Modern Vespa

I've been following this thread for a while and happy to see recent updates.

I have a 2003 Genuine Stella 2T which is essentially a PX150 large frame. I attempted a full IC engine rebuild last summer and it ran great but something wasn't right with the gear stack. I had thought about going electric before the rebuild and now I'm ready to ditch the 2 stroke!

@resistor I'm super interested in your 72V upgrade. I've been eyeing a motor from Kelly - their 72V 6kW motor - which seems like a beast. I've also looked at the battery pack from Luna, but it is pricey and may not be powerful enough. Leaning towards assembling my own.

Just wanted to check into this thread and say hello. Keep up the great work!

This is getting more and more interesting. Freak Moped got his hands on one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXuz0pHAAHU

That's really cool. He is using the stock swing arm and motor casing, so no hub motor. The engineering is brilliant!

He is using 3 batteries to get the range extension (200k/120miles). However, I'm not sure I have the stones to put a battery under the floorboard attached with sticky tape.

There was an outfit in Seattle, I think they were called Sound Speed Scooters, that briefly offered a similar set up, but they disappeared pretty quickly. They were a little early, as the battery tech has come a long way since then. Still more to go before this becomes mainstream, but 20hp should be plenty for anyone in the scooter world.

pls moped & freak together
freakmoped it is!

its very well done and has the charme that you can still hand gearshift which i think is ingenious! & it even has a kickstarter 8)

fun to ride, engine has 15kW, but its set to 9kW = 12hp
as they still have some TPS setting issues
i would NOT go for less power, near to 9kW is needed


box exhaust with sticky tape = controller, not the battery
the three batteries are in the spare wheel lid and tank area
same cells as tesla uses, i was told

more info:
part1: https://bit.ly/3h5YdoL
part2: (only analog, digital to come)
part3: https://bit.ly/2GqCTxp

its the austrian crank-e principle where you keep the gearbox
www.crank-e.at

test ride with crank-e smallframes
https://bit.ly/2FakLHx
https://bit.ly/3h2VxIx

more info about the project in the austrian news papter motomobil
part1: https://bit.ly/3h5YdoL
part2: (only analog, digital to come)
part3: https://bit.ly/2GqCTxp


dont ask about the costs
you get 2 bfa 306 engines for it

I am following this with real interest. I have a 1981 PX that I am restoring, and recently got into ebikes. This made me consider building the scooter into an e-scooter. I figure I can sell the motor and parts for $500, which will help to offset the cost of the conversion. I figure the cost at around $2K. Does that sound reasonable?

Can you give me links to your 72V set-up, motor, batteries, controllers etc.?

I am very serious about this. Should be a blast, and more fun than the temperamental 2 stroke 200cc I have now.


Running and riding, though skipping out of 2nd.


Currently:

Jim,

I think you can easily do this conversion for under $2K, depending on your choice of components. The battery is the most expensive part, and you have many choices on motor controller and hub motor. All these parts come from China, so you have to factor in shipping costs when you make your decisions.

The hardest part, if you don't have to teach yourself some basic electronics, is the swing arm. If you can make it yourself, you'll save some $$$. From your restoration work so far, it looks like you could possess the skills. I did not, and I had my fabricator do some other work as my bike started life as a bodge. You are already at a better starting point.

I've mentioned somewhere in this thread that I had to lie to my wife about how much it would cost to do this project. I think she may be on to me now though. But it is doable if you can do the other conversion work yourself.

I love this scooter as an electric. It is fun to ride, easy to maintain, and never leaves a puddle in the garage. Amongst the gear heads on this site (and there are some amazing technical talent here) you will be in a fringe cult. But like all cults, we are always looking for new members...

Thanks for jumping in. Your scooter is my inspiration! My wife is generally on boards, as far as that goes. So we shall see. I'm pretty confident that I can work up a swingarm. Maybe alter a motorcycle one that is close in dimensions. The good thing about a large frame is there is a lot of room to work with, so I have more options for batteries!

Lots of research and study to do, but I am really amped (bad pun) to get this project underway.

resurrecting an old thread.

I'm looking at doing a conversion on a smallframe with lots of dents and no engine.

figured I'd get this model (the plain cover with drum brake)

https://www.qsmotor.com/product/10inch-4000w-scooter-motor/

and figure out the rest. the company that does the conversion kits for SIP (Smeet's Classics) has an aluminum swingarm they'd sell me separately for 150 euro. I'm told they're working on a version that mounts the original single shock to one side like a stock Vespa.

I'll start my own thread for the process but figured I'd mention here that it is entirely doable for under $1k - get a nice strong motor and controllre and a decent battery... the rest you can piece together.

Saturn,

I really do hope you will join us in the electric world and do a conversion. There are two members here that have recently completed, or are in the process of, an electric conversion. Between the three of us, I'm sure we can provide assistance as you work through issues along the way.

As you have noticed already, the swing arm is the most difficult of the issues with this conversion. I hope Jim Von Baden, whose recently completed scooter was chronicled in the Not So Modern section, will weigh in since he built his own swing arm. He'll have additional insights into the problems and issues associated with the design. 150 Euro for a swing arm is a bargain if you can live with the drum brake and shock design.

I think I need to tell you that I don't think $1K will do it though. I'll ask the others for their opinion, but I'm pretty sure that a 72V 25+AH battery will cost that much on it's own. Add a controller, motor, and throttle and I would be surprised if you get out for less than $2k. I'm always open to surprises though, and I wouldn't discourage the idea of just diving in and building as you go.

In addition to Jim Von Baden, the other MV member is called EmVeeTee who is doing a Stella 4Kw conversion. Reach out, as these builds are better/easier with some assistance from those who have struggled also. I'm quite sure that they both can and will offer advice and encouragement as you progress.

Can't wait to see your build!

I think that Resistor is right in every way. The battery will run near $1K, and the other parts another $1K new. You may be able to find some used parts to bring it to $1K though.

As for the swingarm, 150 e\Euro is a bargain. I spent three solid days building mine from scratch. I could do it in a day now that I know what to do. I would love to check out your swingarm. There are some needs that should be met to ensure it will work.

I'll chime in as well. I'm in the home stretch of my large frame Stella conversion. Agree with both Resistor and Jim. Your battery is going to push $1K. The motor and controller will be $400-500 with shipping. There are lots of small incidental things that came up for me - wire, connectors, shrink tubing, etc. It adds up pretty quickly.

The pre-fab swing arm is attractive and that is a good price, but as you note you will need to stick with a drum brake. My Stella had a front disc brake and I wanted disc on the rear as well, so I know mine wasn't a minimal budget.

This project has been incredible fun for me so far and I'm getting pretty close to being on the road.

To tag on the brake, I have a stock drum front, and disc rear. The disc is WAY more powerful than the drum, and needed due to the increased power and speed potential.

That said, I believe the disc could be used with that swingarm, with minor mods.

the company that sells the motor (QSMotor) has versions with disc but I'm very unfamiliar with that setup. would I need to convert to hydraulic or is it mechanical and compatible with the vespa lever/cable? I assumed the drum would be sufficient since even on electric it's not going any faster than a factory vespa (55-ish mph) on average.

would be very interested in your thoughts on the swingarm as the one being offered cheap is the one pictured above from Smeets Classics and they say they've modified it to mount to the stock Vespa spring. not sure which I'd prefer - doing welding on the frame since it needs a new floorboard anyway, so fabbing up a mount for dual-spring wouldn't be too big of a deal (and might result in a better ride anyway).

PS if I do go with disc it would be interesting for sure (front and rear) - I figured I might eliminate the brake pedal and opt to re-factor the shift lever into a brake lever (weld the shifter in place so it doesn't rotate and fab up some sort of set screws to keep the steel tube in place).

might piss off purists but I'm saving an original smallframe from the junkyard at this point.

other thoughts: SIP electric speedometer, LED projector headlight, LED brake light / license plate light, multicolor (green/yellow/red) power+charge indicator LED where the headlight indicator would normally go, re-using the on/off switch in the headset, but putting a large battery cutoff switch where the fuel lever used to go (and welding up the choke hole).

PS #2 a random swingarm design I found - is the tab for a disc brake?

A lot to unpack here. Starting with the easy one, I don't really have any idea what the tab is for on that swing arm. The QS motors come with a bracket that attaches to the motor shaft for mounting the disc caliper. But the one depicted is in an odd place for caliper mounting.

The switch you've depicted is actually pretty massive in real life. I recommend a kill switch and a battery disconnect (for maintenance) switch. Since real estate inside the frame is at a premium, I use this marine circuit breaker as a disconnect. I think Jim uses the same one too. Small, light, and effective.


As for brakes, EmVeeTee installed a hydraulic foot brake, which is an option I probably would use if I built my scooter now. I think SIP sells them and it is awesome. I like the handlebar brake, but the hydraulics crowd an already small handlebar and you have to find a way for the hose to travel through the frame on their way to the back of the bike. If you do use the foot brake option, there is nothing for your left hand to do, since there's no more shifter, so you have to get past that.

As for the drum vs disc argument, I agree that you can stop a stock vespa with a drum brake, but you can stop faster with a disc. The hub motor is a giant electromagnet, heavy and a large spinning mass to bring under control. I would argue a disc is the better way to exert that control, but I also dislike telling another brother how to build a bike.

Dual shocks is indeed a better ride, but heavier than the mono shock design. If you can live with that, go for two. I think JimVonBaden and EmVeeTee would probably tell you the real problem in swing arm design is that the disc brake and the shock want to occupy the same space, and that results in some compromise on design. The drum brake is one compromise, while the shock and disc brake on opposite sides is another compromise. If you do go for dual shocks, I think you are locked into a drum brake, as there is no more room for a disc. Just food for thought.

It looks like you have some fabrication to do with your floorboard. There are a lot of members with some real skills in metal work on this site, so your progress will likely be followed closely. It might be slightly diluted since you're going electric, but welcome to the EV club.

this is all great info. I will likely go with disc front and rear.

one thing that could work:

remote hydraulics actuated by factory cables, maybe hide them in a glovebox

something I noticed on other designs is they had the reservoir and master cyl at the same level or lower than the brake, which can cause problems

if I can pull this off I may convert my lambretta to electric as well

Not sure what the tab is for, unless for a drum brake track bar. It would not do for a disc brake. That said, I saw that swingarm, and considered using it. Making the disc brake set-up work on it would be as easy as drilling a hole for the track arm on the disc brake mount.

SS Cap bolt shown here:


You can do hydraulic like I did with a lever grafted on the left handlebar, or a hydraulic kit that uses the stock brake pedal like others here have done.

isn't having it on the pedal too low?

Not an issue I guess. The bike stands tall.

I started a thread for my build

http://modernvespa.com/forum/post2458908#2458908

I love all the laughing, ooh, and aah out of him when riding it.
It sounds like he was having a blast!

Resistor, I am in the middle of a similar project, but for a Honda CT90. My inspiration was from a site called Select Obsession. I too used a 3000W QS motor, but mounted in a 17" motorcycle rim. For my battery, I went large, it is 35aH, 72V. 12"x8"x5.5" A little big to fit in a Vespa, but it mounts on my stock luggage rack. Since my design sketch, I have decided to put it in a large tail bag I have rather than a rigid enclosure.

Unlike Select Obsession, who mounts the battery where the engine was, I wanted to keep my frame un-altered. So, battery on rack and controller in a small enclosure where the engine was. Other components fit where the stock battery was.

I love it that you provided a wiring diagram. Select Obsession is a bit sketchy on this, though I have asked him to draw something up. I am going to follow the diagram that come with the controller/motor and make mods as required. I design low-voltage systems for HVAC, so pretty sure I can figure it out.

Lovely project! Mine won't be done till Spring 2022.

Here is the Select Obsession site: https://www.selectobsession.com/

re: Honda CT90 EV project:

What are the weights of the battery and controller?
I'd think that battery would be heavier, in which case, I'd want it down low, where the engine was, and put the controller up on the rack.

It is heavy, about 30 lbs. But that is less than a passenger, which these bikes were designed to take. Or a heavy rider. I am 180 and there are LOTS of folks well over 210 that ride these bikes; usually seated well back. It is also low to the rack at 5.5" and below the seat height. It is too big to put where the engine was without cutting and welding the frame. I want the option to go back to ICE if I want to someday...plus just can't stand the idea of cutting up the frame.

The motor and wheel is also very heavy...so, while it is sprung weight, I think that will help counterbalance any tail "yaw" from the battery. If anything I will have to watch out for unintentionally pulling a wheelie.

Goob,

That looks like a pretty cool project. My youngest had a PUCH Maxi and I begged him to let me convert it to electric (more dependable, faster than stock, etc), but he lives in NYC and the logistics were't in our favor. You have a little more hiding spots on the frame and a good plan, so you should be happy with the result. And 72v should get you all the speed you desire.

The select obsession design is a bit awkward with the big battery placement, and I think your design will be more aesthetically pleasing. I don't know how you intend to use your scooter, but you will want to secure the battery if you intend to park the bike. There are people out there who know these batteries are expensive and you don't want to enrich them without making them work hard for it.

As for wiring diagrams, my early efforts were a bit lame. A fellow member, JimVonBaden, built a P200 and used a wiring diagram that I thought was so good that I changed mine to match it. Here is his build thread: First Scooter, not my first project. (Now going electric!) (Page 10) There may be something this guy isn't good at, but I haven't been able to spot it.

For 12v power, I use a small converter you can buy on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Pro-Chaser-Regulator-Scooters-Bicycles/dp/B07GPZWG1S/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2WUIXP1F3SRW7&dchild=1&keywords=72v+to+12v+step+down+dc+converter&qid=1633277566&sprefix=72v+to+12%2Caps%2C222&sr=8-3. Your 12v power draw is actually quite low on a motorcycle, and it you go with some led's, it will be very low. A high volume horn will draw a lot of amps in short bursts, but you can put in a relay that is up to the task. I do recommend a loud horn since your bike will be nearly silent.

There may be some frustrating times coming as you try to put things together, but you will also have a great deal of satisfaction as you progress. Please, please show us your progress and the final product. It will be very cool!

That looks like a great project! My next may be a small motorcycle conversion!

I really want to do this project, do you know what motor they use?

I really have no idea based on the photo, but if I were doing it, I would use this motor: https://www.qsmotor.com/product/4000w-mid-drive-motor/. You'll surely have to fabricate a metal plate strong enough to withstand the torque of this motor, and likely build either a chain or belt drive from the mid-drive motor shaft. It will take a bit of engineering, but it will keep you from redesigning the swing arm, which you must do if you use a hub motor.

in my country you are not allowed to change the engine, so i want to do like the above project so that the police don't find out

This video.

the motor you sent is very good, but maybe the size is too big to put in vespa

The motor in the video looks like an Etek motor, which used to be made by Briggs & Stratton, as is now made by some other vendors. Here is a potential replacement: https://www.electricmotorsport.com/emc-r-me0708-pmdc-motor-24-48v-8-hp-cont-15-hp-pk.html. They also sell Motenergy radial mid-mount motors at Thunderstruck EV: https://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/motors-dc-and-pmac/. The size might be a better fit for your application.

Thanks.