialists.
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Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:27 am quote
theschuman wrote:
jerryd wrote:
all the major supply chains here in the USA sell ONE universal antifreeze thats compatible will all available antiftreeze available.
As long as it's "red in colour", I'm sold!

But honestly, maybe jerryd is on to something. I'm about to put dreaded amber-colored PEAK Global Lifetime 50/50 in my 2018 GTS. So, I decided, why not check with PEAK before I do so? So I contacted them. Below is my inquiry and PEAK's response:

Me: Can I use Peak Global Lifetime 50/50 in my 2018 Vespa GTS300 motorcycle? Per the Vespa's owner's manual, it requires: Ethylene glycol antifreeze liquid with organic inhibition additives. Red, ready to use. ASTM D 3306 - ASTM D 4656 - ASTM D 4985 CUNA NC 956-16. Will Global Lifetime 50/50 work well for this motorcycle?

PEAK: There will not be any issue with using PEAK Global Lifetime in your Vespa. It meets ASTM D 3306 specification and is a universal formulation which is safe for Domestic, Asian and European vehicles

I have included a spec sheet at the top of the email for your viewing.

Kind Regards,

PEAK Technical Support Team

NOTE: The spec sheet was the same one available on their website.

I'm gonna go for it... That's right - despite what Piaggio says in their manual, I'm going to use amber-colored coolant (and not red) in my GTS 300. Probably...
Yeah, as jimc says, the colour is irrelevant. Manufacturers use different coloured dyes to identify their products in their range. Colour does not denote the type of antifreeze or it's suitability for any particular vehicle or engine. On the face of it the Peak coolant looks ok but bear in mind you should still change it out at the 2 year point. This is due to the fact the cast iron cylinder makes up a disproportionate amount of the internal surface area that has to be protected from rust, therefore using up the anti corrosion properties of the coolant much earlier than in other types of engine especially cars which can go longer with the same coolant. In addition, because it's a motorcycle engine that revs much higher than a car or truck engine, the water pump lubricity compounds also get used up much more quickly too so the 2 yrs change interval is still important. You can check how acidic the coolant becomes using the test strips I link to in an earlier post in this thread if you are not sure. Let us know how you get on with the change over.
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Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:21 am quote
Stromrider wrote:
...the 2 yrs change interval is still important...
Yes - Absolutely adhere to the 2 year change interval. I change the brake fluid around the same time as I change the coolant; I figure it’s a good habit to get into since they both have the same 2 year change interval.

Ironically, and to jerryd’s point, after spending an hour or more of unsuccessfully looking for reasonably priced ENI/AGIP Bike S on the internet, I found the Peak Global Lifetime 50/50 in my town’s Walgreens pharmacy.

So, I’m not suggesting putting “whatever” coolant in your Vespa and leaving it there for 5 years, but as jerryd noted, you don’t need to spend $60 on the coolant for a change. Do a little research - read Strom’s and others’ suggestions in the various coolant posts on this forum - and find a suitable OAT coolant without breaking the bank.
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 3321
Location: East Anglia, a dryer region of the UK than Israel
Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:51 am quote
Yes, you'll have no trouble doing it that way.

Ironically, the coolants that claim to be "Universal" are usually not fully universal, as indicated for example on the Prestone bottles. Note the Prestone is only universal with the 'types' of antifreeze it lists on the bottle, and not with other types. So the bottle is a bit misleading and great care should be exercised in choosing the right coolant. And in addition, you shouldn't normally mix OAT with HOAT types as they react with each other. The way Prestone avoid this is by clever manipulation of the formula, which while ok is a bit of a compromise. There is no truly fully universal coolant and those that claim to be, usually compromise a little with the formulation making them sometimes not quite so good in my view. But they will do the job. Your Peak product is an OAT and that's the main thing.

You can see here what I'm talking about and indications of how the coolants can react with each other:
http://irontite.com/additives/about-cooling-systems/understanding-the-different-antifreeze-types-for-your-car/
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