Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:48 am

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2977
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2977
Location: London UK
Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:48 am linkquote
Definitely more interesting if you keep digging when in a hole. Not only will there be way more inlet width, there will be much increased crankcase volume, with the extra fly side diameter, web recess and the 5mm 110 rod packer. Is all win win win in terms of torque. All you have to do is make it work.
Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:53 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4014
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4014
Location: Nashville
Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:53 am linkquote
Jack221 wrote:
All you have to do is make it work.
And how hard can *that* be?!?
Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:26 am

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:26 am linkquote
Quote:
Definitely more interesting if you keep digging when in a hole
Well - that's gonna make the signature line...
Quote:
Not only will there be way more inlet width, there will be much increased crankcase volume, with the extra fly side diameter, web recess and the 5mm 110 rod packer. Is all win win win in terms of torque. All you have to do is make it work.
Uh huh. Could find myself with the motor on the bench/MHR cylinder bolted in place - sooner than later. Plan to start with some relatively tame timings out of the gate - but probably not as low as stock BGM. Assume MHR's ex port is more plug and play than the BGM was.

Bridsnest - haha - thanks.

Welding is gettin better by the day.
Cast aluminum is a bear - but it is teaching me some tricks.
Welding up an inlet pad is gonna be triple tough - but it feels inevitable.
Little more practice on these test cases - and then on to the real deal.
Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:31 am

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6145
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6145
Location: So Cal
Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:31 am linkquote
"So much has been done, exclaimed the soul of Frankenstein-more, far more, will I achieve; treading in the steps already marked, I will pioneer a new way, explore unknown powers, and unfold to the world the deepest mysteries of creation."

- M. Shelly, Frankenstein


Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:17 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:17 pm linkquote
Quote:
"So much has been done, exclaimed the soul of Frankenstein-more, far more, will I achieve; treading in the steps already marked, I will pioneer a new way, explore unknown powers, and unfold to the world the deepest mysteries of creation."

- M. Shelly, Frankenstein
That is actually the abridged version.
The full one ends:

...after I stop at Harbor Freight for some stuff.
Sat May 01, 2021 12:53 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
Sat May 01, 2021 12:53 pm linkquote
So I said to myself - self, what else should you be thinking about now that you have this welder thingy in your hand.

I mean - the welding hasn't been pretty - but it's felt at the edge of a break through - by which I mean - at any moment - I might burn a hole straight through the cases if I continue. So I continued.

I've been thinking about optimizing flow from inlet to cylinder. On my cases, there is a stud right in the way - though the landing for P200 and later model 150's is in the casting - so I could just tap that and move the stud.

The modern placement is better than the old - because the stud is out of the way from the inlet. However, the new placement is still not really optimized for flow. So My thinking is to create a new landing for the stud - by extending the cases. I used the practice cases to test the concept. Welding is also coming along. Think this has promise.


This would allow me to shape my inlet how I would like


Flow path and inlet volume could be optimized. That's fancy talk for "made bigger". (red is current shape)


So I took the practice cases - and cleaned up the area for adding material


And then built out about a 15mm shelf - this will get machined and dremeled to a nice shape.

Sat May 15, 2021 9:07 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
Sat May 15, 2021 9:07 pm linkquote
If you were looking for "leave well enough alone", you've come to the wrong place...

Pulled motor and threw it up on the bench.
Was just about to tear down and split cases - but it seamed kinda high up.
Next thing I knew - I had dismembered my stand and had the welder out.
Shocking.
I know.

Stripped down motor and split cases.
Came across all sorts of bodgery - all of it my own doing!
Kinda expected to find some of those high end shims cut up in to shards - you may recall - my piston keeps experiencing acupuncture from unknown metal shards. I'm still not sure where they are coming from.

Pics below of a CM Saturday.

Oh - and BTW - about a month ago I posted that I was getting some chatter when I let the clutch out. Have a look at the washer that site behind the clutch. Don't think this could have gotten past the clutch side seal - but I have definitely lost some metal...


Engine stand just seemed so tall - and unable on those feet


So I shortened it


And welded an old bearing on a piece of square tube


So now it rotates like a rotisserie, but also rotates around in a circle. There is a bolt that goes through the table and holds it tight. It's pretty nice to work with


Bolts on to front of table too - if I wanna get fancy.


My US prime bodgery. Thats the washer that holds my fly side seal in - I replaced the seal from the outside without spitting cases some time back...


That would be the washer that sits behind the clutch. The neatly machined indentation is - shall we say - not stock


Current state of affairs

Sat May 15, 2021 9:13 pm

Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2397
Location: Florence, OR
 
Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2397
Location: Florence, OR
Sat May 15, 2021 9:13 pm linkquote
It's always fun to get a glimpse into your shop and what you're up to. Always good stuff.

BTW, I put the piston in the end of the cylinder, then slid cylinder on studs enough to get the wrist pin in, and BAM, done! It all took of 30 seconds. Great tip - thanks mucho!
Sat May 15, 2021 10:04 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
Sat May 15, 2021 10:04 pm linkquote
Ha! Borne of desperation. I have no idea how people do it the normal way!
Glad someone else tried it.
Sun May 16, 2021 7:04 am

Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1909
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1909
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sun May 16, 2021 7:04 am linkquote
qascooter wrote:
It's always fun to get a glimpse into your shop and what you're up to. Always good stuff.

BTW, I put the piston in the end of the cylinder, then slid cylinder on studs enough to get the wrist pin in, and BAM, done! It all took of 30 seconds. Great tip - thanks mucho!
I must be doing something really wrong.
I have the studs removed
piston rings installed
circlip on the engine side installed
Slide the piston in place
Insert wrist pin
Put in the circle on the side facing me
Slide cylinder over piston and rings
Put the studs back in, I have a scribe mark on each one for how far to screw back in.
Sun May 16, 2021 7:15 am

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
Sun May 16, 2021 7:15 am linkquote
Well - you are in group A.
Seems a lot of people don't struggle at all!
For those of us in the remedial group that find ourselves wrestling with the most sensitive part in the motor - and fear pinching ring on top of locating pin as we man-handle:

Method qas' is referring to:
- Put piston pin clip on back side of pin
- Slide pin in to piston but only through front hole so its ready to go in to rod end bearing
- Flip cylinder over on bench - install piston so it's ALMOST up to the wrist pin
- Slide cylinder on to studs
- Turn crank to lift rod into place
- Press wrist (gudgeon) pin through rod bearing until it seats on already installed retaining clip on back side
- install front side retaining clip
- slide cylinder down the rest of the way and seat

This is particularly helpful with studs in, or if motor is still on scoot, 'cause it allows you to do the most sensitive part upside down on the bench with perfect view - rather than directly on the motor.

But I'm with you - if you can do it without trouble the normal way - hats off to you. I found myself wrestling and wondering how such a simple job could cause so much frustration!

🙂
Sun May 16, 2021 7:22 am

Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1909
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1909
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sun May 16, 2021 7:22 am linkquote
charlieman22 wrote:
Well - you are in group A.
Seems a lot of people don't struggle at all!
For those of us in the remedial group that find ourselves wrestling with the most sensitive part in the motor - and fear pinching ring on top of locating pin as we man-handle:

Method qas' is referring to:
- Put piston pin clip on back side of pin
- Slide pin in to piston but only through front hole so its ready to go in to rod end bearing
- Flip cylinder over on bench - install piston so it's ALMOST up to the wrist pin
- Slide cylinder on to studs
- Turn crank to lift rod into place
- Press wrist (gudgeon) pin through rod bearing until it seats on already installed retaining clip on back side
- install front side retaining clip
- slide cylinder down the rest of the way and seat

This is particularly helpful with studs in, or if motor is still on scoot, 'cause it allows you to do the most sensitive part upside down on the bench with perfect view - rather than directly on the motor.

But I'm with you - if you can do it without trouble the normal way - hats off to you. I found myself wrestling and wondering how such a simple job could cause so much frustration!

🙂
I've never been called normal, trying to figure out if I should be insulted or not.

Never realized there was a "correct" way to do it, it's just the way that works for me. I'll have to try it the other way next time to see how that works.
Mon May 17, 2021 1:19 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
Mon May 17, 2021 1:19 pm linkquote
Tore down cases to the bone yesterday - with a careful eye on where the shrapnel might have come from. Found plenty of shrapnel! - but need to divide between what was in crank case and what was in gear box.
My guess going in was that one of my precision shims used - that turned out not to be the case.


On the outside of the seal (my motor has bearing inside and seal to the outside) The thrust washer had been badly worn. The clutch is pushing on it and wearing a ring on the inside diameter. My seal remained totally in tact - so that metal stayed in the gear box.

But as the thrush washer got thinner on its inner lip - it also got hotter and more flexible. I found it was cupped - and pressing on the main seal.
The OD of the thrust washer was pressing the seal and the seal spring was rubbing the main bearing inside my crank case. This metal had a brassy center to it - which my piston shrapnel also had. I suspect this is what is in my piston top.

Has anyone else had their thrust washer (the washer that goes on the crank before the clutch is installed) degrade like that?
Feels like I should use a more robust thrust washer behind the clutch if I can make it work and have the clutch gears still align. Isn't there a thicker thrust washer from Piagio? Is there a hardened one?!


Overview of how I took the close up images - that is my thrust washer flipped upside down on top of the main seal


And here is the close up of the thrust washer. That worn groove was from being pressed hard on the crank shaft journal where it steps up for the seal. Anyone else ever experience this?


Next up was a close up of the main bearing (sits inside seal and could have been culprit. Note the worn groove around ID. Next pic shows close up of shrapnel.


This is the close up view - Clutch pressed on thrust washer and bowed it in toward crank. Trust washer pressed on seal. Seal pressed on main. Main bearing wore where seal's spring rubbed it. Root of issue seams to be warped thrust washer.

Mon May 17, 2021 4:06 pm

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6145
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6145
Location: So Cal
Mon May 17, 2021 4:06 pm linkquote
Maybe it's my iPhone but I'm not seeing any chunks of metal missing that look like the ones imbedded in the head.
Mon May 17, 2021 5:43 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
Mon May 17, 2021 5:43 pm linkquote
I hear ya - and to be honest - I am not certain.
You could be on to something.
There are a lot of metal bits from a lot of places.


Im sure that the thrust washer was compromised and pressed on the seal that pressed on the main bearing, and that is what wore the inner edge of the main bearing.
Those metal bits could have caused damage elsewhere - but Im not sure they are the alien in my piston.

Below are the pics.
You gotta keep in mind that I bought myself a $30 electronic microscope that is so damn good - it makes things look much larger than they are.
There is a male member joke there somewhere...

Here are some shots from past - and a few extra to ponder.


Picture of the main bearing. Note the groove that has been worn. I assume at some point it came off in flakes.


Super close up of the flakes on the edge of the main bearing - from the picture above. Note the brassy color


Alien in my piston


Alien removed and blown up (that texture is a paper towel)


Alien on my finger. Finger alien. Same one that was on the paper towel and in the top of the piston


Other possible donor. Chip of nikasil from cylinder. I don't see the gold/brassiness of the alien - but this coulda been it also

Mon May 17, 2021 7:14 pm

Hooked
PX 200
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 412

 
Hooked
PX 200
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 412

Mon May 17, 2021 7:14 pm linkquote
charlieman22 wrote:
Oh - and BTW - about a month ago I posted that I was getting some chatter when I let the clutch out. Have a look at the washer that site behind the clutch. Don't think this could have gotten past the clutch side seal - but I have definitely lost some metal...
Too awesome to see the progress...

Finally seeing some engine frankensteining coming back...
Mon May 17, 2021 7:16 pm

Hooked
PX 200
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 412

 
Hooked
PX 200
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 412

Mon May 17, 2021 7:16 pm linkquote
Christopher_55934 wrote:
I must be doing something really wrong.
I have the studs removed
piston rings installed
circlip on the engine side installed
Slide the piston in place
Insert wrist pin
Put in the circle on the side facing me
Slide cylinder over piston and rings
Put the studs back in, I have a scribe mark on each one for how far to screw back in.
Doing it the same way too...

I have a small mirror to make sure the top piston ring is located properly on the side you cant see properly...
Mon May 17, 2021 10:05 pm

Ossessionato
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 61 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 4084
Location: Oceanside, CA
 
Ossessionato
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 61 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 4084
Location: Oceanside, CA
Mon May 17, 2021 10:05 pm linkquote
Hmm. The brass flakes in the pics make me worry. Only brass near the main bearing is possibly in the crank big end bearing. With your microscope can you look between the crank webs at the big end bearing shims? See any more glitter?
Mon May 17, 2021 10:23 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
Mon May 17, 2021 10:23 pm linkquote
MJ - at some point I will do better.
I will press the pin out of that crank and we will look inside.
Crank is getting replaced - there is some nasty play in the large rod end bearing you are talking about - and not just side to side.

Main bearing seams to have a brassy color under the chromed exterior.
I will have to take a closer look to confirm. Ill try and get a few more pics up.

Below is another pic of my minor destruction.
It shows the main seal highly indented.

That brass ring is from the clutch. It was just sitting there when I pulled the clutch. I don't think its involved tho - I think my issue is the crank sliding in towards the fly side when clutch is engaged - allowing the clutch and thrust washer to press on the seal - and the seal to then press on the bearing on the other side of the seal.

Not sure if the clutch is toast. The busing you see there just slid back in to the clutch with no discernible play - seemed perfectly happy.



Tue May 18, 2021 4:25 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4014
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4014
Location: Nashville
Tue May 18, 2021 4:25 am linkquote
MJRally wrote:
Hmm. The brass flakes in the pics make me worry. Only brass near the main bearing is possibly in the crank big end bearing. With your microscope can you look between the crank webs at the big end bearing shims? See any more glitter?
I'm with MJ and vote for the crank bearing/bushing, too. Especially since you said there's a lot of play in it.

I also agree that the flakes on the piston head could have chipped off the main bearing.

As to the infamous Alien Chip, I don't know where that might have come from at this point. Could it have come loose from somewhere around the main bearing seats? (I'm guessing here and assuming that it actually *is* brass and not just brassy-looking).
Tue May 18, 2021 8:49 am

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
Tue May 18, 2021 8:49 am linkquote
We will get a look at the large end rod bearing before all is said and done.
The brass thrush washers either side of the rod large end look to be ok.
The actual alien chip was magnetic - so it was "brassy" in look - but it clearly was not brass. Also too hard to be.

As for the "glitter" I showed on the main bearing edge - in close up - with brassy color - that has got to be from the main bearing itself.
Obviously its been badly worn - you can see the large groove.
That brassy colored glitter was on the outside of the main bearing - same side as the groove - and trapped between the seal and the main bearing itself.
Am fairly certain THAT material was from the main bearing itself.

The alien in my piston? Well - that's harder to say. Maybe it came off the fly side seal. IDK! That metal has some gold hue to it and it is about the right thickness. It's also magnetic.

My main concern is identifying the root issues. As I see them:
1. Crank was moving in and out.
- That is the genesis of the large end bearing on the rod getting worn and wonky.
- That's also the cause of various metal flakes and worn grooves.
2. And the root cause of the crank moving? Well - I think that goes back to my clutch side main bearing not being in perfect alignment. It started life with a cant - and something had to wear in order for the crank to spin freely - which it did after break in. But it likely also shortened the usable life of the crank.

My goal it so improve alignment of the main bearings on this re-build.
No easy task - but that should bring me back to square and give me a longer engine life - not that this one did terribly. For a tuned motor - that was run hard as hell - with a sidecar on it - I got what I am guessing is about 4500-5000 miles. Maybe even a bit more. Will see if I can do it again and double that!


Bearing is canted. Subtle but its there. It's high by about .4mm where the "9001" printing is. And its low 180° around the other side. The brass bushing is both slightly canted - and the bearing is slightly canted within that bushing.


Close up of high side of bearing

Tue May 18, 2021 9:30 am

Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1770
Location: UK (South East)
 
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1770
Location: UK (South East)
Tue May 18, 2021 9:30 am linkquote
CM, forgive me but I've kind of lost sight of why you are pursuing things with this engine casing, rather than opting for a replacement PX/Pinasco/Malossi case. Is this purely a sandbox for your ingenuity and experimentation, or is the motor destined for production use, with the BGM or the MHR 177?
Tue May 18, 2021 9:48 am

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6145
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6145
Location: So Cal
Tue May 18, 2021 9:48 am linkquote
Post a pic of the inside of the clutch seal.
Tue May 18, 2021 12:02 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
Tue May 18, 2021 12:02 pm linkquote
Quote:
CM, forgive me but I've kind of lost sight of why you are pursuing things with this engine casing, rather than opting for a replacement PX/Pinasco/Malossi case. Is this purely a sandbox for your ingenuity and experimentation, or is the motor destined for production use, with the BGM or the MHR 177?
The answer is: yes.
...It's a combination.

The first part is - you are seeing pictures over the last 4 pages of more than one motor. I have a spare set of bodge cases that was given to me to practice on. They were destined for the trash by prior owner - and my initial work looked like it might hasten - but then I got command of the welding - and kinda started to both rehab them and machine them for 62mm crank.

Then starting this weekend - I tore down my actual bodge cases and started looking at everything under a microscope and sharing.
No welding or machining has been done on those yet.

To answer your question - I'm both using this as my sandbox - and rehabbing for my build. My practice bodge cases have the inlet all welded up.
It started as a total disaster - but then I managed to get control of the process. If I could get access to a mill - I might just save them - for some crazy build.

So Cal - have a look below. Old alien piece found - it definitely did not come from main bearing - it has a thickness and a shape to it that looks like it was off a flat piece.

Then there is this other idea I have... Jack - are you out there?
Below is a concept I have that needs some vetting - I know, I know... but bear with me here. With my new found skills - I was thinking about relocating the intake on a rotary. I could then flip the carb around and have it shoot straight in to the cylinder skirt area. This would of course give me whacky inlet timings. What lever would I need to pull to be able to use an off the shelf crank - but retard the inlet timings back to earth? A longer stroke? A lifted cylinder? Would either help?


The alien (kept it)


Up close


Prospective donor


Close up of cut/worn area. It's possible that when I made my "replaceable" fly side seal - I left some burrs that got rubbed off with use - and found their way to my piston


Concept Gonzo. Weld up a new inlet pad and cut it so that it's moved closer to the cylinder. Makes room for carb to be spun backwards and mounted directly (still under stock cowl).How could I get the inlet timings back to my favored world.

Tue May 18, 2021 2:29 pm

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2977
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2977
Location: London UK
Tue May 18, 2021 2:29 pm linkquote
Couple of points. Project Gonzo is a no go. It would work but such a waste if effort. I doubt it would go noticeably better than it would the other way around.

By what's happened to the clutch side and crank, I think these old style cases are at their limit. The crank side play floats in the old style casings. Limited by the flyside bearing. P cases clamp the crank end float to the clutch side bearing. What's happened on the clutch side with the damaged washer, seal and bearing will happen again, without some difficult modifications.

That's a lot of sealer on the cylinder base. Looks like it's blocking ports.

Swa45 is onto something. I think you're ready for VR1 cases. Going reed and full P crank will fix everything.
Tue May 18, 2021 3:36 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
Tue May 18, 2021 3:36 pm linkquote
You just typed that to a guy who has a side car. On a scooter. With a sub frame. That leans. With a steering damper. Just sayin'.

Interesting point about P style cases.
They have the bearing on the outside of the seal.
Not sure its my power output as much as that mongo Super Strong clutch I have pressing the crank in toward the fly side when I squeeze the clutch.
And of course my iron strong grip.

Now that you point that out - I may have some relief from that in my build.
I've opted for the DRT replaceable seal.
It's a chunk of machined aluminum that is stiffer than the standard seal - is not going to flex.
I'll look at it and consider how I might bond a thrust bushing to it so that if the standard thrust bushing should want to come in contact - it will spin.
Perhaps a brass one that is a sacrificial replaceable thing.
Have to ponder.
Thanks.
All: Does the thrust washer of a P series motor (the one between clutch and main bearing) actually sit on the main bearing - or is there a gap?! If yes - how much?
Quote:
Swa45 is onto something. I think you're ready for VR1 cases. Going reed and full P crank will fix everything.
Where is your sense of adventure man?!
I get that it seam's all complicated - but check out what Craig is having to do to fit a crank in his $1000 VR1 cases...
Quote:
Project Gonzo is a no go. It would work but such a waste if effort. I doubt it would go noticeably better than it would the other way around.
Bull - meet red flag

🙂


Standard seal - it's steal backed - but flexible


DRT seal - its rigid - though it's aluminum. Perhaps if I bond a brass or steel thrust washer where the green circle is - then the if the clutch tried to push in - it would bottom out on this.

Tue May 18, 2021 6:58 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8100
Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8100
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue May 18, 2021 6:58 pm linkquote
1. Could you do something with this type of thrust bearing? Often used for motorcycle clutches from what I see.



2. What do you have against reeds?
Tue May 18, 2021 7:23 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
 
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62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Location: california
Tue May 18, 2021 7:23 pm linkquote
Ginch!!

1. Like.
2. I'm not really sure what my mental block on reeds is.
- The perceived noise?
- The high-rise apartment complex under the carb?
- I dunno.

Maybe my second bodge cases (seen being welded up two or three pages ago) will become my reed build.
Perhaps I will add some metal and sort out how to fit a set of V force reeds that feed right into the cylinder skirt so I don't have to have the carb set up so high on a riser.

Good to see you in these parts.
Tue May 18, 2021 8:20 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8100
Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8100
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue May 18, 2021 8:20 pm linkquote
charlieman22 wrote:
Good to see you in these parts.
I lurk a bit these days...

Remember the Indo guy we talked to about his cases with the welded in reed? He did pretty well and with your resources and equipment could potentially do much better.

Think that thrust bearing might help with your clutch issue?
Tue May 18, 2021 9:14 pm

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62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
 
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62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Location: california
Tue May 18, 2021 9:14 pm linkquote
Quote:
Remember the Indo guy we talked to about his cases with the welded in reed?
Remember? You are asking the guy that thinks Zeppelin I was the best cover album of all time.

Which is to say - I am all about annexing and combining other's good ideas.
You were the one that first mentioned aiming the carb in the direction of flow.
The Indo kid had welded up his cases and filled them in.
The VRI cases also have the reed version inlet pushed forward.
I was just pondering - what if you applied that to rotary - since I have gone all John Henry on this thing (look him up...)

Will it help with Rotary in the end?
I have no idea.
But - the three potential benefits would be:
1. Get carb even closer to crank - and make room for a fat carb to sit under a stock VBB cowl.
2. Direct line from carb to piston skirt area
3. Less crank for the gas air mixture to have to flow through the middle of.

That last point may have some actual real life merit.
I have a couple pics below showing the gas flow pattern - there would be a lot less crank in the way if the pad was on the front edge.

If I wasn't so lazy, I would go ahead and figure out what has to happen to get inlet timings to be reasonable if I moved it there.

What's the IC side of of a bone stock crank?
My fancy ones are -3 or -5.
Is a bone stock one + some number?

Couple pics below better illustrate.


Current no crank


Concept no crank


Current w/cank


Concept w/crank

Tue May 18, 2021 9:40 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8100
Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8100
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue May 18, 2021 9:40 pm linkquote
I'm just thinking with reed you can dispense with possible inlet timing issues and just get weldin'.

Btw I like that you're moving the stud in the inlet area like that guy Preparazione Vespa PX LML Star. Nice one.
Tue May 18, 2021 10:06 pm

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62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Location: california
 
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Location: california
Tue May 18, 2021 10:06 pm linkquote
Well - that stud is just dead smack in the way - and so I think I will address it when I fix this thing up.

As for reeds... well - that will have to be considered on the spare motor.
For this build - I'm sticking with rotary - and this whole discussion on flipping the carb and moving the inlet will have to hold.

My little homemade boring machine cracked when I tried to resurface an inlet pad - so I'm going to have to solve that before I can really move forward on this.

But I have a plan...
Wed May 19, 2021 3:43 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4014
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4014
Location: Nashville
Wed May 19, 2021 3:43 am linkquote
I love my reeds. Lets the motor breathe soooo much.

As to perceived noise...once you put a performance pipe on the bike, any incremental reed noise is...well...lost in the noise...
Wed May 19, 2021 6:01 am

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2977
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2977
Location: London UK
Wed May 19, 2021 6:01 am linkquote
Quote:
DRT seal - its rigid - though it's aluminum. Perhaps if I bond a brass or steel thrust washer where the green circle is - then the if the clutch tried to push in - it would bottom out on this.
DRT made this solid seal for a good reason but it wasn't so a thrust washer could run against it. The most important one would be friction. It would be constantly spinning against it. Seals getting hot is bad and the friction might cost a few bhp. Double what is even theoretical from your reverse carb.

The reason we all say go reed is because they are more powerful. And not by a small amount. This is not because they are better than rotary but just because they are way bigger. Build the P200 crank rotary, see how it goes. Next blow up use better cases.
Wed May 19, 2021 6:08 am

Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, PX200(ish...), US 50 Special in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 422
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
 
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, PX200(ish...), US 50 Special in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 422
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Wed May 19, 2021 6:08 am linkquote
charlieman22 wrote:
I get that it seam's all complicated - but check out what Craig is having to do to fit a crank in his $1000 VR1 cases...
Yeah, it took a good 30 minutes to prep it, and 10 to cut it*. And I'm not exactly chucking in a standard crank.

I reckon your problem solving brain is enjoying the challenge, so have at it and enjoy. I look forward to what we'll all learn and see when you lift your eyes and discover the joy of playing with more adaptable and expandable later cases and toys.
charlieman22 wrote:
My little homemade boring machine
Trust me, we all found it interesting...



*Not counting the 5 year learning curve before the owner would let me use the mill unsupervised.
Wed May 19, 2021 7:48 am

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62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Location: california
 
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62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Posts: 2478
Location: california
Wed May 19, 2021 7:48 am linkquote
Quote:
charlieman22 wrote:
I get that it seam's all complicated - but check out what Craig is having to do to fit a crank in his $1000 VR1 cases...
Click bait...
Quote:
DRT made this solid seal for a good reason but it wasn't so a thrust washer could run against it. The most important one would be friction. It would be constantly spinning against it. Seals getting hot is bad and the friction might cost a few bhp. Double what is even theoretical from your reverse carb.
I don't plan to have it in contact - at any time - unless the crank starts to move. The idea would be to backstop future wear and go from 4500 miles of engine life to 9K miles. Surely I'll break something else first...

Reeds = more flow = more power over all. They are the standard. I get it.
New cases - of course I'm jealous. Have you seen how beautiful they are?
No small comedy that I have a bodgey scoot with a subframe welded in, that I am doing back flips to keep the original cases for.

But yes - I am enjoying the build.
I see a certain beauty in achieving a torquey 20HP motor on the original cases - which I suspect will be the approximate outcome/ and a ton of fun to ride.
Being inside the box of original cases has me welding cast aluminum and learning some machining - so the process itself is building my skill set for future projects - of which I have a few in mind...

Craig - did you do the cutting? That's pretty cool. Looked like it must have been done CNC? How did you set up the cases to be centered/ tell the machine where to cut if yes?
Wed May 19, 2021 8:28 am

Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, PX200(ish...), US 50 Special in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 422
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
 
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, PX200(ish...), US 50 Special in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 422
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Wed May 19, 2021 8:28 am linkquote
charlieman22 wrote:
Craig - did you do the cutting? That's pretty cool. Looked like it must have been done CNC? How did you set up the cases to be centered/ tell the machine where to cut if yes?
I needed an adapter plate cut to put a Toyota gearbox into a small chassis Triumph a dozen years ago. I was introduced to a metrologist who's an ex toolmaker, and he did the cutting while I (computer nerd) stood a safe 15 feet away from the spinning finger ripper. Over the next few years we became friends and he taught me how to run all his machines.

To cut the cases I clamped them down to the table, then used an edge finder in the spindle to roughly find the centre of the bearing hole. Then I swapped it for a dial gauge in an angled mount, which I turned slowly by hand, adjusting the table till it was entered within 100th of a mm.


Then I wound the knee down and swapped in a 12mm end mill. I could have used a rotary table if the mill wasn't CNC, but this one has party tricks. The mill is awesome - you can feed it standard CNC code, but, for fast small jobs you can conversationally program it direct.



This was a 2 line program. Having set the centre and height of my part, I just told it to cut a ring around 0x0 with a 50mm OD and 38mm ID using the 12mm cutter, running 4 passes to go down a total of 21.1mm.

Spin the tool, squirt some oil, press go.


Took about 30 minutes to do the first case, probably 15 for the second. Actual cutting time could have been a lot faster, but I was working slowly and carefully because I haven't run the mill for over 12 months, and the cases are too expensive to screw up!

Nice toy to have access to, I've made some cool stuff with it.
Wed May 19, 2021 8:44 am

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
Wed May 19, 2021 8:44 am linkquote
Very cool.
Great mate to have.
Recent rabbit hole of YouTube videos allows that to actually make sense to me.
- Lord I would have been nervous pushing go on the first round. Perhaps tempted to take ghost pass to make sure I wasn't turning $1000 into aluminum chips on the floor.
Very nice outcome from the looks of it.
Helpful.
Thanks for posting.
Wed May 19, 2021 11:43 am

Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2516

 
Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2516

Wed May 19, 2021 11:43 am linkquote
So freaking awesome to follow your work.
Mon May 31, 2021 7:46 am

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2478
Location: california
Mon May 31, 2021 7:46 am linkquote
Been a while since I updated.
Long story short - with just the good bits.

About a month ago - went to see a guy to get my cases milled.
He didn't want the job - but offered to sel me his CNC Bridgeport.
But I didn't want a mill - certainly not a CNC version...
Or did I?

So I made him an offer - but he said he no longer wanted to sell it.
Spurned, I set up an alert for milling machines on Craigs List.
E mail dinged throughout the day.
"CL Alert! Milling machine."

Most were well (well) worn out Bridgeport clones.
Some were Bridgeports.
All were expensive and not in very good shape.
I also got some notifications that turned out to be pasta makers, or sewing machines.

Then one popped up and when I opened it - it said "free scrap metal"
but at the bottom of the add, it also said: "you can have my milling machine if you have a really big trailer".


So I rented one


And I bought some heavy duty steel U channel


And I welded it in to a couple of stands to bolt to the bottom, and painted them


And I stopped at the car wash on the way home


And did a bit of this


And plenty of that


And its starting to look like this.

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