Modern Vespa

I never really liked the look of the P series, maybe it's an age thing but particularly the horncast just doesn't look right to me.
I haven't ridden many - so that's why I'd like your thoughts - but in the last couple of weeks had a go on 3 P-series bikes... I have to admit I was pretty impressed. To be honest I had expected that there would be very little difference in 'feel' between the earlier and later models, don't know why I should think that!

The biggest impression of the P when riding was one of 'solidity' - compared to mine they feel almost cut from a single block or something. Also way less rattles (what's the cure for rattles in the headset?) and steadier somehow on the road. They don't have a different rake angle on the fork tube , do they?

Before anyone says 8" wheels, mine was converted a little while back, and the couple of others I've ridden were also on 10s, one with a P front end in it (brakes better but didn't feel like a P).

What are your impressions?

See if you can get a shot of a Rally 200 . . . different beast to all the other classics . . . 10 inch wheels & power to match.

The only thing that was revolutionary on the P was the way the fork worked. All vespas before that time have the shoes mounted to the trailing link of the suspension. This causes the braking force to wind up the suspension causing dive. Some of the forks prior to the P were better than others but they all suffered this same weakness (as did almost all other scooters as well).

With the introduction of the P the shoes were allowed to rotate on the axle and a strut type shock is used to transfer the braking force. The braking force is orthogonal to the motion of the shock so none of the force goes into the spring. The only dive you get on the P fork is from weight transfer. This same design is still used today on the PX as well as all the modern vespas.

My first scoot was a p and my secound was a rally 180.

Loved them both.

They were different.

Most rattles in the headset come from mirrors or turn signals. Sometimes the headlight and the last offender is the shift tubes.

Mirrors have big lever arms that the vibrations love to swing around, stout brackets help.

Turn signals and headlights I usually dampen with a dot or two of rtv here and there.

The shift tubes do eventually wear their mating surfaces. I replace the stock spring/shim and test. If it continues to rattle, I add the weaker P spring or washers until it stops. Many of these rattle simply because they were put back together without the washers! The throttle side has a spring that wraps around the tube and then is fastened under the brake lever nut.

Anyone ever tried adding weights to the tubes?

I agree with something my Vegematic friend said... Solidity. When I ride my P it feels like a tank compared to the vnb or the super.. I've always felt more "secure" and "planted" on a P... I like how they look, I like how a lot of different models look if they're done well, but for riding at higher speeds the P gets my vote every time.
I've used bar end weights and they do help with vibration believe it or not.. I doubted something so small could make a difference, but I found they did... not earth shattering, stop the presses vibration free, but an improvement nonetheless.
P's R good bikes... and have their place in the evolution of scooter design and style... embrace it for what it is, and experience the heavy duty, solid feel you deserve! Go ahead... probe one to determine the scooter's muscle tone and skeletal girth sometime... you'll like what you find!... it's a full figured gal who knows how to party!
*brought to you by citizens for a more angluar world.

Aha! That explains it then! I do need to take a closer look here.... although I've never seen the throttle spring you mention, could you possibly take a picture or link to it?
There does seem to be a fair amount of play on the wearing surfaces between the tube and the headset, I'd wondered abot somehow inserting some thin nylon sheet, sort of a shim I guess.

I'm wondering now if it was possible to get rid of the rattles, would that make mine feel more solid? The ones that I've seen stick out the ends, right? Kind of like Hella indicators but solid? I know a guy who made his own sinkers for fishing... I had thought about casting some end weights that would sit inside the tubes somehow.

I have the same impressions, and I don't really understand how they can feel that different.

In my avatar, the white PX and the green GL both have px200 engines. One has a px fork, the other a pk fork. The green one has clauss engine mounts, the white one doesn't. The GL has stiffer shocks and a disk brake, the PX doesn't. The two scoots shouldn't really be that different.

Yet the PX feels so much more solid.
It's heavier up front, and weighs about 20-30 kgs more than the GL. For some reason it feels like there is a lot less flexing and twisting in the frame as I go through corners compared to the GL.

Another thing I have noticed is the difference in the feel of the motors. The yello VGLA is running the green GL's original motor.
The GL motor has so much smoother shifting. Pressing down the top of the clutch with two fingers and it pops into the next gear without much lurching. The EFL gearing on my PX200 engines don't do that. I can short shift, but it doesn't feel as smooth. My PX motors clunk more when shifting, but rarely pop out of gear. The GL might miss a gear when I shift too carelessly, though.

Even though the GL motor is running a 23/64 upgear, the spacing between the gears is different than in the EFL motor. The gap between 1st and 2nd is a little larger than usual, while 2nd, 3rd and 4th are quite closely spaced. Combined with the an alu-pinasco 177, lighter weight, pep2 exhaust and a 24 carb the yello VGLA is quite a bit more peppy than the white mostly stock PX. But it's a lot more wobbly.

That made me think that the tube/tunnel that links the front and rear sections may be taller and therefore stiffer on a P.
I measured a VBB frame I have, it's 71mm from the top of the flange (just in front of the stand holes - centre of the picture below) to the top of the tunnel. Same spot on a VBC, about 68 or 9mm. How tall is a P at that spot without the mat?

Agree with comments, there is a noticable difference, but as mentioned I'd put the Rally 200 in the same class as the Ps.

After a daylong ride, often swapping my GL & Rally, my buddy(experienced MC rider) referred to my GL as 'the flexible flyer'. Headset's tight, frame's just not as rigid. I ALWAYS pick Rally if I have to go at all far away.

But Cosa wins. I wonder if anybody else reading this thread has actually been on a Cosa? Cuz the Cosa is to the Rally like the Rally is to the GL. Giant shock, bigger wheels & tires, wider stiffer frame & wider front motor mount + some aerodynamics(wind tunnel tested even) - they got some stuff right on it. I'm kind of a 'fraidy cat regarding speed and go MUCH faster on Cosa vs Rally. That flat throttle spring looks like a question mark w/ no dot. It puts a slight drag against the throttle closing, so you aren't always working against the spring. Sorta works, not totally necessary.

You ARE on to a fix there. On my first Vespa I had the same loose, worn tubes/bores you describe. I cut strips out of a liter & half plastic Coke bottle, greased them up good and wrapped around the tubes while installing(takes 2 per). You can 'adjust' the fit with the length of strip/number of wraps. I did 1 1/2 to 2 wraps I think. It works well, now they turn like silk & no more rattle/buzz - shifts better too.

That's exactly my price range! I'll give that one a try on the weekend... what stops it slipping out? Did you put tape around the tubes so the 'shim' doesn't come out?

I do know a couple of guys with Rallys but not really well enough to ask for a ride and throw it through a few turns...

Ok, now you've got me worried...







Actually, I did keep checking at first. Seems that getting it 'just' tight enough keeps it in place. Or at least it has . You know, you could make just one long piece if you cut windows in it. More hassle, but should solve the problem if you like insurance. Ever get to Seattle? Or offer to swap sometime, they'll do it just so you'll be all impressed with their modern scooter.

Well I have to do something, the rattle and buzz drives me crazy and not want to top it out through the gears.

Nah, was just kidding. And the one piece sounds too hard to keep in position after thinking more. Try the strips, EZ & if you solve the rattle, you'll find a way to keep 'em in. Mine are OK after 2 years so I wouldn't worry too much, just check occasionally at first.

On topic, who rides both a Rally 200 & a big P? Thoughts?

I don't ride a rally, but I swapped scoots with a guy who rode a rally. He took my yellow wobbly GL and I took his rally and we went for a ride.

The front forks were both original, though my GL has that fancy BGM f16 shock. Anyway, the Rally was a lot tighter. Not as tight as my PX, but way more solid feeling than the wobbly yellow GL.

Maybe there's a different angle to the steering column or some other clever detail they've changed?

I've only ever ridden my P and have no experience with other Vespas. I do like that it feels steady at 'high' speeds (90-100kph). Most people freak when I tell them it goes 60 mph and talk of vibrations and getting flung off the bike and other non-sense. Don't know anything about it.

When I passed my motorcycle road test, I got on the highway and was rippin' along at 105kph for 5 exits: steady as a barber's knife...just lots of noise from that SIP.

iv mostly ridden p series bikes. have to agree with Maggie though cos iv ridden an oldie with a px200 engine and it felt very floppy at a decent clip.

only thing steadier than my 200 is my t5. fork angle is kicked out a tiny bit on the mk1. don't know how much better that extra inch or so in the wheelbase is but it feels steadier. vibrates more though cos its at 7500rpm doing 100kmh

HI Guys.

A mate has a PX/LML, and I have VBB, we put them on a trailer to go to a rally, and there was a definite difference in wheelbase, as well as a visible difference in fork rake. I have done a bit of research, it turns out that the PX wheelbase is 1260mm and the earlier are about 1198mm or so....

Now I've noticed this, when I rode the PX, it was solid, the bars just felt like they wanted to point straight, nice and stable.... Where as my VBB, not so much, it feels a lot more loose, the bars don't "stick" straight like the PX...

This sucks a bit, cause I'm a little scared to push the VBB fast (Polini 187 !), as things can become wobbly...

Now reading on one of the other threads, there was mention of how the rake can be unintentionally decreased through changing wheels from 8 to 10...

Wrong engine in VBB
Do you recognise this fork?

So I'm thinking, I have a 52mm shock spacer in there now, what if swap it to a 26mm, this should lower the rear and thus change (increase) the rake of the fork. Scooter wont be level anymore, but meh.... stability is more important!

Any thoughts on this?

That would certainly make a difference, somehow I didn't even think of that!


Well it's pretty easy to do so it has that in favour... I just did a quick test in autocad and dropping the rear by 26mm would alter the rake by about 1.2 degrees. My gut feeling is you won't notice the difference, but if you can be bothered doing it then let's know how it turns out.

BTW, welcome to MV. Whereabouts are you? Was the rally at the Gold Coast?

1.2deg, well, Ill give it a try, pretty easy to do, see how it goes... Yeah, I was at the GC rally, What a hoot!!! We drove down from Rockhampton with 2 scoots on the trailer...

Ive been on MV a while, just couldn't get my old account to logon...

Would be interesting to see a chart of all 10" models listing:

Wheelbase
Weight, front/rear
Rake angle

Assuming shocks are the same, what else matters for 'handling' besides 'stiffness'?

In the last few pages of the book Vespa: Style in Motion there is such a chart, but no info on rake angle.

I trailered up from Ballarat with my girlfriend... she doesn't drive... ended up 4500k's round trip. Good rally, especially the ride down to Murwillubah.

I googled until my googlers were sore - I couldn't find any rake angles at all. So I put the picture below into autocad and scaled it. The rake would seem to be 24 degrees from vertical, providing the picture is fairly accurate.
That really doesn't mean anything to me however... I don't have a similar one of a P to compare to.

google tells me the px rake angle is 25.7. can't show my work though I'm afraid

No, that's in the other thread... Show us the view from where you work...



That much additional rake would add about 37mm to the wheelbase or about 3%. Would this alone be enough to be noticable? Who would know?

Ginch, How about a photo of a PX from the side? Can you work the angle-of-the-dangle on that?

http://www.raptorsandrockets.com/images/various/EICMA_2010/03-Vespa-PX-150.jpg


Your pic shows the WB at 1200, so its 60mm less than the PX, so maybe more of a rake difference than we think so far? or longer chassis and more rake combo...

There are plenty on google ect....

Got a pic of your scoot? I might remember it... Im contemplating next years rally and how to get there, your 4500km makes my trip look pu$$y in comparison, Rocky to Syd will be about 3200 round...[/url]

Cool thread.....You boys planning on going to the rally in Sydney next year?

Anybody here near Brisbane?

Well as far as I can measure it's 26 degrees which probably means Jackson's 25.7 would be right. I also measured the height of the "tunnel" piece which measured more or less the same as the earlier models. The steel could be thicker to resist twisting, other than that I don't know. Next year I am definitely going to ride up over 3 days or something with some friends. The Wild Dog Creek Scooter Club rode from Melbourne to Surfers this year, about 2200 k's one way... and they would have got back on and done it again the next day, no questions asked... I was so jealous.

Here's mine just before leaving for QLD... it's Verde Mela, looks green sometimes and kind of yellowish others. I had a pillion the whole time (she doesn't ride either )

How about a pic of yours too?

Were you there as well Bobo?

The only one here I know of is williamtell. The clubs up that way are the Canetoads from Brisbane and Borderline Nuisance.

Not the best pic, but mine on the left, mates on right...

Yours looks nice, can't remember it but your mate's looks familiar. Looks like you have a P front end in the VBB... and is that a Scoot.r.s. disc setup?

Yeah, its a PK fork, with scoot-RS disk setup, I'll take a few better picks tomorrow... The PK fork went in easy, length was perfect, just had to get two alu lugs welded on for steering stops, and a small metal tab for the steering lock. Even the front guard wasnt too bad, just opened up the hole a bit and made a few extra mounting bolt holes... The disk kit was good, only gripe is the poor quality of the banjo fittings and hose. I ended up replacing them with ABM german stuff....

Sorry, but you are very wrong. My '57 GS150 had 10" wheels. After the GS, all the Vespa models converted to 10" wheels, the GL, GTR, etc.

I love the smooth curves of the earlier models, and the all-metal construction. I have never liked the squared-off "chunky" look of the P series, or the plastic horncover and plastic handlebar top. I was not happy with the suspension of my P or PX, until I replaced the shocks with Bitubos and the bushes with polyurethane. Then they ran on rails.

The best runner of all my geared scooters was the Rally200. My P and PX were both disappointing after that.

My dream scootr wouild be a GS150 kitted with a PX engine. The PX engine is one of the most reliable on the road, but mine would be kitted out, of course, and would lose a bit of reliability as a result.

Mike

pics...

I still want to know if the rake angle is the same for the usual oldies, say after the widebodies and before the rebodied Ps & COSAs.

Back when dirtbike racing in the wild on my trials bike with a steep rake angle & short wheelbase, I was good in the woods. I always outran my buddies with their enduros until we hit the logging roads when they would leave me in the dust and it wasn't the power, it was the ride. My bike turned from agile pony into bucking bronco.

The longer the wheelbase and the further from verticle the rake angle, the more stable the ride will be, everything else being equal. This will be at the expense of 'agility'. I've tried to find specific info on Vespa rake angle specs. Not much to find , but I found this interesting - the difference 1/4 degree made in this case. A small difference in specified rake angle between these Vespa models could be significant.

& agree Rally200 best they made for blend of characteristics(including looks), but homely COSA is still a better ride. Hands down.


This is a VERY rigid frame, look at the boxed section housing the fork. Zero wobble. No legshield/floorpan flex. You can see the WIDER motor 'stance' as well.


Motor is the same size except width of front mount & longer shock mount.

So the lower 26mm spacer might make a difference... I though I had one, but i cant find it/ never had it... my usual suppliers are out of stock of this item, so ill ave to wait a while to try it...

Sure can't hurt, drop the fanny, increase the rake angle a bit. If you can find one...

Cosa seems to have even more rake

http://www.flickr.com/photos/straightnochaser/3064154214/lightbox/

Were you there as well Bobo?[/quote]

Nah the wife would've skinned me if I took off for a week on the Vespa. That's why I'm looking forward to next year. I do the odd ride with The 'Ardly Normal Crew and they're organizing it. Here's a link if anyone is interested.

http://www.classicscooterrally.com.au/