Molto Verboso
S 190. Custom VNB 150
Joined: 04 May 2009
Posts: 1485
Location: CT
 
Molto Verboso
S 190. Custom VNB 150
Joined: 04 May 2009
Posts: 1485
Location: CT
i am enjoying watching the show...
but i have two questions.
with your air filter, did you have any problem with not having "backpressure" i wanted to but a cone filter on mine but i did not know if it would mess with the carb? (i do not have a racing carb but it is a "newer" style keline) i am wondering if it would work for me.

also in all the part hutting you have done have you found anywhere that sell crankberings for the 150? it seems to be a lost cause to find for anyone i have asked.

i also like the comment about no one on here is giving you the "BUY A BIGGER SCOOTER" comment. i use to get it alot when i was tinkering with mine. good to see others understand, but i can't say i ever came close to going this over the top.

keep the posts comming

Hooked
vespa gts 300i super
Joined: 24 May 2012
Posts: 326
Location: England uk
 
Hooked
vespa gts 300i super
Joined: 24 May 2012
Posts: 326
Location: England uk
Can you actually buy crank bearings for that engine?
because a lot of Piaggio leader engines you cant,

you have buy new two new crankcases .

Molto Verboso
S 190. Custom VNB 150
Joined: 04 May 2009
Posts: 1485
Location: CT
 
Molto Verboso
S 190. Custom VNB 150
Joined: 04 May 2009
Posts: 1485
Location: CT
ridinhigh wrote:
Can you actually buy crank bearings for that engine?
because a lot of Piaggio leader engines you cant,

you have buy new two new crankcases .
they say you cant, but i find it hard to beleve that no one makes and aftermarket retro-fit for it. i would think even though crank berrings are usally fine if you ever need to replace a crank, it would be cheap insurance to replace them aswell when you are there.

why do they make berrings for your gears but not for the crank, are they really that different of tollerences that one would never have to be replaced. just seems like a waste to but new crankcases when a $20 berring is all you need.

Banned
2:6
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 8352
Location: San Francisco
 
Banned
2:6
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 8352
Location: San Francisco
The bearings in the reduction gears are ball bearings, they are standardized and widely available.

The bearings on the crank are plain bearings so until someone can find a source and figure out the proper method to remove the old and install the new we are SOL.

Addicted
Lambretta child
Joined: 04 Aug 2010
Posts: 510
Location: Midwest, West Oz
 
Addicted
Lambretta child
Joined: 04 Aug 2010
Posts: 510
Location: Midwest, West Oz
Do the Leader engines have plain bearings at all even, or are they just crank-on-saddle (no bearings at all) like most camshaft-in-head set-ups?

Either/or, it would be possible to line bore the cases and gring the crank slightly to suit readily available off-the-shelf plain or tri-metal bearings, but the cost involved would only be slightly cheaper than buying new cases, just going by the costs fr machine work available to me locally anyway.

You can run an airfilter pod on anything, either flatslide, smoothbore or CV (vacuum) carb. The CV carbs though, rely on vacuum passing through the inlet of the carb and into the diaphragm chamber to actually lift the piston/needle under load, and a lot of them are very sensitive to changes in the vacuum source (eg, opened up airbox or a pod filter). You can get around this by using an air correction jet for the mains, and sometimes you can alter te size of the airbleed hole that feeds the diaphragm chamber (by drilling or filling/drilling), but it does take a bit of setting up to get them to work properly, and some are much easier than others. Also on a single cylinder, the intake pulses are particularly sudden, and so a CV carb can "flutter" when cruising, causing the engine speed to "hunt" on steady throttle, very annoying. For most of these reasons, most people doing abit of performance stuff usually go to PE/VM/CR etc carbs, just so much easier.

Molto Verboso
S 190. Custom VNB 150
Joined: 04 May 2009
Posts: 1485
Location: CT
 
Molto Verboso
S 190. Custom VNB 150
Joined: 04 May 2009
Posts: 1485
Location: CT
thanks for the knowlage guys. i like the wiki link as well, i was under the impression they were the same berrings as in the gear box.

my air box works fine right now with a UNI high flow air filter and i wanted to toss the air box and put in a cone. (more for looks than performance at this point.) i think i will give it a try and if it don't work after a weekend of tinkering i will only be out 20 bucks.

thanks for the insight!

Hooked
Zip50 hyperscooter 188cc
Joined: 27 Feb 2012
Posts: 156
Location: Athens,Greece
 
Hooked
Zip50 hyperscooter 188cc
Joined: 27 Feb 2012
Posts: 156
Location: Athens,Greece
I sent an email to scooter-center.com to ask for more informations about the stroker crankshaft

Technik Support technik@scooter-center.com address doesn't exist,i got a "mailer-demon" notice.
I tried also to contact with info@scooter-center.com but a week later,i haven't got my anwser yet.
So,i think that this is a very risky modification.

Addicted
Lambretta child
Joined: 04 Aug 2010
Posts: 510
Location: Midwest, West Oz
 
Addicted
Lambretta child
Joined: 04 Aug 2010
Posts: 510
Location: Midwest, West Oz
Gday Dyna.
I didn't an answer to my email either, so ended up ringing them.
I do have to say though, that with my recent order for bits and pieces to get started on my little scoot, I was impressed with the quick email replies and quality of servicve from Scooter-Centre, once the order had been placed.
It would be nice to have a contact for KB Kubler Racing in Bonn (who make the crankshaft) to get a few more details, but as yet I've been unable to find them. The language barrier for me is making it difficult. Until then, I'm with you, the Malossi kit is much easier with similar results.

Hooked
Zip50 hyperscooter 188cc
Joined: 27 Feb 2012
Posts: 156
Location: Athens,Greece
 
Hooked
Zip50 hyperscooter 188cc
Joined: 27 Feb 2012
Posts: 156
Location: Athens,Greece
MODNROD wrote:
Until then, I'm with you, the Malossi kit is much easier with similar results.
And remember,the Leader with the biggest valves that wins the race, not the that with the most cubic inches of displacement.

Member
Vespa ET4 200 Leader
Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 37
Location: Europe/Hungary
 
Member
Vespa ET4 200 Leader
Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 37
Location: Europe/Hungary
All you need is the Piaggio cylinder-piston kit,OEM Part Number:844113 and some gaskets of course.

The 200cc Piaggio cylinder 1:1 plug@play compatible with Vespa ET4 150 Leader engine?

Hooked
Zip50 hyperscooter 188cc
Joined: 27 Feb 2012
Posts: 156
Location: Athens,Greece
 
Hooked
Zip50 hyperscooter 188cc
Joined: 27 Feb 2012
Posts: 156
Location: Athens,Greece
Lipton wrote:
All you need is the Piaggio cylinder-piston kit,OEM Part Number:844113 and some gaskets of course.

The 200cc Piaggio cylinder 1:1 plug@play compatible with Vespa ET4 150 Leader engine?
That's right!
Don't forget to order the gaskets.

Member
Vespa ET4 200 Leader
Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 37
Location: Europe/Hungary
 
Member
Vespa ET4 200 Leader
Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 37
Location: Europe/Hungary
Realy?
WOW! OMG! Yeah! 8)

The original 150cc cylinder compression ratio 1:11.1, the 200cc cylinder compression ratio just 9,5:1. (Malossi 190cc compression ratio 11.5:1.)
Is is possible to increase the compress ratio with a new piston? On the original 200cc piston the pit seems too deep.

http://www.scooter-center.com/scoweb/pages/productdetail.grid?product=288621640928320&target=productdetail&category1=A%3AA_VESPA%3AA_PIAGGIO_ET4150LEADER&category2=CAT%3ACAT_ZYLINDER


Hmmm...
I'm confused.
This seller has written that the cylinder does not fit the ET4 150 Leader block.

http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130771236185&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:IT:1123

Hooked
Zip50 hyperscooter 188cc
Joined: 27 Feb 2012
Posts: 156
Location: Athens,Greece
 
Hooked
Zip50 hyperscooter 188cc
Joined: 27 Feb 2012
Posts: 156
Location: Athens,Greece
Lipton wrote:
Hmmm...
I'm confused.
This seller has written that the cylinder does not fit the ET4 150 Leader block.

http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130771236185&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:IT:1123
According to the malossi table,the big bore kit with part number 3111393,fits to the following models:
www.malossistore.eu

APRILIA APRILIA MOJITO RY 125 4T (LEADER)
APRILIA APRILIA SPORTCITY ONE 125 4T (LEADER M38AM)
BENELLI BENELLI ADIVA 125 4T (LEADER)
BENELLI BENELLI ADIVA 150 4T (LEADER)
DERBI DERBI BOULEVARD 125 4T (LEADER)
DERBI DERBI BOULEVARD 150 4T (LEADER)
ITALJET ITALJET JET SET 125 4T (LEADER)
ITALJET ITALJET JET SET 150 4T (LEADER)
ITALJET ITALJET TORPEDO 125 4T (LEADER)
ITALJET ITALJET TORPEDO 150 4T (LEADER)
PIAGGIO PIAGGIO FLY 125 4T euro 2-3 (LEADER M422M)
PIAGGIO PIAGGIO FLY 150 4T euro 2-3 (LEADER M422M)
PIAGGIO PIAGGIO LIBERTY 125 4T euro 3 (LEADER M389M)
PIAGGIO PIAGGIO LIBERTY S 125 4T euro 3 (LEADER M381M)
PIAGGIO PIAGGIO LIBERTY 150 4T euro 3 (LEADER M672M)
PIAGGIO PIAGGIO LIBERTY - LIBERTY LE 125 4T euro 1-2 (LEADER)
PIAGGIO PIAGGIO LIBERTY - LIBERTY LE 150 4T euro 1-2 (LEADER)
PIAGGIO PIAGGIO SKIPPER ST 125 4T (LEADER)
PIAGGIO PIAGGIO SKIPPER ST 150 4T (LEADER)
PIAGGIO PIAGGIO TYPHOON 125 4T euro 3 (LEADER M701M)
PIAGGIO PIAGGIO ZIP 125 4T (LEADER)
RENAULT RENAULT FULLTIME 125 4T (LEADER)
VESPA VESPA ET4 125 4T (LEADER)
VESPA VESPA ET4 150 4T (LEADER )
VESPA VESPA LX 125 4T (LEADER)
VESPA VESPA LX 150 4T (LEADER)
VESPA VESPA S 125 4T euro 3 (LEADER M444M)
VESPA VESPA S 150 4T euro 3 (LEADER)


At the same models,the liberty 200 cylinder kit fits as well.

Member
Vespa ET4 200 Leader
Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 37
Location: Europe/Hungary
 
Member
Vespa ET4 200 Leader
Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 37
Location: Europe/Hungary
Ok! I believe you!
Then i order the original 200cc cylinder kit.
Thanks!

Hooked
Zip50 hyperscooter 188cc
Joined: 27 Feb 2012
Posts: 156
Location: Athens,Greece
 
Hooked
Zip50 hyperscooter 188cc
Joined: 27 Feb 2012
Posts: 156
Location: Athens,Greece
Food for thought.

This is a liquid cooled cylinder head from a 4valve leader engine.
Gilera runner,piaggio beverly,x8,x9,vespa granturismo 125,etc use this engine.
Cylinder head cover,camshaft sprocket,crankshaft and crankcase are the same with aircooled leader.
The black plastic cooling shroud seems to match around the 4valve head and the distances between the head's screws are the same.

I am sure that this head is a plug n' play modification but what happens to a LC head if we use it as an aircooled by vespa's fan support?
Had i to fill the water passages with something like molten lead to help the heat transfer?










Ossessionato
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 2091
Location: Santa Margarita,Ca.
 
Ossessionato
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 2091
Location: Santa Margarita,Ca.
Patrick had to extend the swingarm to get the gt200 engine in the LX, so there might be a height issue with the head, unless the diference is in the cylinder, or maybe it was the exhaust header. Beyond that, have you considered keeping the head liquid cooled? I've tossed around an electric pump and a radiator under the scooter with an air scoop spoiler/fairing. Also, can you confirm that the oil passages line up? If so, it would be interesting to mock it up and see how everything measures up clearance and valve timing wise. Very interested in this. Alternatively to liquid cooling the head, what are the prospects of grinding away the waterjacket, leaving enough material to graft in cooling fins?

Banned
2:6
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 8352
Location: San Francisco
 
Banned
2:6
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Posts: 8352
Location: San Francisco
The valve cover on the AC and LC heads are quite different in shape, bolt count, and bolt location. I think the cylinders are the same height so the extra that causes clearance issues has to be in the head. The clearance issue is due to position and size of the exhaust compared to the AC. At that point you may as well go full LC.

Hooked
Zip50 hyperscooter 188cc
Joined: 27 Feb 2012
Posts: 156
Location: Athens,Greece
 
Hooked
Zip50 hyperscooter 188cc
Joined: 27 Feb 2012
Posts: 156
Location: Athens,Greece
scootermarc69 wrote:
Also, can you confirm that the oil passages line up?
scootermarc69 wrote:
. Alternatively to liquid cooling the head, what are the prospects of grinding away the waterjacket, leaving enough material to graft in cooling fins?
You are in my mind.
oopsclunkthud wrote:
The clearance issue is due to position and size of the exhaust compared to the AC. At that point you may as well go full LC.
I have installed the leader engine on a ZIP50,it has a different engine mount and maybe i''ll be lucky with clearances.

for your Lc project.

Ossessionato
09 190s taormina
Joined: 08 Apr 2010
Posts: 2083
Location: Googleville
 
Ossessionato
09 190s taormina
Joined: 08 Apr 2010
Posts: 2083
Location: Googleville
scootermarc69 wrote:
Alternatively to liquid cooling the head, what are the prospects of grinding away the waterjacket, leaving enough material to graft in cooling fins?
Yeah, this?

Member
Vespa ET4 200 Leader
Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 37
Location: Europe/Hungary
 
Member
Vespa ET4 200 Leader
Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 37
Location: Europe/Hungary
dynagrego wrote:
That's right!
Don't forget to order the gaskets.
How can I tell how dick the gasket should be between the cylinder and the cancase? Three different sizes are existing: 0.4, 0,6 and 0,8mm.

Measure the old one?

Addicted
Lambretta child
Joined: 04 Aug 2010
Posts: 510
Location: Midwest, West Oz
 
Addicted
Lambretta child
Joined: 04 Aug 2010
Posts: 510
Location: Midwest, West Oz
The best way would be to measure the new cylinder and piston height on the cases, then select the base gasket thickness to give you the correct piston height for correct squish and clearance.
How expensive are the base gaskets? Are they cheap enough to get all three to make sure you're covered?

Member
Vespa ET4 200 Leader
Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 37
Location: Europe/Hungary
 
Member
Vespa ET4 200 Leader
Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 37
Location: Europe/Hungary
4EUR/piece


currrent status:




Addicted
Lambretta child
Joined: 04 Aug 2010
Posts: 510
Location: Midwest, West Oz
 
Addicted
Lambretta child
Joined: 04 Aug 2010
Posts: 510
Location: Midwest, West Oz
You didn't need to go that far just to clean it!

Looks like my place, bits of bikes everywhere.

Molto Verboso
2007 LX190 RIP 1980 Honda CM400T SOLD 2013 Shadow 750 RIP
Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 1496
Location: Crofton,MD
 
Molto Verboso
2007 LX190 RIP 1980 Honda CM400T SOLD 2013 Shadow 750 RIP
Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 1496
Location: Crofton,MD
Is that the new MP4 in the corner?

Member
Vespa ET4 200 Leader
Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 37
Location: Europe/Hungary
 
Member
Vespa ET4 200 Leader
Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 37
Location: Europe/Hungary
Exactly!
I ordered the 200cc cylinder and Polini primary gears.

Member
LX150
Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Posts: 7
Location: Malaysia
 
Member
LX150
Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Posts: 7
Location: Malaysia
Questions regarding Vespa malossi 190 kit
Iv installed 2 kit now on the vespa LX150 carb version, but seems that i have to grind the piston for valve clearance.

There were few thread on this forum regarding the installation of this kit but seems that there were no grinding involved.

Did i missed out any step?

Please help.

Thanks heaps

Addicted
Lambretta child
Joined: 04 Aug 2010
Posts: 510
Location: Midwest, West Oz
 
Addicted
Lambretta child
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Posts: 510
Location: Midwest, West Oz
Double-check and triple-check your camshaft timing. It's easily pulled out of whack a couple of teeth on the sprockets when the timing chain is tensioned up on some maotors, and that can cause the valves to "kiss" a bit.

Member
LX150
Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Posts: 7
Location: Malaysia
 
Member
LX150
Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Posts: 7
Location: Malaysia
Will try that again, if according to the marking i have to grind off few milimetres

Hooked
Zip50 hyperscooter 188cc
Joined: 27 Feb 2012
Posts: 156
Location: Athens,Greece
 
Hooked
Zip50 hyperscooter 188cc
Joined: 27 Feb 2012
Posts: 156
Location: Athens,Greece
Check the valve timing as MONROD said and the thickness of the cylinder base gasket according to the manual.
Liberty 200 and LX 150 150 use the SAME cylinder head with part number 82777R
You can check it here:
http://www.motorky-skutre.sk/prilohy/skutreod100/piaggio/liberty%20200/Liberty%20200%204T%20(Euro%203).pdf
http://www.vespagenuineparts.co.uk/component-vespa-lx-150-4t-e3-2006-head-unit-valve-3502.php

Member
LX150
Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Posts: 7
Location: Malaysia
 
Member
LX150
Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Posts: 7
Location: Malaysia
Thanks very much guys, will get a new piston and do it right. Have to do this right, feel not as much power for a 190cc.

Member
LX150
Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Posts: 7
Location: Malaysia
 
Member
LX150
Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Posts: 7
Location: Malaysia
Hi guys, im pulling my motor apart again, so do i need to pull out the crank timing wheel to adjust the chain?

Thanks very much

Member
Vespa ET4 200 Leader
Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 37
Location: Europe/Hungary
 
Member
Vespa ET4 200 Leader
Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 37
Location: Europe/Hungary
ET4 150 -> ET4 200 (Liberty 200cc cylinder)



Hooked
Zip50 hyperscooter 188cc
Joined: 27 Feb 2012
Posts: 156
Location: Athens,Greece
 
Hooked
Zip50 hyperscooter 188cc
Joined: 27 Feb 2012
Posts: 156
Location: Athens,Greece
This is really a big bore cylinder!
I am very sad because i paid double for the malossi kit.

Member
Vespa ET4 200 Leader
Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 37
Location: Europe/Hungary
 
Member
Vespa ET4 200 Leader
Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 37
Location: Europe/Hungary
Could you please make for me a camshaft like yours?
If it is possible how much does it cost?

Hooked
Zip50 hyperscooter 188cc
Joined: 27 Feb 2012
Posts: 156
Location: Athens,Greece
 
Hooked
Zip50 hyperscooter 188cc
Joined: 27 Feb 2012
Posts: 156
Location: Athens,Greece
I wish I could help you but I can't,this is not my job and now i haven't plenty of time.
This is the machine shop that reprofiled my camshaft,maybe the best in Greece.
http://boubiscams.gr/

He has kept the measurements in his database,so you can mail him about sending your camshaft.Don't forget to ask him about nitriding if you can't find a local shop to do this.

Member
Vespa ET4 200 Leader
Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 37
Location: Europe/Hungary
 
Member
Vespa ET4 200 Leader
Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 37
Location: Europe/Hungary
Thanks!

In real life not white, rather little bit vanilla.



Member
Vespa ET4 200 Leader
Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 37
Location: Europe/Hungary
 
Member
Vespa ET4 200 Leader
Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 37
Location: Europe/Hungary
What torque to use on my cylinder head screws?

12nm -> 16nm -> +90 degree?

Hooked
Zip50 hyperscooter 188cc
Joined: 27 Feb 2012
Posts: 156
Location: Athens,Greece
 
Hooked
Zip50 hyperscooter 188cc
Joined: 27 Feb 2012
Posts: 156
Location: Athens,Greece
Lipton wrote:
What torque to use on my cylinder head screws?

12nm -> 16nm -> +90 degree?







Member
Vespa ET4 200 Leader
Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 37
Location: Europe/Hungary
 
Member
Vespa ET4 200 Leader
Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 37
Location: Europe/Hungary
Thanks!




10" -> 12"








Almost done!

Member
Vespa ET4 200 Leader
Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 37
Location: Europe/Hungary
 
Member
Vespa ET4 200 Leader
Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 37
Location: Europe/Hungary
Yeah!


   

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