Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:41 pm

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Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:41 pm linkquote
Hi everyone, I'm Melvin 35 years old and from the Netherlands. I have a problem with my piaggio mp3 hpe 300. I was just driving slowly and out of nowhere I hear a very loud tap. I drove back about 700 meters and turned off the engine. The mp3 starts well and has no power loss. I suspect it has something to do with the valves. Since there could also be another 300ml of oil. The engine consumes a lot of oil and I always topped up on time. I have now removed the cylinder head but I can't find any damage. I'm attaching a video so you can hear how it sounds. I hope someone can steer me in the right direction. Thanks in advance. mileage is 13000 km.
Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:09 am

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Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:09 am linkquote
High oil consumption usually means valve guide seals or broken piston rings.

However, be aware that all engines consume some oil to a degree but this depends for the most part on how the engine was broken in during the first 1000km.
Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:20 am

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Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:20 am linkquote
Melvin wrote:
The engine consumes a lot of oil
The HPE 300 in the Vespa GTS also consumes a lot of oil*. I believe it is exactly the same engine so I'd expect this and not be concerned.

No comment on other parts of your post.



* Many threads about this in the General section of this forum
Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:32 am

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Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:32 am linkquote
I think we need to define "oil consumption", and thus OP needs to let us know how much oil is being burned.

In the automotive world, the general rule is that any oil consumption higher than 1L/1000km is considered not acceptable.

With some car brands, i.e. VW/Audi, oil consumption is much higher than other brands even to the extent that they put "Check oil" labeling in the area of the fuel filler cap.
Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:43 am

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Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:43 am linkquote
Did you check the Camshaft and Tumblers on wear
CLearance should be 0.10 inlet and 0.15 outlet

(NokkenAs en Tuimerlaars heb hier ook een blokje liggen waar bij ze zijn ingesleten)
Otherwise come to olst then i can have a look
Mon Aug 01, 2022 4:07 am

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Mon Aug 01, 2022 4:07 am linkquote
Thank you all for your answer. I am aware that the HPe engines use a lot of oil (more than normal). And the oil has never been completely low (no oil light).The funny thing is that it happened spontaneously, but didn't hear anything break, just the tap out of nowhere. Hey Maksor I recognize you from the piaggio forum I took the whole head off and looked at everything but can't really find anything on the valves, rocker arm or camshaft. So I'm afraid it's deeper. Great offer I can come by, but the mp3 is now completely apart in Amsterdam









Mon Aug 01, 2022 4:26 am

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Mon Aug 01, 2022 4:26 am linkquote
I see some scuff marks on the roller rocker.

Exactly what oil are you using and how often do you change the oil&filter? I stick with Piaggio approved oils, such as Eni 5W-40PG or Liqui Moly.





Mon Aug 01, 2022 4:47 am

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Mon Aug 01, 2022 4:47 am linkquote
I use the synth 5w40 metra oil. The first 1000km with run-in oil. After the first turn, use this oil immediately and replace the oil filter. The major service was done at 10,000 km. And at 13xxxkm this crap. Haven't heard a weird noise yet. Valves didn't click either. That is also crazy for a motorcycle with not too many miles. Everything I find on the internet with this sound is always towards the valves, but I don't see any damage there, except on the roll which does have some scratches, but they can't be felt.
Mon Aug 01, 2022 4:51 am

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Mon Aug 01, 2022 4:51 am linkquote
Due to the very small oil quantities and the high rpms, you should change the oil+filter every 5K km.

Also be aware that Piaggio misprints the quantity in their manual (at least for the 500). They list 1.7L while actual is 1.5L. I keep my oil level about 1/3 between min and max on the stick.

Is the oil you are using a motorcycle oil and are you using 98RON fuel?

It sounds to me you may be dealing with piston ring issues. Has the engine ever been run near the rev limiter?

I recommend you stick a endoscope camera down the spark plug hole and check for any bore score or other signs of damage
Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:09 am

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Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:09 am linkquote
The oil bottle says scooters and motorcycles, but I've actually been using these for all my vehicles for years, so I assumed it's good. I fill up Euro95 unleaded, petrol is so expensive. But I always do this with all vehicles. Of course, that doesn't mean the vehicle can't break.

I've never come close to the red. I drive every day highway but because we are only allowed 100 I do not have full throttle. But if it's a piston ring, then the engine wouldn't start or run properly, would it? The moment I heard the tap I drove back to work and did not feel any loss of power and it started right away. But when I look into the spark plug hole with an endoscope, do I look at the valves? I can't see the piston from the side unless I take the cylinder off, but I wanted to avoid that because I always have a hard time getting the piston rings back.
Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:30 am

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Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:30 am linkquote
No need to remove the head (again). You stick the endoscope through the spark plug hole and look for evidence of bore score (vertical scrapes) in the piston bore.

If you see any, then you have a ring problem. And remember that the piston has 3 sets of rings, so the engine will still start and run even if 1 ring is cracked or broken.

BTW, you should always run RON98 without exception. Don't step over dollars to pick up pennies.

Also running the engine with the engine level too high can cause piston ring problems, hence why I never recommend to run these engine with the oil level at max.

Here is an example of an engine with bore score damage (cracked piston ring)



Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:30 am

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Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:30 am linkquote
sbaert wrote:
No need to remove the head (again). You stick the endoscope through the spark plug hole and look for evidence of bore score (vertical scrapes) in the piston bore.

If you see any, then you have a ring problem. And remember that the piston has 3 sets of rings, so the engine will still start and run even if 1 ring is cracked or broken.

BTW, you should always run RON98 without exception. Don't step over dollars to pick up pennies.

Also running the engine with the engine level too high can cause piston ring problems, hence why I never recommend to run these engine with the oil level at max.

Here is an example of an engine with bore score damage (cracked piston ring)
damn I have been going by the workshop manual

Unleaded gasoline E10 (95 R.O.N.)
Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:36 am

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Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:36 am linkquote
Melvin wrote:
Hi everyone, I'm Melvin 35 years old and from the Netherlands. I have a problem with my piaggio mp3 hpe 300. I was just driving slowly and out of nowhere I hear a very loud tap. I drove back about 700 meters and turned off the engine. The mp3 starts well and has no power loss. I suspect it has something to do with the valves. Since there could also be another 300ml of oil. The engine consumes a lot of oil and I always topped up on time. I have now removed the cylinder head but I can't find any damage. I'm attaching a video so you can hear how it sounds. I hope someone can steer me in the right direction. Thanks in advance. mileage is 13000 km.
maybe some help in this thread

HELP Please!! mp3 300 2011 engine knocking hard
Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:27 am

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Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:27 am linkquote
Melvin wrote:
...I am aware that the HPe engines use a lot of oil (more than normal). And the oil has never been completely low (no oil light)....
This is technically incorrect. The light is a oil pressure warning light, it is NOT a oil level warning light. In most cars, when the oil pressure light comes on it is usually already too late and damage has been done. The sole correct way to measure the oil level is by using the dipstick.

AFAIK, Piaggio has never and still does not use a use a oil level sensor in their engines. Why Piaggio can't spend the $2.99 on a glass sight to monitor the oil level (like every other major motorcycle manufacturer) is beyond me.

In other words, you can have a fraction of the stated quantity in the engine and the light will stay dark as long as the oil pump is not sucking in air.

Last edited by sbaert on Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:18 am; edited 1 time in total
Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:18 am

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Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:18 am linkquote
You are right about that oil light. But if the oil level is really low and you make a turn or brake, you see the light on. cylinder head is still off so I prefer not to move the piston. I want to reassemble the cylinder head when I'm sure there's nothing wrong with the valve system. I'll add some pictures, more eyes is always better.


Intake


Exhaust









Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:21 am

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Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:21 am linkquote
Melvin wrote:
...But if the oil level is really low and you make a turn or brake, you see the light on....
If that light has been illuminating (even the slightest flicker) whenever you make a turn, then you have been running very low on oil for quite a while and there is now engine damage. Just sayin'

Might explain the scuff marks on the roller rocker.
Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:28 am

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Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:28 am linkquote
This has never happened with this one. I had a piaggio yourban before and the oil filter leaked on the seam. I found out too late because I suddenly saw the oil light burn. That engine has reached 26,000 km and then I had an accident. But those little scratches on that roller won't cause the tick, will they? This tapping sound really resembles a diesel car that has bad valves.
Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:47 am

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Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:47 am linkquote
maybe totally unconnected but what are these marks on the cylinder head circled in red, just my eyes maybe


Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:55 am

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Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:55 am linkquote
Melvin wrote:
...This tapping sound really resembles a diesel car that has bad valves.
If I were a betting man, then you are likely dealing with crank bearing damage. The scuff marks on the roller rocker are (in my book) telltale signs of lack of lubrication.

These engines hold very little oil, and are pretty much unforgiving to low oil conditions.

Even Piaggio recommends you check and correct oil level at every fuel fillup.
Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:00 am

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Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:00 am linkquote
That's nice that others are watching But I think those are impact points or something. I just looked and couldn't see anything remarkable there. I'm going to try to continue this week and I hope I can find it.
Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:24 am

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Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:24 am linkquote
What is that long scratch between the 2 intake valves? Looks like something impacted there.
Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:49 am

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Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:49 am linkquote
Those are the exaust valve.That was my fault, I accidentally scratched with something hard.

I just can't get the valve springs off without good tools, those things are tight. I want to clean it all.
Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:11 am

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Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:11 am linkquote
I wouldn't spend too much time on cleaning at this point, since I'm afraid you're likely going to be doing a complete engine tear down.
Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:55 pm

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Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:55 pm linkquote
I hope not, but I think it is also deeper. I had already drained the oil and did not find any iron particles. I took the oil filter off and then I saw some small iron pieces, so the horror has started. Now just find out where it comes from.
Tue Aug 02, 2022 2:13 am

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Tue Aug 02, 2022 2:13 am linkquote
Melvin wrote:
I hope not, but I think it is also deeper. I had already drained the oil and did not find any iron particles. I took the oil filter off and then I saw some small iron pieces, so the horror has started. Now just find out where it comes from.
sounds pretty similar to yours

Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:48 am

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Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:48 am linkquote
Thanks for pointing it out. I have also seen a few videos where it is very similar to my sound. The problem with most is in the valves area. This person also shows that the camshaft and valve lifters are not good. I had hoped that I would also find something like this, but it still looks good enough unfortunately.
Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:42 am

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Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:42 am linkquote
Melvin wrote:
Thanks for pointing it out. I have also seen a few videos where it is very similar to my sound. The problem with most is in the valves area. This person also shows that the camshaft and valve lifters are not good. I had hoped that I would also find something like this, but it still looks good enough unfortunately.
ok and just by an off chance is everything around the flywheel tight nothing loosened up that gives a knocking sound but can sound like camshaft also
Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:35 am

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Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:35 am linkquote
That is certainly a possibility, too stupid that I have not looked there yet. I will probably also find pieces of the damage there. I only have little time because of work and the mp3 is also at work, so it is not convenient I'll definitely look into that, but I'm afraid it's a little deeper. I've solved quite a lot of scooter and motorcycle problems, but I've never had such a strange problem. It's easy to find a problem if the engine isn't would start. This problem can be the crankshaft or bearing, oil pump, piston or cylinder, ignition. These are the things that move with the motor. I have already completely removed the transmission and started it, but the noise was still there. Thanks again so much that people think along Love
Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:14 am

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Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:14 am linkquote
Since you already verified the presence of metal in the oil, then the damage is strictly internal.

I'm gonna venture to guess you are going to need at least a new crank assembly and a oil pump.

And I would also strongly advise to stick to Piaggio approved oils vs. offbeat/unknown brands like Metra. I don't want to start a oil war thread, but not all oils are the same. Fluids and filters are the worst places to try to save a couple of pennies on.
Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:16 am

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Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:16 am linkquote
thinking also Big-end is gone
Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:37 am

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Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:37 am linkquote
I once heard a fouco run with a broken crankshaft, and that sound was more of a stamping and banging.

If it's the crankshaft then I think I'll cry a little first. I hope a piston ring has broken. I'm going to get the cylinder off soon and I hope to find out.
Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:51 am

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Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:51 am linkquote
There is a bright spot in this story

Since you are in Holland, you are close to the source with the best prices on Piaggio parts.

easyparts.nl

However, do be aware that it is August and the factory in Pontedera is closed for "summer holiday" in case parts are not in stock at easypars.nl LMFAO, obviously the moniker "world economy" is still a unknown term in Italy.
Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:09 am

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Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:09 am linkquote
Good news! I just took a quick look on easyparts.nl, and they have a new crank in stock for a 2019-2020 Euro4 MP3 300 hpe. However, there are 2 types based on what crank you currently have in your engine.

https://easyparts.nl/explodedview/Genuine-parts-Piaggio-MP3-300-HPE-Sport-E4-ABS-2019-2020-(EMEA)-Crankshaft-m31273-d226733
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Wed Aug 03, 2022 2:06 am linkquote
Here is a very informative video about the importance of doing regular oil changes and using quality oil. Notice the symptoms a.k.a. burning oil and what can be done to prevent it.

FWIW, my MP3 500 burns zero oil, but I am a mechanic and am borderline OCD when it comes to proper maintenance. My motto is "when in doubt, throw it out"

Wed Aug 03, 2022 3:30 am

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Wed Aug 03, 2022 3:30 am linkquote
I know it's important to put good oil in it. And I never save on oil, but I'm not an oil expert either so I took what was recommended to me. But I'm sure that this problem is due to oil, but the question is whether it was the oil itself or whether the supply was not good. This engine is known for oil consumption and Piaggio also knows about it, but they will not do anything about it. I have been in contact with an employee of Piaggio and he indicated that it can't hurt as long as you refill, was only told that it is annoying that the engine ticks. But if I know that it is the crankshaft or bearings then I give up, then it goes on sale.
Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:10 am

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Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:10 am linkquote
It's not just about using the right oil, it's about how often the oil gets changed.

The maintenance schedules of modern vehicles are bunk. Remember, they are written by people who are in the business of selling vehicles. Piaggio won't even touch their own products once it hits 10 years, doesn't matter if it has 100 or 100K on the clock, so that shows how much confidence they have in their own products

And that is also why modern day cars such as BMW are such piles of crap. Full of plastic engine parts with 25K oil service intervals. A recipe for disaster. I call them "lease machines". Lease them and get rid of them as soon as the factory warranty is about to expire.

In the case of Piaggio, just store the owner's manual in the bathroom for the day you run out of toilet paper. That is about the only use it serves.

If you change the engine oil+filter every 5K km along with a steering bearing lube, the rear diff oil every 10K along with the belt service, and replace the coolant + brake fluid at a minimum every 2 years (preferably in the spring, I do mine yearly) then you should be OK. Mine has about 63K on the clock, and has never been in the hands of a dealer except for the initial 1K break-in just because I don't trust them and they have arrogant customer service a.k.a. "It's not us, it's you" attitude. Besides, I have near 1/2 century of wrenching experience under my belt.

And since today's society lives in a bubble of deniability is another reason for sticking to what the factory prescribed. In other words, if there is a issue about who to blame then I just tell them "your vehicle, your (prescribed) oil, your filter, your problem". Case closed.

BTW, here is where I bought the last batch of oil for my MP3

https://olietekoop.nl/product/1-liter-eni-iride-pg-5w40/
Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:29 am

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Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:29 am linkquote
I have been doing my own maintenance for at least 15 years, because I also know how it works in the shops. In most cases I don't trust others to touch my motorcycle.

But the following now, I have most likely found the problem, the piston pin was broken in half! While removing the cylinder I saw the piston move up and down while the crankshaft stood still. When I had the cylinder off I saw between the gap of the piston that the pin was broken. Now I do have a piece out but the other part is stuck, so I have to find a solution to get it out without bending the crankshaft. The piston and cylinder looked good apart from some thin scratches. Fortunately, the crankshaft bearings also have no play. I really don't understand how this is possible, but maybe the oil together with metal fatigue. That certainly explains the tick in the engine. I'm happy again when everything is together and running well again.







Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:02 am

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Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:02 am linkquote
Metal fatigue on a relatively new vehicle? Don't think so.

Think more along the lines of lack of lubrication.

I see marks on the piston skirt as well,

You're now looking at a new piston, jugg (cylinder sleeve), wrist pin, 2 new rocker arms, new oil pump, new gaskets, etc, etc, etc.
Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:44 am

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Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:44 am linkquote
The scratches you see are not felt, not on the piston and not in the cylinder. But as soon as I have the piston loose I will measure it in the cylinder, if I see that it is not good I buy a new one. Foot gasket went already broken, but I renew them all anyway. The most important thing is to replace the broken parts, because my father always says, you can't fix what is not broken. I take the gamble that I will not replace the oil pump, but will use different oil .And if the oil pump didn't work then I wouldn't see any oil in the cylinder head or cylinder either. I hope I was just stupid lucky
Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:57 am

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Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:57 am linkquote
Between you and me, I think the reason the wrist pin snapped is because the piston started seizing in the jugg due to lack of lubrication.

The oil pump is only 100 Euro. If I was working on the bike, I wouldn't even start the rebuild without a new oil pump.

And you should replace the rocker arms also. Why? Because the hardened coating has been compromised and thus weakened which will cause metal shavings to enter the oil.

Ditto on replacing the piston rings.

https://easyparts.nl/Oil-Pump-PIAGGIO-Leader-125-200-Quasar-250-300-4T-E1-E5-p33565364
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