OP
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 02:30:58 +0000

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
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OP
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
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Wed, 22 Jun 2022 02:30:58 +0000 quote
I dug into the GL's motor to get at the fly side case half so I could weld up the hole where the JBWeld broke loose tonight and was not really prepared for the carnage that awaited me.

First, the fly side seal was literally in two pieces. Then, the inner race for the fly side bearing was protruding out of the case.

And once I got the cases split, the kickstart gear was chewed up and there was more heat damage on the fly side of the crank's big-end bearing.

And the fly side bearing itself wasn't looking so hot, either.

Now for the good news. Welding up the hole in the transfers went swimmingly. There are two small pores visible from the inside, but they don't seem to go through to the outside. The pressure test will obviously be the real measure of success, but I'm still a fair way from that yet.

So while it was a lot worse than I was expecting, it's nothing I couldn't or can't handle.

Never a dull moment in my workshop.


Two piece bearing? Big Fan. Two-piece seal? Not so much.


Protruding. Even the word sounds like a bad thing.


A dog must've gotten hold of it


cranky


Things you never want to see when you look at your motor


outside


After re-work.

Wed, 22 Jun 2022 02:36:01 +0000

Molto Verboso
Joined: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 21:32:14 +0000
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Molto Verboso
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Wed, 22 Jun 2022 02:36:01 +0000 quote
How????
OP
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 02:36:59 +0000

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
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Wed, 22 Jun 2022 02:36:59 +0000 quote
orwell84 wrote:
How????
26HP
OP
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 02:37:38 +0000

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
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Wed, 22 Jun 2022 02:37:38 +0000 quote
Also, something must have been just a little bit off true.
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 03:07:44 +0000

Molto Verboso
Joined: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 21:32:23 +0000
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Molto Verboso
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Wed, 22 Jun 2022 03:07:44 +0000 quote
Jeeeez!

But that weld repair... Looks good enough to eat
OP
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 03:15:15 +0000

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
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Wed, 22 Jun 2022 03:15:15 +0000 quote
Ray8 wrote:
Jeeeez!

But that weld repair... Looks good enough to eat
Thanks!

Having even a little bit of experience makes a huge difference. I also practiced and got my settings right before I did it.

I think I know what happened with the bearing. When I was welding the clutch side cases, I noticed when I pulled the cylinder off that there was a tiny bit of weld spatter, like smaller than a pinhead, which I hadn't gotten filed quite flat. I'm guessing that put the cylinder justa hair off true, causing the carnage.

Regardless, better to find out this way than having the whole thing explode on the road.
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 03:25:41 +0000

Veni, Vidi, Posti
Joined: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 16:23:21 +0000
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Location: Tega Cay, SC
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Wed, 22 Jun 2022 03:25:41 +0000 quote
chandlerman wrote:
Thanks!
Regardless, better to find out this way than having the whole thing explode on the road.
Agreed, could have been a whole lot worse with you sliding down the road sideways. Good man.
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 07:02:04 +0000

Molto Verboso
PX 200
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Molto Verboso
PX 200
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Wed, 22 Jun 2022 07:02:04 +0000 quote
Still crazy damage…

Not that it's huge damage, but moving bearing race? That's pretty extraordinary.

Usually you can't get that off even if you wanted to!

Repairs look swell though! Top stuff
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 12:32:25 +0000

Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
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Wed, 22 Jun 2022 12:32:25 +0000 quote
I'm sure you realize that a standard factory case is unlikely to be strong enough or manufactured to adequate tolerances to withstand the forces of that much power for very long. I'm sure it's a blast, but it's a short one. From that perspective, the resulting carnage is not a let down but rather part of the fun. It took me awhile to understand this about a certain segment of performance builds.
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 13:53:51 +0000

Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:25:08 +0000
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Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
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Wed, 22 Jun 2022 13:53:51 +0000 quote
Tierney wrote:
Agreed, could have been a whole lot worse with you sliding down the road sideways. Good man.
In those flesh colored riding pants that look like shorts
OP
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 14:02:14 +0000

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:59:35 +0000
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
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Wed, 22 Jun 2022 14:02:14 +0000 quote
orwell84 wrote:
I'm sure you realize that a standard factory case is unlikely to be strong enough or manufactured to adequate tolerances to withstand the forces of that much power for very long. I'm sure it's a blast, but it's a short one. From that perspective, the resulting carnage is not a let down but rather part of the fun. It took me awhile to understand this about a certain segment of performance builds.
Oh, I live this fact with this build every time I take it out. Nothing in these motors is designed for these sorts of stresses. This is the second set of cases I've had it in. The last ones cracked too bad to fix on a missed shift that also took out 4th gear and the xmas tree.

I'm now at the point where I have the confidence to start welding in reinforcements where feasible, but haven't done that to anything just yet.

Once I get parts in (I don't have a spare fly-side bearing), it'll go back together after I make sure that the high spot on the deck is fixed.
OP
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 14:02:49 +0000

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
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Wed, 22 Jun 2022 14:02:49 +0000 quote
qascooter wrote:
In those flesh colored riding pants that look like shorts
I call them my "Wheelie Pants"
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 15:33:30 +0000

Molto Verboso
Joined: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 21:32:14 +0000
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Molto Verboso
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Wed, 22 Jun 2022 15:33:30 +0000 quote
I figured it was a proof of concept kind of thing. I have eyed the Malossi cases from time to time and wondered about their capacity to hold up under the stress of a high performance build. I would love to have one just to have one but I can't justify the expense for the modest performance increases I am considering. The BFA cases look even beefier for your kind of build.
OP
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 15:36:48 +0000

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:59:35 +0000
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:59:35 +0000
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Location: Nashville
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 15:36:48 +0000 quote
It's not a Proof-of-Concept. It's a whip-ass-fast Daily Rider until it's not.

Hence the need for multiple scoots so I always have something to fall back to.

At some point I'll probably start buying purpose-built cases, but not yet.
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 16:02:14 +0000

Not So Moderator
VNB VSC o9c VMA vbc vmb VSX
Joined: Wed, 28 May 2008 17:31:07 +0000
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Not So Moderator
VNB VSC o9c VMA vbc vmb VSX
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Wed, 22 Jun 2022 16:02:14 +0000 quote
Quote:
So while it was a lot worse than I was expecting, it's nothing I couldn't or can't handle.

Never a dull moment in my workshop.
Good lord.

Every time I think I have seen it all you have a new adventure that proves me wrong.
I appreciate the education from the cheap seats.
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 21:16:31 +0000

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181 Quattrini and some motorbikes
Joined: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 05:16:54 +0000
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Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181 Quattrini and some motorbikes
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Wed, 22 Jun 2022 21:16:31 +0000 quote
That engine is going to have to think of some new ways to beat you. That was some attacking salvo. All repaired to try again.
Will you run that mazzucchelli till the big end goes or fit a new crank now?
OP
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 21:47:46 +0000

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
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Wed, 22 Jun 2022 21:47:46 +0000 quote
Jack221 wrote:
That engine is going to have to think of some new ways to beat you. That was some attacking salvo. All repaired to try again.
Will you run that mazzucchelli till the big end goes or fit a new crank now?
I'll run the crank until the big end fails. There's no signs of grinding and almost no lateral play. I'll get it back together next week after I get some parts ordered and see how long it all lasts this time.

I still need to figure out if the cruciform or gears are ready for replacement or not, too. It's a hardened Crimaz and peeking at it with the gears still on the driveshaft, it looks like it's still in pretty good shape, but who knows.
OP
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 22:02:59 +0000

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
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Wed, 22 Jun 2022 22:02:59 +0000 quote
Birdsnest wrote:
Good lord.

Every time I think I have seen it all you have a new adventure that proves me wrong.
I appreciate the education from the cheap seats.
Like it or not, I live my life as a cautionary tale to others.
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 23:26:04 +0000

Molto Verboso
Joined: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 21:32:14 +0000
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Molto Verboso
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Wed, 22 Jun 2022 23:26:04 +0000 quote
Did all that carnage end up seizing it?
OP
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 23:27:16 +0000

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:59:35 +0000
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Wed, 22 Jun 2022 23:27:16 +0000 quote
orwell84 wrote:
Did all that carnage end up seizing it?
Nope. Top end is still just fine. These little motors are tougher than people give them credit for.
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 23:48:47 +0000

Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
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Location: northern New York
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 23:48:47 +0000 quote
chandlerman wrote:
Nope. Top end is still just fine. These little motors are tougher than people give them credit for.
I know I've told my broken cruciform seizing gearbox story. I think my biggest fear has been seizing, but I have kind of gotten over it. Bottom end seizing is probably pretty rare. Top end seizing causing hard lock ups is probably pretty uncommon too. Yes, these engines are quite tough and I am too dainty working on them. I was going to ask at one point if anyone ever spin balanced them and thought better if it.
OP
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 23:55:14 +0000

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
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Wed, 22 Jun 2022 23:55:14 +0000 quote
I'm so far down the "stranded by breaking things that should never break" road it's not even funny.

Shattered cruciforms. Broken gear teeth. Shattered cases. Mangled clutch plates. Spun clutch. I even snapped a driveshaft somehow. Still haven't quite figured out how that happened.

Hard seizes are relatively uncommon, but they'll definitely get your attention when it happens. I hard-seized my Sprint doing about 60 when a cylinder stud worked its way loose. I was still able to fire it back up and ride it home. That was a cast iron Polini 177. You do that with an Aluminum top-end and that jug is never running again.
Thu, 23 Jun 2022 00:15:03 +0000

Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
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Thu, 23 Jun 2022 00:15:03 +0000 quote
After working on them long enough, I guess you become like one of those special forces guys who can find all the pieces of his rifle in the mud and reassemble it in the dark. The videos of the SIP guys building engines in their Euro kitchen make me chuckle…Und das ist der tool fuhr torquing die license plate to eksakly .2 Newton Meters. The dirt floor of a mud hut will work too. But I am more like the SIP guys than I would like to admit.
OP
Thu, 23 Jun 2022 00:29:44 +0000

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:59:35 +0000
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OP
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:59:35 +0000
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Location: Nashville
Thu, 23 Jun 2022 00:29:44 +0000 quote
orwell84 wrote:
After working on them long enough, I guess you become like one of those special forces guys who can find all the pieces of his rifle in the mud and reassemble it in the dark.
Fun fact: long ago and far away, I was able to take all the pieces of an M16 and M60 in a single pile and re-assemble them in complete darkness, and do it FAST.

These days, I prefer to do fast assembly of things like poorly-shot and -edited youtube videos of my workshop adventures, so here's the video from last nights welding session.

Thu, 23 Jun 2022 00:49:28 +0000

Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
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Location: northern New York
Thu, 23 Jun 2022 00:49:28 +0000 quote
Yeah…I'd end up shooting myself doing that even without a firing pin in the pile.

Looks like you've found the angle of dangle on the spool gun. There's nuthin wrong with that welding; no voids or inclusions…not a booger to be found. Many hectares of port space are now within your grasp.
OP
Thu, 23 Jun 2022 01:13:04 +0000

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:59:35 +0000
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OP
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:59:35 +0000
Posts: 7159
Location: Nashville
Thu, 23 Jun 2022 01:13:04 +0000 quote
orwell84 wrote:
Looks like you've found the angle of dangle on the spool gun. There's nuthin wrong with that welding; no voids or inclusions…not a booger to be found. Many hectares of port space are now within your grasp.


And this was much harder than just adding meat to unmolested cases. I had to deal with paper thin walls that pulled back, then build from there. I'd practiced on a hole in an old case half, so I knew what was going to happen, which makes a big difference, too. Welding really is amazing. I'm really glad I finally got going with it.
Thu, 23 Jun 2022 01:21:05 +0000

Molto Verboso
Joined: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 21:32:14 +0000
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Location: northern New York
 
Molto Verboso
Joined: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 21:32:14 +0000
Posts: 1507
Location: northern New York
Thu, 23 Jun 2022 01:21:05 +0000 quote
Not listening to people who tell you it can't be done helps too. It's not like a my little pony I can do anything wowee rainbow attitude. It more like… The fuck I can't, kind of mindset.
Thu, 23 Jun 2022 04:32:40 +0000

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 09:50:15 +0000
Posts: 3441
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Location: california
Thu, 23 Jun 2022 04:32:40 +0000 quote
you need a mill.
🙂
Quote:
In those flesh colored riding pants that look like shorts
"Skorts"

I'll grant you - that is a mighty unique implosion.
My $.02:
If you find you have a leak in a lower pressure area of the cases - due to a pinhole - consider using a quality epoxy and smearing it over the weld area on both sides - to seal everything up.
Welding with a gun rather than a torch is like doing surgery with a fork - well - perhaps a knife - but I am talking kitchen not scalpel.
Without a torch - you cant concentrate on an area and get it fully molten - a trick that can be used to get rid of any pinholes -without adding material.
Gun is either feeding more material - or not.
So consider pin hole fixing with quality epoxy.
Hit both sides so you know you'll get good life.
Torque bolts and don't forget the cotter pin.
-CM1
  DoubleGood Design  

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