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Hey all,

I stole this link from another scooter forum, and I figured I would pose the question to GTS owners:

has anyone done and/or believe in doing a hard break-in on a Vespa GTS? What were the results?

Here's the link: http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

I'm very curious to hear opinions regarding this on modern Vespas!
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I rode my GTS like I stole it from day one. Loads of different roads and speeds, but I never hesitated riding it flat out whenever possible. it's got about 1500 miles on now and has loosened up a bit, it runs great!

I used to work in a piston ring factory and what this guy is saying is right, there is no need to "run in" modern piston rings in a 4 stroke engine.
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Babyarms wrote:
I used to work in a piston ring factory and what this guy is saying is right, there is no need to "run in" modern piston rings in a 4 stroke engine.
Apart from tyres and brake pads that take about a hundred miles to come up to scratch there must be other components that need to break in a bit?
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Apart from breaking in new tires and pads, there is a fair amount of debate around engine break in - hard vs. soft. Personally I don't think it matters much, well other than slamming the bike first thing out the door.

If you do choose the hard route, just change the engine oil sooner than the 600m service.

$0.00002

/osc
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Sean65 wrote:
Babyarms wrote:
I used to work in a piston ring factory and what this guy is saying is right, there is no need to "run in" modern piston rings in a 4 stroke engine.
Apart from tyres and brake pads that take about a hundred miles to come up to scratch there must be other components that need to break in a bit?
Fair enough, tyres take about 100 miles to scrub, but that's only really a concern when cornering and I wouldn't slam the brakes on too much. As far as the engine though, modern rings don't need running in, modern bearing don't need running in and all the other mechanical compnents will will just wear and bed in as you go. The engine is an understessed 4 stroke witha rev limiter fitted. The article from Lexelot is very interesting, I had heard before that engines that are ran in hard produce more horsepower but have a shorter lifespan?
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Babyarms wrote:
I rode my GTS like I stole it from day one. Loads of different roads and speeds, but I never hesitated riding it flat out whenever possible. it's got about 1500 miles on now and has loosened up a bit, it runs great!

I used to work in a piston ring factory and what this guy is saying is right, there is no need to "run in" modern piston rings in a 4 stroke engine.
eek mine has been halfway round the world comapred to yours!! mine is 7 months old ad has done shade over 8000 miles.

i ran mine in softly until 1000 miles. then its been ran at 70 80 mph. its been fine. for 8000 miles except for the silly exhaust.
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I've been riding my GTS like I stole it from the dealership from day one. I believe that modern 4 stroke engines don't need the gentle break-in period my father tells me about with his Ford Capri back in 1975. I would only be cautious of prolonged freeway speeds / high rpm on a new engine. Working your motor through the revs is the right way to do it in my opinion. City driving ie, seeing how fast you can go between stop signs, perfect!

My 2 cents

-Kav

BTW. Hey Babyarms, I'm originally from the North East to, Gateshead to be exact. (does that make me a Macum?) :?
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I rode mine really easy for thr first 1000 miles.
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On good advise I ran my bike hard & fast early. It would not really go fast until 1000 miles but she runs like snot today.

10000 miles on the motor in 11 months and it runs as well as any, better than most.

The lawyers have more to do with the 600 mile/1000k breakin period than the mech guys.....

IMHO....

wanna race?

R

8)
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Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
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I've had my GTS for about 2 weeks and have put on about 200 miles. I ride it the same as I intend riding it in the future, which is fairly hard. I did change the engine oil at 100 miles, though and I intend doing it again at 500 miles, then at 1000 miles. I'm not expecting any problems. People sometimes get paranoid over this "break-in" hocus-pocus!

Cheers,

Bob
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Hard Break in
Long time lurker first time poster.

I have owned two many new demo scooters to count. Every one was broken in the same way. I took it out and road it faster and harder than any normal rider ever would. First I seat in the front brake pads. I try to break every one to find a flaw. Then after 30 miles in to the shop it goes. First service. I change the oil and filter. Go thru it top to bottom. The first service is more to check and make sure the PDI was done correctly. On new Vespa scooters I have found many loose nuts etc at 600 miles. I can promise that any demo's I have sold are faster maybe by 10% than the average scooter of same make that I test drive at 600 miles. I asked the head guy at Bajaj if he felt hard and fast was the way to break in a modern 4 stroke, off the record he said I was right on the money.

Its hard for me to tell a new to rider to go hard. If your new scooter is the first two wheeled thing you have owned go easy 600 miles. Or have a friend ride it home.

Ride safe.

Barry
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I wish I had rode my GTS harder when it was new.

I took Barry's advice and rode my wife's Buddy as hard as I could, up and down steep hills in San Francisco, and then changed the oil. It's got half the CCs of my GTS, and sometimes I swear she's going to leave me behind.

I'm a believer.
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kav wrote:
BTW. Hey Babyarms, I'm originally from the North East to, Gateshead to be exact. (does that make me a Macum?) :?
Well I'm from Sunderland so I'm a Mackem, most people from Gateshead would consider themsleves Geordies, but hey, I'm not going to stick labels on anyone
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I rode my GTS pretty gently for the first 200 miles or so. Then my car completely died on me (it was on its way out) and my GTS has become my daily driver. I've been riding it hard ever since then, and I've recently hit 1,100 miles.
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Most of us have used a hacksaw to cut metal, or an electric drill to bore a hole in metal. In the process, we've discovered that if we saw or drill too fast or furious, the cutting action ceases as we overheat the cutting tool and the metal work piece. We may have also observed that once we've glazed (overheated) the work piece, we've hampered the cutting process.

The same protocol applies with engine break-in. If we push a fresh engine hard, cylinder walls glaze-over and rings do not properly bed. If we push too hard, piston rings will micro-weld in their groves. Critical bearing surfaces will also glaze-over.
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Here's a posting by Team Nerdspeed from off of Rovers SC website:

"... have you seen Highlander or any other swordfighting/medieval battle movie? They always have a sequence of a blacksmith or montage of a swordfighter making his own sword. And -invariably- theres a part where the sword is red hot and gets hammered on and then stuck in a bucket of water.

That's annealing and that's what you want to do. You want to get the piston rings hot enough where they can change shape and form a more perfect seal against the cylinder. Once they've reached that shape you want to cool everything off as quickly as possible, "freezing" the rings in shape, like the sword going into the bucket.

Most people hear about not running at full-throttle, and that's good because full-throttle -while heating up the engine quickly- doesn't give time for the rings to find grooves and change shape. Instead the edge of the ports scrape against the piston rings and tiny imperfections break off leaving gaps, instead of being smooshed down- filing gaps. Alot of people don't hear about trying to quickly cool the motor. I've seen AHRMA racers pack ice around their cylinders, trying to assist a quick cool-down.

Your best bet for a good break in is to run the bike around the block, varying the throttle, never holding the throttle in any one position for very long. After 20-30 minutes of ride bring the bike to a sudden stop and pull the covers off. Spray the cylinder with a hose or pile some ice on top of it, if you really want to get into it. But basically let the engine cool off completely. Do this process maybe three or four times, or until the engine sees at least 100 miles.

At that point you should be good to go wide open throttle for short periods or cruise some distance at 80% throttle. After about 200 miles of that, you should be ready to rip. After about 500 miles you should be ready to rip distance with a passenger.

The 'easy for 300 miles' rule has the same effect as all this without the monkeying around, but if you need to break a bike in quickly you can use the hot/cold/hot/cold method. Also, letting your bike idle for a break-in is not a good idea. At idle, the cylinder receives the least amount of lubrication, and doesn't stress/heat the rings at the same locations in the cylinder as when you're actually running the bike.

Alot of this also depends on the quality of the cylinder. The closer the manufacturing tolerances are between rings and cylinders, the easier the break-in goes. Malossi kits usually recommend 45minutes of 3/4 throttle for break-in. I called Malossi about this and talked to one of their tech guys. he said: "yeah, it's actually more like 5 minutes, we say 45 to be safe." Personally I believe him, but I'd rather protect my investment in a malossi kit & my labor with a more liberal break-in...anyways...."
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addicted wrote:
Most of us have used a hacksaw to cut metal, or an electric drill to bore a hole in metal. In the process, we've discovered that if we saw or drill too fast or furious, the cutting action ceases as we overheat the cutting tool and the metal work piece. We may have also observed that once we've glazed (overheated) the work piece, we've hampered the cutting process.

The same protocol applies with engine break-in. If we push a fresh engine hard, cylinder walls glaze-over and rings do not properly bed. If we push too hard, piston rings will micro-weld in their groves. Critical bearing surfaces will also glaze-over.
Piston rings aren't working in the same way as a saw. Compression rings will either be steel or complex cast iron. In either case they will be molly or chrome plated and the base material will have gone through several heat treatments. They are then "lapped" at the factory inside cast iron pots. These pots are turned and thread bored to an exact size, the rings are loaded onto a carrier and pounded up and down inside it. Voila, your rings are run in!

The oil ring is bacically scraping oil up an down the cylinder and again has chrome plate lands (this ring is newer engines is made up of 2 rails and an expander spring), This ring is also lapped.

The intermediate ring (if the piston has one), does a bit of oil scraping and helps with compression, this is the simplest ring and has no hard plating as such. This plain ring is the only one which isn't lapped. Its contact edge is small and they are acid etched, then are given a penetrative coating that kind of softens the outer edge. This edge will deform and seal almost immediatley.

In short there may or may not be benefits from hard or soft running in, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it
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UTC quote
i'm staying out of this one.

i build race car motors for a living, and i also build high performance street car motors as well. let's just say that there's a distinct difference in how each is broken in depending on if i only need it for 500mi or if i want it to last 100K plus.

best,
-greasy
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Rings are made to close tolerances from various tempered alloys. One can say the same of all parts manufacture. Engine parts need to conform to their mating surfaces. The only methods of conforming are cutting and polishing.

Here's an article written by Ron Dickey of Axtell Sales, specifically on a single aspect of ring seal.
Quote:
Ring Seal
In this article, I would like to go over the importance of sealing in a performance engine. It goes
without saying that if any of the sealing points are compromised; your power is going to suffer. I'll leave
the valves (including guides and seals) up to experts in that area. Have your heads done by a company
specializing in H-D performance- not the local auto parts shop. I will concentrate on our specialty: the
rings, pistons, and cylinders.
Ring seal and its effect on engine output cannot be overstressed. The rings have two sealing
responsibilities: the cylinder wall and the piston groove. We have seen power jump significantly by
replacing the pistons and rings and restoring the bore integrity. Sometimes the pistons looked fine but
the ring lands had been damaged during break-in due to heat; I'll give an example later that was
particularly vivid.
Lets discuss the cylinder wall first. Ideally, the cylinder bore should be straight and round when
in use. In use means stressed---HOT---and trying to make enough power to get you up that mountain or
down that track.
Quality control checking is done in a temperature-controlled environment with a measured
amount of mechanical stress applied to the cylinder. But in the real world, the cylinder body has large
temperature variances- from top to bottom and front to back. Its stress load changes with temperature
and power output, yet we ask it to remain stable. It is in the design and engineering stages that the
stability has to be built in. Some cylinders, no matter how carefully machined, are just not designed well
enough to stay straight in use. A cylinder bore that is out of round isn't desirable, but one that is tapered
or wavy is much worse. As the piston travels up and down, the rings have to contract and expand to
follow the bore. In certain rpm ranges, the ring loses its seal (with the bore) and blow-by occurs (ever
have your breather puke on your leg?). Pistons that rock in the bore due to short skirts and sloppy
running clearances also doom effective long-term sealing.
When we break in an engine we are asking the machined surfaces that contact each other to get
"happy". Break in has been described as " the final machining process". For some areas of the engine
that means very little material removal, just polishing. Other areas might use a cross hatch or "file"
finish to help the two surfaces to get "happy". I believe the more out of round a bore is, the rougher the
cross hatch has to be in order to mate up the parts before the hatch is worn down. Conversely, the
straighter a cylinder bore is the less the required crosshatch. Same logic on rings---place your new rings
individually into a round bore and hold up to a light. If you can see light between the rings and cylinder,
go get another ring.
The ring also has to seal "to the groove" to prevent air and/or oil from going where we don't
want it. The machining quality of the ring and piston must be very high. If not, the engine output will be
mediocre and overall engine life will be short. If you want some gray hair, take a set of new rings and
examine them under a microscope. What looked to be smooth to the naked eye is anything but!
The top ring has a terrible environment in which to do a hard job. It lives in the highest pressures
and temperatures with the least amount of lubrication. It must seal both high and low pressure while
carrying heat from the piston dome to the cylinder wall. It is sometimes pummeled by detonation or preignition
and rocked by piston to cylinder clearance. The modern ring does an amazing job when broken
in properly, but that is the challenge.
Hastings Ring Company's engineers tell me that all rings will turn in the groove until properly
seated. Until this happens, heat transfer is limited because the mating surfaces are small in area. This
raises the temperature levels in the areas in which the surfaces are mated; it's like evacuating a city
across a drawbridge. If the ring temperature gets too high, the aluminum groove will be ruined by microwelding.
This is an exchange of a small amount of material from the piston groove to the ring. Once this
happens, the engine is forever a mediocre player until the pistons and rings are replaced.
A Ring Seal Story to Beat All
A customer contracted us to build a XL engine soon after the Evo came out. I knew that 120 hp
was possible, but promised him 115 to have a cushion to fall back on in case the donor engine wasn't
real happy to start with. Anyway, we get the engine built and on the dyno. We were pretty familiar with
the combination and in no time we were ready for a power run. This engine pulled clean up to 6500rpm,
but the dyno said 102hp. No problem- put in more fuel. Next run nets 97hp. What the hell??? We must
have gone the wrong way- lean it down. Dyno says 92 hp. I am amazed.... The engine sounded so good
we figured it must be the dyno. So, out came the deadweights and we re-certified. Damn dyno was ok.
Changed carbs, pipes, timing...nothing, the Evo is parked at 92hp. Friday night- lets quit.
When building this engine, one of my technicians had installed base gaskets which we normally
don't use on Sportsters, and they were starting to push out a little. He came in on Saturday and pulled
the cylinders off and went to sealer instead of the gaskets. He told me Monday that he also replaced the
rear ring set because it felt spongy!?
I thought that description was pretty un-scientific, but what the hell--- his heart was in the right
place. So off we go.... Warmed engine and oil and made a pull.... 92 damn hp!! I am astounded because
the engine showed no visible ailments. I had the tech pull the top end off the engine and stared at
everything.... It looked great!! I was wandering around muttering to myself and stumbled on to the rings
that were removed over the weekend and examined them closely. They had a light speckling that was
aluminum colored on the sides. I had never seen this before and finally called J-E to ask if they had.
YUP...you micro-welded the rings.
Never heard of such a thing, how does it happen??
"Early on in the break-in the rings got too hot- replace the pistons, they're shot." I could not
believe it---the pistons looked new except for normal combustion on the top, how could they be the
problem?
This time the new pistons and rings were installed with well-oiled grooves. Since we had not
disturbed the bottom end we knew the timing was good so we went back to the old-school heat cycling
that we hadn't used in years. This gentle ramping up of heat in the engine gives the rings more time to
nest to the groove before real heat and pressure is seen. First run---stand on the gas----123hp!!!! I am
both astounded and tickled because a valuable lesson was learned... I am pretty sure that if this had not
happened on a controlled dyno, this lesson would have been lost. Without measurement, the discrepancy
in horsepower would not have been known and highway miles would have polished off the speckles. I
also now had an answer for another half-dozen mediocre engines that I had been in contact with!
The harsh truth behind this story is that there are unseen demons at work in your motor. If you
want to get your old engine to really shine, rings may not be enough; replace those pistons!! And to
avoid ruining the new ones, heat cycle your motor on break-in.
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UTC quote
Save bandwidth, follow the owners manual.

Dave
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Like I said I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it. We aren't talking about high tuned race engines here, we're talking about a 21 HP 4 stroke single. I'm not saying running in hard or soft is good or bad, I'm just saying it's not worth worrying about!.

You can find and quote a lot of info from the web on this subject, but I worked as a production engineer in a piston ring factory for 13 years. I'm not quoting what I've heard or read. I'm telling you what I know about about how rings work and how they're made.

If my GTS blows up I've always got that bombproof Piaggio warranty to fall back on Laughing emoticon
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How you treat your Vespa during break-in may determine it's operation and longevity. That warrants consideration.
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UTC quote
Ride hard put it away wet!
Ride hard put it away wet!
@babyarms avatar
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Hooked
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UTC quote
Re: Ride hard put it away wet!
Lucky Bastard wrote:
Ride hard put it away wet!
I'm with that bastard
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UTC quote
Re: Ride hard put it away wet!
Lucky Bastard wrote:
Ride hard put it away wet!
Thats a bit too much for me ..I have to wipe it down
UTC

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UTC quote
So 200 miles into my run in I've been pulling away hard but not going near the top speed. Typical city riding really.

Is this more or less what we're getting at here. Just ride as hard as you want but don't go near the top speed for a while and don't keep the revs at a constant for prolonged periods of time?
UTC

Addicted
PX200 for aeons, Lambrettas in "60's",My wife's GTS250 when I'm good.
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Addicted
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UTC quote
I'm with Tim
Initially little journeys and good cool down time.
Whatever, OIL OIL OIL change it a lot its a small sump and has to work hard.
I believe in mineral oil when new as well.

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