Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:09 am

Addicted
Vespa S
Joined: 21 Dec 2010
Posts: 843
Location: Toronto, Canada
 
Addicted
Vespa S
Joined: 21 Dec 2010
Posts: 843
Location: Toronto, Canada
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:09 am linkquote
I'm anticipating some people selling off their scoots as interest rates rise. Trying to decide on whether or not to keep or upgrade the Vespa S / LX. My only real complaint on this bike is that two-up, the brakes stink. Other than that, I love it and ride it like a devil

I would consider a used Primavera or Sprint if I knew they offered any additional stopping power two-up. I know they come with front-wheel-only ABS, which seems... strange(?) to me.

Has anyone done some two-up riding on both the LX/S and the Primavera/Sprint and can let me know if there is any noticeable improvement in brake performance?

Alternatively I could just throw on some braided brake lines, or maybe even think about going GTS250.... but in a perfect world I'd keep it small and just add stopping power.


Thoughts? Suggestions? Random dog memes? All are welcome.
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:47 am

Hooked
Primavera 150
Joined: 14 Jul 2021
Posts: 127
Location: Monument, Colorado
 
Hooked
Primavera 150
Joined: 14 Jul 2021
Posts: 127
Location: Monument, Colorado
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:47 am linkquote
I have been riding my 2021 Primavera 150 2 up with my wife and I find that brakes adequate. She just received her Buddy 125 so I'll be riding solo.
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:49 am

Enthusiast
GTS300 Super
Joined: 07 Jun 2020
Posts: 65
Location: TN
 
Enthusiast
GTS300 Super
Joined: 07 Jun 2020
Posts: 65
Location: TN
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:49 am linkquote
Not sure on your make/model, but upgrading the brakes might be something to look into.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/brake-calliper-brembo-front_2051660J
Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:45 am

Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 41446
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
 
Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 41446
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:45 am linkquote
The thinking behind front-wheel only ABS on a two-wheeler is that if you've jumped on the brakes so hard that the front is about to skid a bit, then the back wheel will hardly be touching the ground at all, providing almost zero braking force - and in all probability would have already locked up. Hopefully this way you'll remain upright.

The front tyre wears mainly from braking, and the rear tyre wears mainly from acceleration.
Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:51 am

Member
20 GTS Super Tech 300
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 43
Location: Brookfield, CT
 
Member
20 GTS Super Tech 300
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 43
Location: Brookfield, CT
Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:51 am linkquote
I did a brembo on my last 250ie and I didn't think it made that big of a difference. When I have to do it again I'll just go with a better pad
Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:18 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
GT 2.4
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 7667
Location: NWAOK
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
GT 2.4
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 7667
Location: NWAOK
Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:18 pm linkquote
On a small disk, with a small single piston caliper, you can install better pads and rotors, but unless you are pushing it hard, you are going to see exactly as much improvement as you imagine there should be. Racing compound pads work very well, if you are racing. The Primavera and Sprint 150 use the same caliper as the GTS, and that should be an improvement on a small bike like that, but it's not going to be MotoGP better.
R&R the brake lines with something from this century might do more than most other suggestions, mainly because they are old and likely swell more than they did when new.
Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:29 am

Hooked
ET2 ZAPC 1600
Joined: 21 May 2022
Posts: 273
Location: UK
 
Hooked
ET2 ZAPC 1600
Joined: 21 May 2022
Posts: 273
Location: UK
Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:29 am linkquote
The issue with bikes is that adding a passenger makes for a substantial % increase in the total system weight, compared to adding a passenger to a car for example.

You'll always notice it a lot more on a bike. A 40% increase in weight will mean you have 40% more kinetic energy. That's a 40% longer stopping distance in an emergency, for example.

There's also the issue of weight transfer when braking - a lot more stress will be put on the front suspension and steering bearings with a passenger. Add more powerful brakes, and you might find that other bits can't cope as well as they did before, including your tyres.

Uprated/sintered/race pads are more aggressive, due to a higher metal content (and can come into their own, especially when warmed up), but they wear out your rotor/disc quicker. I fitted some Bremo sintered pads to a 600cc bike and they made quite a difference in biting power. Suppose it depends on who manufactures them, and how good their R&D is. Their intended use is important too - a 'race' pad might only offer a high co-efficient of friction at higher temperatures, therefore leaving them unsuitable for the road.

Braided hoses offer more feel, and a bit less squish in the system.

Last edited by OscarSass on Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:34 am; edited 2 times in total
Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:46 am

Addicted
Vespa S
Joined: 21 Dec 2010
Posts: 843
Location: Toronto, Canada
 
Addicted
Vespa S
Joined: 21 Dec 2010
Posts: 843
Location: Toronto, Canada
Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:46 am linkquote
Tell me about it. Just got back from a two-up 2,000 km trip!

Sounds like my best move will be asking one of my customers if I can just borrow their scoot for five minutes, we scoot over to them two up, and then compare the two side by side.
Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:48 am

Hooked
2020 Liberty 150, 2020 MP3-500
Joined: 06 Oct 2020
Posts: 452
Location: Reno
 
Hooked
2020 Liberty 150, 2020 MP3-500
Joined: 06 Oct 2020
Posts: 452
Location: Reno
Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:48 am linkquote
jimc wrote:
The thinking behind front-wheel only ABS on a two-wheeler is that if you've jumped on the brakes so hard that the front is about to skid a bit, then the back wheel will hardly be touching the ground at all, providing almost zero braking force - and in all probability would have already locked up. Hopefully this way you'll remain upright.

The front tyre wears mainly from braking, and the rear tyre wears mainly from acceleration.
It's not easy to put an antilock system on a drum brake
Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:39 pm

Addicted
Vespa S
Joined: 21 Dec 2010
Posts: 843
Location: Toronto, Canada
 
Addicted
Vespa S
Joined: 21 Dec 2010
Posts: 843
Location: Toronto, Canada
Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:39 pm linkquote
I think that's the real issue. Piaggio didn't want to spend the extra money on a rear disk, but needs to have "ABS" in many countries where ABS is mandatory... So this weird front tire only fuckery is what we end up with 🤪
Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:42 pm

Hooked
GTS 300 hpe
Joined: 28 Sep 2019
Posts: 400
Location: NYC
 
Hooked
GTS 300 hpe
Joined: 28 Sep 2019
Posts: 400
Location: NYC
Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:42 pm linkquote
jimc wrote:
The thinking behind front-wheel only ABS on a two-wheeler is that if you've jumped on the brakes so hard that the front is about to skid a bit, then the back wheel will hardly be touching the ground at all, providing almost zero braking force - and in all probability would have already locked up. Hopefully this way you'll remain upright.

The front tyre wears mainly from braking, and the rear tyre wears mainly from acceleration.
Rear wheel slips are also less consequential, that's why for example traction control is optional, meaning it can be switched off and ABS in most cases cannot be controlled by the rider.
Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:54 pm

Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 41446
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
 
Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 41446
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:54 pm linkquote
giallo wrote:
Rear wheel slips are also less consequential, that's why for example traction control is optional, meaning it can be switched off and ABS in most cases cannot be controlled by the rider.
And if a combined ABS came into action when the back started to slip and acted on the front as well, that would NOT be good. ASR is fine for this.
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