Modern Vespa

Nothing personal, but just in case someone on the Internets believes this... well, you're also kinda wrong there.

VNB/VBB, VNC/VBC (aka Super) kept 8" wheels way post-GS. P150S rocked the 8"ers too if you want to consider non-Italian market models.

(Of course most people here already know this... this is just between you me and the Google.)

You guys are seriously not making fair or educated comparisons. It is not just apples vs. oranges, it is apples vs very old neglected oranges, and those modified oranges with 10" wheel conversions, no floor rails, coke bottles in the headsets, and Dog knows what else done wrong and backwards.

And you are putting these up against solid original Ps and new PXs?

If you ride a properly restored or good original largeframe (8" or 10") with similar care and mileage to the P you are comparing it to, you will find it to be just as solid, if not more so.

I imagine you are referring to Bob Darnell.

Hahahaha.

There, I fixed it ...

So you put down this impression to wear? And if you were able to directly compare a 40 year old Sprint with a 40 year old P, with exactly the same miles and care etc, they would be very close in terms of the feeling of 'solidity'? If that's what you're saying, then it gives me hope for a solid-feeling ride.
Sure I'll try the coke bottle thing to see how it works, but what is the correct procedure to remedy this particular rattle? New headset, welding and reaming, sleeving? How do you guys tackle this when you are doing your restorations (which look fantastic btw)?

Also, do you have any thoughts on the rake angle question?

OK HP, I stand corrected for not expressing myself clearly. I didn't mean they all changed immediately after the GS. In fact, the transition took place about 1965/66. By 1968 all the Vespa models had 10" wheels, except the slimstyles with 9".

Anyway, my point was that 10" wheels did not come out witrh the Rally, but were around long before.

Mike

Untrue. The Super was made through 1977, and the P150S was made well into the late 1980s. Both are and were 8".

And smallframes, or "slimstyles" as you are referring to them only had 9" for the first year and a half or so of production. Other than a few odd-ball 50 Specials, all smallframes were 10" by '66.

We really are grateful to live and run our shop in Southern California. Here, it is possible to make these kind of fair comparisons, because we often uncover Sprints, Supers, Rallys and even VBBs with fewer than 1,000 miles on them. Once they are tuned up and lubed up, they feel as good or better than the P-series scoots around, including the new PXs. And that is the way we make our restorations feel, too.

As far as the rattle you are talking about, my first thought is to start with a better headset. I know that is not always an option for everyone, but it is really the best. There are, of course, headsets for certain models that are so rare that they are worth preserving, in which case the best option is to TIG and re-machine. But, to be honest, it is pretty rare to come across a headset in the U.S. or Europe that is really that worn out.

Usually, when we find bikes with major rattles and a less than "solid" feel, it is because someone took it apart and painted it and did not put it back together correctly. Sure, worn out parts and neglect does happen and you can never underestimate the power of proper periodic maintinence, but the majority of the really wrong feeling bikes are those that are missing things like spacers, lockwashers, top hats, etc. Those are the bikes that are always noisy and handle poorly and are always breaking cables, etc.

[quote="Bar Italia Classics"]it is pretty rare to come across a headset in the U.S. or Europe that is really that worn out. (Quote)

Speaking of...

Coincidentaly, I did have an NOS VNB headset up on scoot.net for sale. I was selling for a friend in Chicago before I moved.
If anyone is interested in a '60's NOS VNB headset let me know and I can contact my friend. He wants too dollar but didn't get any bites so he may be willing to come down to a reasonable figure. It looks like this! Never been mounted on a bike.

Thanks Bar for the segway!

I seriously doubt that shimming loose shift & throttle tubes in a worn headset with strips of lubricated polycarbonate is WORSE than letting them continue to rattle & buzz, if you don't happen to have a new headset like Vader or the facilities to heliarc & bore the old one.

Sometimes we amateurs just have to do the best we can with what we do have and we like to help one another out with what we've found works well. I do print out the online ass'y diagrams and try to make sure I get all the little bits in properly as well. You're right, it makes a difference.

But nobody would want to find pop bottle parts in a properly restored scooter, so I do understand your terror.


Do you know if ALL post wideframe, pre P, non smallie Vespas had the SAME rake angle? I was curious as it seems important & no obvious answer, although lot's of references to Rally frames being 'better', except in your post.

Thanks.

I remembered this guy from the UK - John McLaughlin - who runs a business repairing frames with his Vespa jig. So I wrote to him asking about the differences in rake, and this is his reply - http://vespaframejig.piczo.com/contactus?cr=6&linkvar=000044



So really, that only leaves wheelbase as the main difference.
I asked him if he thought that a P frame was any stiffer requiring additional force to straighten, but I somehow doubt that's something he'd be able to tell - he uses a porta-power setup to do the 'pushing'. Haven't heard back from him on that as yet.

Ok, this is what he said in reply - That would mean that... er...

If you push the front wheel away from the seat, surely the wheel base gets longer and less quick on turn in? Rake would be shallower and not steeper. Won't it?! :crosseyes:

speaking of frame, the nicest one its a vbb, vnb, vna but unfortunetly the spine wasnt too strong holding the fork this is where the womble come as the wheelbase is short so its handle corner nicely, as the sprint veloce which is my fav have the better power but its frame kinna longer although stiffer but the lower ground cleareance prevent it to do more extreme movement in a corner compare to a p series, as for the p series it have a stiffer frame maybe but the fork is horrible high and too much movement in the corner and u dont have to worry about the ground clearence as u will be on the side road before u ever scratch ur floorboard when u lean in corner its too tall and to soft even for a 167cm and 49kg dude like me.. last impression, i never were meant to ride a p series frame

have a nice day and cheer

ginch ...i totally know what your talking about....i built my p 150x 1979 from the ground up bare metal and all that and i built my 74 super ground up ,same way.....but man oh man .there is a huge difference in riding feel!....i dont know what it is but the p feels like a motorcycle and the super feels like a washing machine....one thing i feel is different ,is the handlebars are higher on the p...the super i have my hands down lower....but the front shock on a p is way superior to the shock on my super ....the p is coil over and the super has a pathetic puller type shock.....any how i love both my bikes ...and quite honestly i am a revival mod and the p is the bike of choice in that regard....its strong and substantial.and its THE classic vespa...the p is the king ! ...so much time has passed that the p is truly ,THE vintage vespa now! the p is truly evolved...it has both legend status, and cult status....its design is magnificent!...in every way!

P's are great. But don't fool yourself. What did you think of Volvos when you were in your late teens and early 20's? Now I look at a Volvo and have impure thoughts. I'm sure the same is true of the P. We just love that boxy usefulness.

When I first looked at buying my first vespa, the shop mechanic(this tall British guy) showed
me 8-10 used and running (not restored) scooters that they had for sale.
I told him I didn't want to buy one to just look at, I wanted to
be able to ride it regularly. He showed me the P series ones, and said
these are the ones to buy. I asked him what about these older ones that
look curvier, I really like the way they look. He said those are more expensive,
not as fast, and less reliable. I didn't buy a scooter from that shop, I had gone
in there to buy a vintage scooter, and he was showing me scooters
from the 1980's.

Well years later, I've still never owned a P series, and the scooters I've owned
have all been as reliable as my friends P series scoots. I've grown to appreciate the
look of the P series, and its power. But, I'm still attracted to the
smooth lines of the pre P.

Obviously style is subjective, buy and ride what you like.
Thats what it's all about. I like each of the scooters I've owned,
and the ones I still own for different reasons, not all have
to do with how fast, or how big their wheels are.

Oh yea, then I bought a Lambretta, and that also changed
my opinions(the ride is very different than the vespa).

Rob

Oh come on - I'm not that daft.
I know lots of classics came with 10" as standard.
I was referring to the power of the Rally 200 along with the 10" wheels.
The op mentioned 8" wheels . . .

And i never said they came with the introduction of the Rally . . . i've been into Vespa for nearly 30 years . . . i'm not exactly clueless . . . and i dont make a habit of telling people "how wrong they are" . . . because when you do that, you set yourself up for a fall . . . even when you think you made yourself clear . . . and find that you didn't.
And like someone said above, not all vespas had 10" wheels after 1968, like you wrongly said above.
See what i did there . . ?

Thats a good statement - i like it.
When i finished my recent Rally resto, i found it to be like a brand new Vespa.
Solid, tight (in the sense of new'y tight) and just a peach to drive.
No rattles . . .

not sure about mine

Sorry Nebulae, but I took that to mean "different beast to all the other classics because it had 10 inch wheels and power to match". But you're still ignoring that other classic, the SS180.

Anyway, I was amazed to learn that a P-series had been produced with 8"wheels. Why?? Guess we all live and learn.

Mike

Edit: But I agree that the Rally200 was a pinnacle. I converted my Rally180 to a Rally200 - cylinder, exhaust, carb, ignition - and it was the best runing two-stroke I've ever had. My P and PX were disappointng in comparison.