Modern Vespa

I rigged up a new kill switch a few months back and ground it to the frame, thinking I needed it for inspection. I will test it with it removed.

Another thing I read somewhere that in a DC only system the battery could be used to absorb current spikes and didn't really need to remain charged. I actually don't use it for anything.

The Stator puts out the correct 13-14 volts when there is no load (lights, etc). I'm going to give it a try with a DC headlight. I'm also not sure if I am getting outputs from all the coils.

Question: I think everything ends up sharing 1 ground and only the battery gets grounded to the frame. The black stator ground wire is also gets wired into the same ground wires. The spark circuit is grounded normally. Is this correct?

In reading up, it seems that a Stator should be able to put out 13+V through the regulator even under load, so either something is sucking up tons of juice or I have not correctly joined the coils and am not getting all the full wave goodness out of my stator.

I am close to declaring victory on the ignition problem though.

I went for a long ride with no ignition issues at all. Temps did go up to 306*F, which suggests it needs more main. The road I was on was mostly all uphill into the mountains with lots of twisties. I am rarely in 4th gear or close to full throttle. As I was coming home, the idle would not come down consistently. I thought I had picked up an air leak, but I was out of gas. Seems like a Vespa will go miles running lean on fumes. Runs great like that though. The Runleader CHT/rev counter is the best $25 I ever spent.

Now that the ignition system is working, I can finally make a decent attempt at jetting. All bets are off without a good spark.

As for the charging system, I won't waste anyone's time with "where does this wire go"? questions. The only solution is quality time with the multimeter and wiring diagram. I have done a lot of rewiring and electrical trouble shooting on my bus, but this scooter AC/DC cluster does my head in.

Thanks for reading along, gents.

I think I may have sorted out the charging system. We shall see. Everyone probably already knows that the headlight is on its own circuit, but I hadn't grasped that yet.

I hooked up the regulator so that the lighting wire powered the headlight and the charging wire runs to the battery and indicators, tail light, etc. The big thing I noticed was that the brake and instrument lights no longer dimmed when the headlight was on. I think I also had hooked up a relay incorrectly so that the battery was actually powering the switch all the time.

I thought the headlight was stock, but appears to be a halogen light which uses a lot of juice. I may try the super bright led that came with the bike. I'm thinking that it will consume less power than the halogen.

Getting there…

No. It should still have 13.7V with load on the system.

As it stands, the lights are dragging it waaaay down, which means some sort of crazy load or maybe a ground short. I'd expect you'd see some smoking insulation or a blown fuse if that were the case, though.

I'm pretty sure the headlight has been dragging it down. When I ran the headlight wire directly to the red/yellow lighting wire directly to the headlight wire, it seemed to stop dragging down everything else.

The other thing that confuses me in the TT instructions is that it says that everything has to be grounded to the negative terminal on the battery. That isn't how DC anything automotive works. My signal lights are still grounded to the frame, for starters.

corrosion of the wiring inside the harness is increasing resistance. It's a fire hazard and also will continue to accelerate resistance until the wire eventually just crumbles.

And, agreed, the battery, as well as everything else, should ground to the frame.

Yup. Crazy stock wiring…Usually a wiring run will be a consistent color from the power source to its destination. Not on a Stella. It might change color a few times…often using the same color of an unrelated circuit.

Just about to declare victory on the charging system. The issue seemed to be my confusion with some of the repurposed wiring and the general workings of AC with DC circuits.

I went for a long ride today and the signal lights continued to work instead of slowly dying. I'm less concerned about the battery holding a charge. If everything works while running, I'm good.

The wiring is rather messy as I wanted to ride rather than pull the gas tank and go through it. Over the winter, I will tidy it up.

The way the engine is set up at this point, it feels a bit like the stock 200. But I haven't been on any roads where full throttle in 4th is possible.

I'm happy with where I ended up. Lots of false starts and going off on tangents or in circles. Thanks to the extended riding season, I was able to get in a lot of the riding time I missed.

As always, many thanks for all the help, good advice and encouragement.

More riding enjoyment. I now have a dedicated warm up lap and a designated parking lot to swap jets and twiddle carb screws.

Misfiring issues have not returned. Electrics no longer go dead. Strong at the end of the ride and the next day and the next. Starts first kick every time.

Last set of jets was idle: 40/120, AC 160, BE2, 122

The 122 went better than expected…maybe a bit rich. 125 definitely spluttered…122 a little bit in mid range with the BE2, but not the BE3. The 4 stroking at 1/4 throttle was much improved when running no air filter or when running the air screw really turned in…like 1 turn out from shut.

It seems the only way to get rid of the 1/4 throttle 4 stroking is to lean the idle jet way out, which I'm reluctant to do. I can live with it. The power comes on strong suddenly once past 1/4 throttle. Makes me think of a 4 stroke car with a hot cam. Good thing it isn't a bus.

Maybe the little reed on the Stella was made to work better at low revs with a restrictive exhaust. Throw a Road 2 on it and no more back pressure. I think I have hit the limit of what can be fine tuned with carburation on this combination.

Overall, I'm happy with it. Not perfect, but getting closer.

Now you have a warm up lap and fiddling stop, let's put it to good use. So you can make the most of the remaining weather.

The AC160/BE2 is known as the "grenade combo". Each has its uses but never together.

The main stack should be AC140/BE5/ and main jet to suit working down from full WOT splutter. Ending about 115 probably.

Once this is done the pilot jet can be set easily.

Thanks! Yes, it felt all wrong.

I will start with the AC 140/BE5 combo and go from there.

One thing I noticed that may be throwing things off.

The seat for the mixture screw looks like it has some damage. I don't know if this makes a big difference but then again, the holes that determine jet sizes are very small.

Just a thought…

Went for a nice ride on Friday. Tried 140/BE5/115. Had spluttering in upper range so threw in a 112 main which mostly cleared it up, but may be too lean. I definitely need more jets. I haven't been doing plug chops as I am hoping to get in the neighborhood of the correct range before I go through all my new plugs. I was also running an undrilled air filter as I misplaced the drilled filter when last swapping carbs. I will need more jets. The weather has since turned to shit and will pretty much stay that way until April.

eastwood fast etch and owatrol oil will protect that

Yes, it's not real rust. This may end up more of a restoration, though. The paint is the same color, but not original, so repainting it would not end up as patina destruction. The respray is chipping/peeling in places where prep was not as good. A 77 P200e is not a typical candidate for this, but I have wanted one since the late 80's. Will see how it goes. I got all winter and one rideable scoot so no pressure either way.

yeah you have choices - the underside need not match. you can go with the simple I proposed or paint it or treat / prime / paint / truck bed liner or whatever catches your fancy. but if you're going to paint the rest of the bike then i think it's pretty clear what will happen on the bottom

I will probably use the same Master Series stuff I used on the underside of my bus. It's nearly bulletproof and meant to be applied with a brush.

I brought the VBB down over the weekend. I was surprised to find that the P series is almost exactly the same size. The VBB actually slightly wider at he legshield and the tail slightly longer. The P series bikes always seemed larger, even taking into account the 8 vs 10" wheels.

Stripping the 200. At first, I was only going to do touch ups, but got to the point where a respray made more sense. The previous respray was laid down thick…too thick for just scuffing and painting over it. I'm using a grinder with a fibrous plastic stripping disc. It removes paint without damaging metal.

I use a number of techniques to mechanically strip paint. I reserve sandblasting for rust. There is not much rust left and only a small dent on the legshield to work out. No bondo on it.

Also stripping the VBB as I work on the metal finishing. I'm hoping to complete all the prep, then bring them to a shop near where I work for the topcoat.

Jets are on the way for the Stella. If we get the odd warm day, I will try them out.

It was 48* yesterday and jets had just arrived from Scooter Mercato.

A couple weeks back, I tried 140AC/be5/115MJ. It spluttered a past half throttle so I tried a 112MJ and the splutter went away, but it doesn't pull well in 4th.

I realized I have been swapping 2 air filters as if they were interchangeable, but one is drilled above the jets.

Yesterday, I tried 140/be5/116 with the drilled filter. Much better. 4 stroking stayed put below 1/4 throttle and no splitter so I can go richer.

Just to clarify some things. Spluttering/4 stroking at high throttle to WOT=Rich.

I am trying to figure out whether I am getting bogging or sagging now. The scooter accelerates nicely in 3rd, but in 4th it accelerates very slowly. Giving it more throttle doesn't help. I'm thinking that I should go with a bigger main jet, but not sure.

When not sure what to do when jetting in, go richer. And by a lot. From where you are put in a 125 main jet. Make sure it just will not rev and when you try to ride it's so bad the only thing to do is put in a smaller jet.

Thanks! Will do. I now have a complete range of jets from 100 to 128 so I can step down in order instead of playing jet roulette.

Paint stripping has to be one of my least favorite jobs. It seems to take a long time but I only have a few hours in. Now that I'm in a groove, it's going faster.

Wondering what type of paint people have used when restoring Vespas and how it has held up. My first choice is 2k urethane but 2k acrylic enamel is less toxic. I'm still on the fence about top coating it myself.

Also wondering igniting is possible to replace the stamp sticker at the top of the tunnel tube.

Thanks

Urethane.

Yeah…single stage urethane would be best.

Making decent progress. In some places, the respray on this is really thick…other places quite thin and peels off with masking tape.

The VBB should be easier as it just has a layer of awful rattle can over everything…including the cowl rubbers. A lot of the original paint is in good condition, but sadly not enough to preserve. One of the side cowls and the mudguard are also from different colored bikes.

More stripping and blasting. This bike shouldn't need any filler work.

Watching paint come off is slightly more exciting than watching paint dry, but I'm pleased with the progress. It would be great if I could have both bikes ready for paint by the end of January. That would give me enough time to assemble both of them in time for the start of riding season. Around here, that's like mid May.

I have the 200 engine on the bench which will be mostly a straightforward stock rebuild. I will probably use a GS piston in the stock barrel and assemble with an eye on optimizing timings and squish.

The Malossi reed case on the shelf has been calling me and I have thinking about what I am going to build with it. My goal is to build a reliable touring engine. I believe the Malossi 210 sport kit should be a straight fit with the ports on the case. I will be using the EFL gearbox from my spare Stella engine. Not sure what to go with in terms of crank, exhaust and carb, but I'm trying to keep it as simple and user friendly as possible.

Eventually this engine will go on the Stella, which I think is the best candidate for a touring build. It will need better shocks.

Anyway, that's the grand plan.

Not much point in posting photos because progress is so incremental. Just about got the VBB legshield just right. I used a contour tool to make cardboard templates to check that the shape was right. I always try to push myself to improve my metal finishing skills. Every attempt gets better, but eventually I get to the point of diminishing returns and bust out the filler.

Trying to get both bikes ready for primer and get the primer on both the same day. Priming 2 bikes shouldn't take that much longer than doing 1. A lot of the time is spent setting up, mixing and cleaning up. A lot of time and materials get wasted doing things bit by bit. Having a day without interruptions where you can stick to recoat times, etc is hard to find.

I had COVID for the first time which knocked me on my ass all last week, so nothing got done. This week has been catching up at work and getting ready for the holidays.

Still not in bad shape on the 200. I should have time to get it in primer over the holidays. It's nice and straight except for a few dings which were easy to work out. Most of the grunt work was getting the tunnel rust free last winter.

Getting the VBB in primer at the same time is a little too ambitious. It will need more hammer and dolly work and perhaps some frame straightening.

Hopefully, I can find a decent painter for the 200. They tend to be less busy in the winter months. Winter garage painting gets dicey in weather this cold.

The idea of loading a pristine and freshly painted P200e chassis into my car after wanting one for 30 years really appeals to me. It's kind of gone full resto at this point. Maybe more than it needed, but I'm glad I'm going whole hog.

Odd about painters, around here in Minnesota, they are busy cleaning up deer accidents, ice accidents and what do you mean I can't drive my 4x4 at 60mph in the snow?

Maybe my vision of body shops twiddling their thumbs all winter is wishful thinking. I will look around when I get further along. We have a lot of those drivers here too.

Working on the 200 engine now. This engine ran quite well until I seized it…at low speed, low temp. Almost positive it was from a loose oil line after having the tank out. The line was full of air. I leak tested the engine before riding it.

The rotary pad is in rough shape. Before it came into my hands, it had a metal clutch seal fail. I don't know if it was repaired with JB weld, but I'm not seeing any signs of it.

The purist in me would love to see it TIG welded and machined. The pragmatist thinks; burn it, clean it with acetone and soda blast it, followed by a smear of JB weld just to fill the grooves.

The crank is a used crank installed after the oil seal wrecked the original. The bearings feel good…no fire aft movement.

It had a lot of gear oil in it. Looks like it leaked through the parting line gasket and not the seal. I will be doing bearings and seals at the very least.

Not quite sure about the rotary pad. I really don't want to go reed. I wanted to keep the simple, reliable, stock tractor goodness with an eye toward dialing in timings and squish.

Thanks for reading along.

That pad is 100% repairable with epoxy.

+1

I don't have a good read on the crank. Is the surface smooth to the touch? If not, it may need replacement.

And regardless of whatever else is going on, you had an oil sucker at the crankcase gasket, as you diagnosed.

Yeah…that crank. Lots of ridges that I can catch with a fingernail without even trying that hard.

So I'd like to know what you all are seeing that tells you he had an oil sucker leak? Draw me some arrows or something. Just want to learn.

Absolutely!

I circled where there's blow-by on the case and the gasket is damaged all the way through in the same area.

I had the same problem (for different reasons) at one point with my smallie. You can see how the gasket is damaged all the way through.

That's why I posted that photo. Soaked through gasket and oil clot are the smoking gun.

FMP has some good videos describing the issue as well as careful use of sealant and gasket placement to prevent it.

Better gaskets (Piaggio green ones or SIP Premium) and Permatex MotoSeal is my way...

https://www.scooter-center.com/en/engine-gasket-set-piaggio-vespa-px200-efl-cosa200-9110030

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/gasket-set-engine-sip-premium_92976000

Crank is toast. Even if it will be totally stock buy a 60mm stroke crank.

I agree. Makes me glad I pulled it apart.

Yes, 60mm crank for sure, just to have the wiggle room for setting up timings and squish.

Wondering if I should get the cut version.