Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:55 am

Enthusiast
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 98
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
 
Enthusiast
2008 MP3 400
Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 98
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:55 am linkquote
What oil levels are sensed with this...engine, crankcase, hydraulics...?
Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:02 pm

Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 22154
Location: Nashville, Indiana
 
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 22154
Location: Nashville, Indiana
Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:02 pm linkquote
Engine oil pressure
Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:52 pm

Member
2016 Piaggio MP3 500ie
Joined: 17 Mar 2021
Posts: 22
Location: San Francisco
 
Member
2016 Piaggio MP3 500ie
Joined: 17 Mar 2021
Posts: 22
Location: San Francisco
Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:52 pm linkquote
What it means is your engine oil is really low. Time to top it off.
Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:21 pm

Hooked
50cc Beo, MP3 400 2012, BigBeo 2003
Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Chelyabinsk, Russia
 
Hooked
50cc Beo, MP3 400 2012, BigBeo 2003
Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Chelyabinsk, Russia
Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:21 pm linkquote
Nope. What it means is low oil pressure in lubrication circuit. That could be caused by low oil level, clogged oil channels, dead oil pump, dead oil pressure sensor or loose wire. Probably something else too.
Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:52 am

Hooked
Piaggio MP3 500
Joined: 21 Nov 2017
Posts: 312
Location: Austin, TX
 
Hooked
Piaggio MP3 500
Joined: 21 Nov 2017
Posts: 312
Location: Austin, TX
Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:52 am linkquote
Does the flickering stop when the engine is revved? If so, then the pressure is just barely enough to turn the light off at idle, which is indicative of a bad oil pump, clogged sump, bad oil pressure switch. Loose connection would flicker all the time. Does it happen more when the engine is hot? That's an indicator that the pressure really is getting too low and it's time to rebuild the oil pump. Or use heavier oil.
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:13 am

Addicted
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 565
Location: Belgium
 
Addicted
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 565
Location: Belgium
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:13 am linkquote
Using the wrong grade oil can also cause the oil pressure light to come on.
Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:31 am

Hooked
50cc Beo, MP3 400 2012, BigBeo 2003
Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Chelyabinsk, Russia
 
Hooked
50cc Beo, MP3 400 2012, BigBeo 2003
Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Chelyabinsk, Russia
Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:31 am linkquote
For example, which viscosity and at which temp?
Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:10 am

Addicted
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 565
Location: Belgium
 
Addicted
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 565
Location: Belgium
Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:10 am linkquote
Whatever the manufacturer prescribes in the owner's and/or service manual.

For the MP3, I use Agip/Eni 5W-40 PG (Piaggio Group) iRide or iRide racing oil and nothing else.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/ENI-i-Ride-PG-5W-40-litre/dp/B006NJKO6M



eni-i-RIDE-PG-5W-40.pdf
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Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:25 am

Hooked
50cc Beo, MP3 400 2012, BigBeo 2003
Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Chelyabinsk, Russia
 
Hooked
50cc Beo, MP3 400 2012, BigBeo 2003
Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Chelyabinsk, Russia
Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:25 am linkquote
At what temp and what viscosity of oil can cause the light to come on?
Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:48 am

Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 22154
Location: Nashville, Indiana
 
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 22154
Location: Nashville, Indiana
Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:48 am linkquote
sbaert wrote:
Using the wrong grade oil can also cause the oil pressure light to come on.
I have never heard of this before but I suppose it could be true.
Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:08 am

Addicted
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 565
Location: Belgium
 
Addicted
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 565
Location: Belgium
Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:08 am linkquote
Using too thick an oil weight on a high revvin engine with a small oil pump & capacity in very cold climates is asking for trouble.

The factory approved oil almost flows like water.
Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:31 am

Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 22154
Location: Nashville, Indiana
 
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 22154
Location: Nashville, Indiana
Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:31 am linkquote
Probably so but I have never heard of it affecting the pressure. I guess if you used gear oil it might.

Here's a pretty objective video on the subject of oil that I just posted over in General.

Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:41 am

Hooked
50cc Beo, MP3 400 2012, BigBeo 2003
Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Chelyabinsk, Russia
 
Hooked
50cc Beo, MP3 400 2012, BigBeo 2003
Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Chelyabinsk, Russia
Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:41 am linkquote
The oil viscosity numbers of SAE are in Celsius degrees: first number is the lowest temp+30, when the oil becomes usable in cold, and the second number is upper temp when the oil is still good (not too much thin).

So, 0w30 means that the oil is TOTALLY FINE TO BE USED between -30 and +30 degrees of Celsius. 10w40 (as recommended) is TOTALLY FINE for -20 and +40.

So, sbaert, what is the temp when the engine oil is not usable (OR cause the oil light to be on)? And what viscosity exactly?
Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:50 am

Addicted
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 565
Location: Belgium
 
Addicted
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 565
Location: Belgium
Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:50 am linkquote
As I said, in very cold climates, starting around -20C. And yeah, I know most will say "but I don't ride during winter months" but I do.

So choosing a oil that works and protects the engine during the low temps and high end is very important.

Piaggio recommends a MA or MA2 rated oil in a weight of 5W-40, not 0-30. Yes, there is such as thing as oil being too thin or too free flowing.

BTW, here is a relevant video on the topic of using the proper oil.

Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:03 am

Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 22154
Location: Nashville, Indiana
 
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 22154
Location: Nashville, Indiana
Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:03 am linkquote
sbaert wrote:
As I said, in very cold climates, starting around -20C. And yeah, I know most will say "but I don't ride during winter months" but I do.

So choosing a oil that works and protects the engine during the low temps and high end is very important.

Piaggio recommends a MA or MA2 rated oil in a weight of 5W-40, not 0-30. Yes, there is such as thing as oil being too thin or too free flowing.

BTW, here is a relevant video on the topic of using the proper oil.


So the first point in the video about higher revs does not say what the difference is between the oils but only the engines. What is the difference between motorcycle and car oil with the same specs that make one better for higher revving engines?

The second point that car oil contains an anti-friction additive so is not usable for a motorcycle's wet clutch. A valid concern if you are riding a Goldwing but since our scooters do not have a wet clutch this does not apply.

The third point about viscosity seems elementary. You need to use the correct ISO rated oil so your smaller parts get lubed quicker.
Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:05 pm

Addicted
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 565
Location: Belgium
 
Addicted
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 565
Location: Belgium
Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:05 pm linkquote
Without going into the rabbit hole of yet another oil thread, it is safe to say that not all oils are created equal in the same manner that not all blood is the same.

Each has its own application and specific uses.

Motorcycle oils are formulated to deal with higher stresses and higher rpms, and they have far more additives and detergents since the oil capacity is a fraction of what is typically found in a car. We don't drive our cars continually at 7K rpm, let alone 17K as on some bikes.

Car oils are designed to promote internal cleanliness and maximize efficiency while minimizing wear & emissions.

When you are dealing with cars that are more exotic, sometimes specific oils are created just for that particular application. Case in point, when the Ferrari Enzo whose redline starts at 8200rpm was created Shell was tasked by Ferrari to create a dedicated 10W-60 oil just for this one model because no other oil in the marketplace at the time satisfied the durability needs that engine requires.

If owners strayed from using this oil, the warranty was voided by Ferrari should any engine related issue crop up. And IIRC, this Shell Helix oil cost in the early millennium just under $100 per quart X 12 quarts resulting in a oil change cost of around $1500 including the 2 oil filters.

If that owner had decided to save a nickel by getting BMW's 10W-60 juice supplied by Castrol do you really think Ferrari would back that engine?

As for the MP3, since the factory approved oil is only a Amazon click away and it is very inexpensive to boot why mess about? Oil is cheap, engines are not.
Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:20 pm

Hooked
2020 Liberty 150, 2020 MP3-500
Joined: 06 Oct 2020
Posts: 226
Location: Reno
 
Hooked
2020 Liberty 150, 2020 MP3-500
Joined: 06 Oct 2020
Posts: 226
Location: Reno
Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:20 pm linkquote
Anything with even a partial wet sump oil system needs non detergent oil
Gears gnashing or splashing cranks will foam up oil
The crank and the valves are oiled by the pump, the piston pin & connecting rod are oiled by what ever splashes around
Change the oil, don't run out is far more important than the specific type
Bikes run hot, air cooled even hotter run, motors get old, a bigger top number can reduce consumption
Any sort of multi-weight non detergent is fine, synthetic better,

Make sure it has some oil
Check it after a oil change cold where you park so you know how the oil level sits on the dip stick, do it the easiest way possible, so you won't skip
Change it, done riding for the year, change it,
Change the filter if equipped at least as often as the book says & change the oil

The oil pump can lose prime, depending on the exact position the pump stops in, the zero weight oil doesn't make it better, super sensitive oil pressure switch doesn't make it better
You may have to blip the throttle to bleed the air out
I see it on both the air & water cooled 2020's I have, seems to be getting better as the hours add up, easier to notice on the MP3 as the dash lights are much larger
Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:40 pm

Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 22154
Location: Nashville, Indiana
 
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 22154
Location: Nashville, Indiana
Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:40 pm linkquote
sbaert wrote:
Without going into the rabbit hole of yet another oil thread, it is safe to say that not all oils are created equal in the same manner that not all blood is the same.

Each has its own application and specific uses.

Motorcycle oils are formulated to deal with higher stresses and higher rpms, and they have far more additives and detergents since the oil capacity is a fraction of what is typically found in a car. We don't drive our cars continually at 7K rpm, let alone 17K as on some bikes.

Car oils are designed to promote internal cleanliness and maximize efficiency while minimizing wear & emissions.

When you are dealing with cars that are more exotic, sometimes specific oils are created just for that particular application. Case in point, when the Ferrari Enzo whose redline starts at 8200rpm was created Shell was tasked by Ferrari to create a dedicated 10W-60 oil just for this one model because no other oil in the marketplace at the time satisfied the durability needs that engine requires.

If owners strayed from using this oil, the warranty was voided by Ferrari should any engine related issue crop up. And IIRC, this Shell Helix oil cost in the early millennium just under $100 per quart X 12 quarts resulting in a oil change cost of around $1500 including the 2 oil filters.

If that owner had decided to save a nickel by getting BMW's 10W-60 juice supplied by Castrol do you really think Ferrari would back that engine?

As for the MP3, since the factory approved oil is only a Amazon click away and it is very inexpensive to boot why mess about? Oil is cheap, engines are not.
So if the specs all match then what formulation is different? I'm really asking not trying to be difficult. I cannot find any difference other than those already discussed.
Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:37 pm

Hooked
50cc Beo, MP3 400 2012, BigBeo 2003
Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Chelyabinsk, Russia
 
Hooked
50cc Beo, MP3 400 2012, BigBeo 2003
Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 363
Location: Chelyabinsk, Russia
Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:37 pm linkquote
C'mon, still no answer even about the temp at which an oil in a scooter can become unusable or cause the oil light to appear. Why going into harder things like differences of mc and car oils it the buddy can't even explain his own words?
Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:05 pm

Addicted
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 565
Location: Belgium
 
Addicted
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 565
Location: Belgium
Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:05 pm linkquote
As long as the oil you intend to use does not contain the sunburst logo on the back of the bottle indicating "energy conserving", you could potentially use that oil BUT with a caveat.

Use it either as a top-off or temporarily and then replace with a motorcycle rated oil as soon as possible

Even with the MP3, I change the oil at 3.25k mi (5K km) intervals.

Motorcycle oils are spiced up by a factor of 10 to help offset the high stresses, heat, and small oil capacities. Also, since bikes are mostly used periodically they tend to be prone to corrossion which a motorcycle rated oil is formulated to minimize or eliminate. Ditto on oil burn-off. Ditto on viscosity loss.

While modern full synthetic car oils have come closer to meeting motorcycle needs vs. say 20 years ago, they are still different enough to warrant their own product line. In fact, some modern synthetic oils are harmful to older engines since these newer oils have gone "eco" and lack crucial components such as ZDDP to minimize wear. I have worked on several young classic Mercedes engines from the mid-80s to early 90s whose cam lobes were wiped out due to inadvertent use of modern synthetics. Sure, the correct oil weight was used but the components were being starved due to the lubricant not having the proper additives to protect against wear.

Does this happen overnight, no. But consistent and prolonged use does have a negative impact. Hence why I as a vehicle mechanic can only say use the correct product for your specific application.

Modern synthetics are not the cure for proper and pro active vehicle care, unlike what some manufacturers such as BMW might want you to believe with ridiculous oil service intervals of over 15K mi (25K km). Even the best synthetic oils start to break down significantly after 6K mi (10K km) and are pretty much done at 10K mi (15K km). With a conventional oil, change it hot and change it often ideally every 3-5K mi max.

The only common thing I see between car and motorcycle oil is the time factor. No matter what you ride, how far you ride, or how long you ride, ALL oil must be changed yearly at a minimum or a preset distance whichever comes first.
Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:46 pm

Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 22154
Location: Nashville, Indiana
 
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 22154
Location: Nashville, Indiana
Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:46 pm linkquote
So it's still just a feeling then? When you say spiced up can you say what spices are used?
Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:48 pm

Addicted
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 565
Location: Belgium
 
Addicted
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 565
Location: Belgium
Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:48 pm linkquote
It has nothing to do with feelings, just decades of experience working on engines.

"spiced up" = additional additives, detergents, and other packages to maintain oil stability and compensate for higher compression, higher revs, higher temps, smaller oil capacities, and more dirt build up. You can do your own research if you need to know every detail.

Since this thread is going in circles, I will just leave this food for thought. Why would Piaggio go through the trouble of having a dedicated oil made just for them if it is all the same??? All I know is that filters, fluids, brakes and tires are the last place you want to nickel and dime on. At the end of the day, it is your bike and your choice. 'nuff said

Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:48 am

Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 22154
Location: Nashville, Indiana
 
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 22154
Location: Nashville, Indiana
Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:48 am linkquote
sbaert wrote:
It has nothing to do with feelings, just decades of experience working on engines.

"spiced up" = additional additives, detergents, and other packages to maintain oil stability and compensate for higher compression, higher revs, higher temps, smaller oil capacities, and more dirt build up. You can do your own research if you need to know every detail.

Since this thread is going in circles, I will just leave this food for thought. Why would Piaggio go through the trouble of having a dedicated oil made just for them if it is all the same??? All I know is that filters, fluids, brakes and tires are the last place you want to nickel and dime on. At the end of the day, it is your bike and your choice. 'nuff said

Marketing is the short answer. Exclusive endorsement of a consumable product like oil have value.

I have done research and cannot find specific info on the additives. That is why I'm asking you since you seem sure they exist. Not saying you are wrong BTW.
Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:37 pm

Hooked
2020 Liberty 150, 2020 MP3-500
Joined: 06 Oct 2020
Posts: 226
Location: Reno
 
Hooked
2020 Liberty 150, 2020 MP3-500
Joined: 06 Oct 2020
Posts: 226
Location: Reno
Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:37 pm linkquote
Piaggio doesn't make oil anymore than yamaha or honda make lubricants or sealants
Branded products are a good revenue stream

Bearings spinning & pistons sliding are the same beyond minor differences in details
On the spectrum of small internal combustion power plants Piaggio products are in the middle in terms of operating conditions & design

Sticky Frog do gasoline next
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