Modern Vespa

Just wondering why Piaggio lists a JASO specific oil for our scoots, as the mp3 500 Master engine, as well as probably most "scooter CVT" motors have no "wet clutch" per SE.
Similar to Harley motors, the oil only lubricates the engine.
Just food for thought. I use and will continue to use a "JASO" specific oil.

Our scooters spend much of their lives on the wrong side of 5000 rpm. Most of these small engines are in a fairly high state of tune and are manufactured to very, very tight tolerances. The stresses these engines must endure for long periods of time mean that they also require very high quality lubricants, hence the call out for high end oils.

Comparing the needs of one of these high strung little buggers to one or two litres of big twin is really like comparing apples to oranges.

Doubt it? Take a Harley out and try to exceed 5000 rpm for an hour.

I don't doubt your reasoning. It's just that there are many "car oils" that can meet and exceed the rpm requirements of our motors.
Mobil One for example, was formulated in race cars that routinely rev very high.
It was just the "JASO" indication that had me curious.
Again, not trying to start an oil war.

Here we go again, another oil thread.

What is high revvin for a car (7K), is barely above idle for a motorcycle that can rev up to 17K.

Many people believe oil is oil. Maybe 50 years ago. Not so today.

Try running a standard oil in a diesel engine that has a particulate filter. It will clog up that DPF and leave your wallet more than empty.

I only use the Eni/Agip as specified by Piaggio and nothing else AND I change the oil + filter every 5K km (3K miles) or every year whichever comes first.

The factory specified oil is inexpensive and only a Amazon click away. Try pricing a new replacement engine.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/ENI-i-Ride-PG-5W-40-litre/dp/B006NJKO6M

Again, I'm not disputing any of this. Only wondering why they specify a JASO wet clutch oil for a no clutch CVT transmission.

Small displacement, high compression, small oil quantity, high revs, etc, etc, etc.

I wonder the same thing sometimes.
I'm not giving you advice here, but I do have almost 50,000 miles on my MP3 500.
Been using Rotella T6 for the last ~35,000 miles or so. The last two oil changes were done two years apart. Each. Unfortunately due to highway construction/traffic/aggression that's only ~8000 miles in total.
And I neglected to change the spark plugs for ~33,000 miles.
Runs fine.

As long as the oil meets or exceeds the manufacturer's specs it is fine regardless of what it is marketed for. Have yet to hear someone with a convincing argument otherwise.

Some think this whole "motorcycle oil" is nothing but car engine oil with a different label. .

Different oil for different application.

Heavy duty diesel oil like Rotella is used mostly for large heavy duty slow turning engines that stay in a very low powerband. Usually between 900 and 1500rpm.

Do you put 87RON in your vehicle if the manual for said vehicle specifically states "USE PREMIUM UNLEADED FUEL ONLY" for the sake of a few pennies??? Fuel is fuel after all, according to some.

I've put my hands on enough engines that got carboned up because the owner felt that buying fuel "from Jimmy around the corner" was the smart move vs. a top tier gasoline.

Don't step over dollars to pick up pennies. You can pay a little now or pay a lot later, your choice.

https://www.oildepot.ca/tag/shell-rotella/

Read the pic below. It says "meets performance requirements", that does not mean it is JASO cerfified. Here is the actual JASO list. Yes, Shell is on that list but Shell Rotella is not.

http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV_LIST.pdf

And also be aware that our bikes are a world apart from say a Harley that uses a separate oil tank for the transmission and is essentially World War 2 engine technology.





Last edited by sbaert on Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:44 am; edited 3 times in total

Oil can be changed? Damn I'd best look into this, it could explain that knocking sound.

I ran a Royal Enfield for 17 years. When it was new I thought I would switch it over to the then brand new Mobil One synthetic oil. Following Mobil recommendation I carefully broke the motor in using the factory recommended 20w50 mineral base and then switched over to the synthetic. It ran fine, nice and quiet and notably cooler, a good trick with that old type hot as hell iron cylinder.

Too cool its turned out, I could ride it to work 27km away on a 75 degree day and the cases were still just barely warm when I rolled into my parking spot. After a week the engine was showing signs of condensation build up so I pulled the full synthetic and went over to a blend so I could get enough heat into the engine. We often forget that the engine's oil is its primary cooling medium, not the fins on the barrel or the rad hanging in front of it. I sold that bike with 76000 on the original bore, piston and rings and it still wasn't using any oil. I wouldn't doubt for a second that the quality of the lubricants had a lot to do with that.

As for specifying JASO, it is a Japanese standard, their equivalent to SAE. When you think of who developed the majority of what we accept as the modern motorcycle it seems logical that the oils for those engines would be developed there as well. Piaggio recognizes that the oils they need have already been defined by the Japanese so they are just using those definitions to call out the lubricants they need, why reinvent the wheel.

SAE is an American system and, lets face it, the US is not exactly the home of high revving engines, so they may be a bit behind in this area.

"Meets performance requirements" is plenty for me. I mean, I want the oil to perform; that is what I want the oil to *DO*. Shiny boxes and marketing hype irritate me.

when did this change? and do they have another tank for the engine oil as well?

Harleys use 3 different fluids each contained within the respective device, crankcase, primary/clutch, and transmission hence the name 3 hole oil change when doing a full oil service.

There is no fluid sharing between the 3, and each has its own required oil type.

but what about the oil tank for the transmission? never knew they had a tank reservoir for the transmission. ALL the hardlies I have ever seen have an engine oil tank, to include the one I use to own.

Not an expert, but isn't that why Harley now has a totally new engine generation out and is going big on electric big bikes? Because their traditional, die-hard engine tech can't be made to pass ever more stringent emission standards? Tough transition ahead given their fan base, I imagine.

I know my 2000-ish oil-head BMW R1100S isn't state of art exactly and has like 3 different kinds of oil (engine, transmission, rear stuff and "clutch fliuid") and probably wouldn't pass the Euro 4 standard even though I left the cat in.

Euro4 emissions standard for motorcycles only came into effect in 2017.

My 2015 MP3 is classified as a Euro2 bike, so a bike from the beginning of the millennium most likely has no Euro rating or Euro1 at the very most.

I seem to recall the Euro standards came in for motorcycles quite a bit later and were not as stringent as with cars. The R1100S was definitely Euro compliant (no reason for a cat otherwise) but don't remember the level, not that it matters at all anymore. Like I said, NO WAY a bike manufactured then would pass current standards, cat or no cat. Plus I live in California, and I can happily ride on with both my 2019 MP3 and R1100S as well as the car I barely ever use anymore (courtesy of the MP3's practicality).
In fact, if (and i's a big if because I am set in my ways) I move in with my girlfriend next year, I'll get rid of my car. She likes to spend more on her cars than I do ... and doesn't like to drive much. Her Audi RS5 coupe is far more fun than my car