Modern Vespa

Since I've only driven my Vespa LX150 and never a motorcycle, was wondering if one would be easier to drive in the rain? I've driven mine a number of times in rainy weather and never had a problem. But today it was on and off light rain and misting, would dry up and start all over again. Coming home I passed a co-worker who had slid out on his large bike and had hit the pavement.

So was wondering if the differences of automatic transmission, not so much power, small wheels would give more control or traction that a larger and heavier bike with more power in acceleration. Of course you would have to factor in things like speed and cornering and perhaps other things I am not even aware of.

So is there an advantage in one or the other?

I've ridden both in the rain.

I'd say a rider's habits and skills are what makes the most difference. Not the ride.

On the other hand, all things being equal, I'd probably rather end up under my scooter than my motorcycle if I lost it.

Can't imagine there's much difference...tires and riding ability would seem to loom large. But I do know this: today in Southern California was a really terrible day to ride because it was the first day of the rainy season after literally months with barely any precipitation at all. You could see the oil and whatever rising on the road in a white foamy mess and believe me, that built up crap is slippery and dangerous and is probably what got your co-worker off his bike.

I have heard that motorcycle tires maintain 80% of their traction in the rain. Of course this does not take into account other factors such as oil on the road, etc. I agree with Menhir, riding skills (as well as riding experience) make the difference...

First you ride a scooter/motorcycle not drive it. Of course bikes have bigger tire contact patch.

Vespa in US has no ABS. Right? ABS equipped bike probably safer.

Tire choice/compound big factor----experience/skill in there two.

I never had problem with my 2 stroke Vespas in rain or snow. Big heavy bikes make you think.

Mixing it up in heavy/fast traffic---bike maybe my choice----but after 57 yrs of riding everyday, neither is good choice in today's traffic....sometimes.

mp3

but yeah I think it is actually about the tire more than the bike.

One big difference is the amount of power that a motorcycle can have vs the scooter. I can play with the throttle at will in almost any Florida condition and not worry about losing traction with the rear wheel. All sport bikes and many others, with up to nearly 200 hp would certainly be a handful when using the throttle.

Newer bikes have traction control, ABS and various modes for conditions that alleviate much of this, but a powerful older bike could be very scary in low traction conditions.

Ya' know, one of the neat things about language is that it slowly changes. Words, terms, and meanings change over time. For example, words once thought vulgar, such as "ain't", are now considered mainstream in usage.
My wife hates that the term "snuck" is now accepted, when the 'proper' word is "sneaked", only snuck IS considered proper now (and I delight in using it in her presence). We speak English, but many of our words bear little resemblance to the English of, say, 300 years ago.
Many people and publications now accept that operators "drive" a PTW. Even district attorneys have been known to use this term in courts of law.
Lighten up, Francis!

I imagine that the MP3 has a bit more traction in the rain simply due to the third wheel. I think that more rubber on the road could mean more traction in the rain. Of course, if all three tires start to hydroplane, well then there you go!

Rain in LV creates the most treacherous riding, i've experienced, second only to ice. Months of dust and oil and followed by light rain seemed to create a synthetic ice of sorts. If you're new to it use extra caution.

I think tires play a bigger part than what people think. I'm with OZ on this one. Of course riding skills are a big factor but having good tires really does help. Never got interested in MC'S so i can't answer that question.

Yes and no. An MP3 has better traction at the front. That back tire, however, will slide out on a turn just as easily as a two wheel bike. A slick spot, some loose gravel, panic braking - down you go.

I saw this post and dove right into the discussion. Or is it dived?

You ride a horse.

You drive the horses that pull a wagon or carriage.

If this was good enough for my great-grandfather, it's good enough for me.



Also - in 1962 my English teacher dinged me for using "snuck" instead of "sneaked" in a story. Well, to her, too.

Uh oh, my spell checker won't recognize "snuck" as a word. Now what?

I think there are too many factors to make a definitive statement either way. I could see certain scooters or motorcycles ridden by a skilled rider offering more traction than certain other scooters and motorcycles but I'm not sure if a general statement can be made or is at all useful.

I do believe that scooters are easier to ride in the rain, particularly 150-250 cc ones. There way are more options for bad moves on a Ducati Panigale vs a Vespa LX 150, or even a BV500 vs. a LX 150. When I had two scooters, I used to take the smaller one when the road was wet. It was just easier to manage and more forgiving given my particular lower skill level.

Reminds me of the evolving words to describe the past tense of having sent out something by Twitter. I twitted.... twatted...

Now what? Try another spell checker, and see Merriam-Webster. Your teacher was correct back in1962 but would not be so in 2012.
You can also check with the copy editor of just about any major newspaper.
As for great-grandfathers, I'm not about to go up against them!
Also, I believe it's "I has done dived right in," but please don't rat me out to my sentence-diagramming school teacher wife.

Which reminds me Douglas Adam's essay of the grammatical conundrums arising from time travel...

"One of the major problems encountered in time travel is not that of becoming your own father or mother. There is no problem in becoming your own father or mother that a broad-minded and well-adjusted family can't cope with. There is no problem with changing the course of history-the course of history does not change because it all fits together like a jigsaw. All the important changes have happened before the things they were supposed to change and it all sorts itself out in the end.

The major problem is simply one of grammar, and the main work to consult in this matter is Dr. Dan Streetmentioner's Time Traveler's Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations. It will tell you, for instance, how to describe something that was about to happen to you in the past before you avoided it by time-jumping forward two days in order to avoid it. The event will be described differently according to whether you are talking about it from the standpoint of your own natural time, from a time in the further future, or a time in the further past and is further complicated by the possibility of conducting conversations while you are actually traveling from one time to another with the intention of becoming your own mother or father.

Most readers get as far as the Future Semi-conditionally Modified Sub-inverted Plagal Past Subjunctive Intentional before giving up; and in fact in later additions of the book all pages beyond this point have been left blank to save on printing costs.

The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy skips lightly over this tangle of academic abstraction, pausing only to note that the term "Future Perfect" has been abandoned since it was discovered not to be."

...which I read, or will have read, sometime back several years ahead.
I'm not really sure.


Weren't we talking about rain or something?

^^^ GREAT post, Menhir!!

[quote="john grinsel"]First you ride a scooter/motorcycle not drive it.
i would AGREE, after after 53 years of riding a motor bike or scooter ,
you ride them ,,

for instance you sit in a car ,but you sit on a bike ,
simples,

never mind the language change,

Back on the OP's original question: As others have said, not easy to answer, for many reasons, touched on above.

Just because you may have more or larger contact patches, does not mean the traction is better. Total contact area of the patch spreads the supported bike weight over a larger area, reducing the 'force per area' or pressure of the tire onto the road surface.

This reduced force per area is why under-inflated tires reduce grip (same bike weight divided by larger patch area). So a third tire, like VegasGeorge mentioned with MP3 scoots increases risk of hydroplaning on water or even just road oil.

Over-inflated tires can also reduce grip, due to the the (same bike weight divided by very small patch area) is more prone to gravel, dirt, dust, leaves, and 'mottled' road surfaces (gravely asphalt), because the probability that rubber would make a good contact with the road goes down.

So tire design and bike design must be in concert. The weight balance of the bike must be matched with its dynamics (force shifting during acceleration or deceleration) and statics (constant speed riding).

A rider should "be the tires" sometimes, by imagining what work the tires are having to do. Better to adjust cornering speed, braking distance, etc. by road surface conditions, weather, etc. by imagining what work the tires are having to do.

Motorcycle with ABS or rain mode.

People keep saying ABS is safer to ride, well it's only safer when you are braking
Tires make the most difference in 80%-90% of daily riding.

On the scooter i lose traction on the front wheel when applying braking. On the motorcyle I lose rear wheel traction when stopping on wet road when shifting down and breaking both cycles need different skills for each stopping and weather.

I felt more comfortable on the GT in the rain (did it a lot) than I do on the bike but I had 6 years of experience on the scoot and this was my first time on the MC.

I got the 'feeling' that the thinner tires on the scooter 'cut through the water' better than the wider tires on the MC do but I don't think that really makes sense when I think about the science of it. The vast increase in weight, I think, does make a difference in how I ride the MC in the wet.

I had my first hydroplane today, luckily at low speed and on a bike that is already cosmetically beat up (2004 Yamaha Vino 125). I decided not to ride my Vespa to work today as my headlight has gone out and I am so glad I made that choice. I was braking for a red light and my rear tire hit a puddle then the bike slid out from under me and continued for a few feet, I landed on my side and suffered no injury. My bike was still running so I raised it and rode on after assuring drivers that I was alright. I have some ammo can saddle bags mounted on my Vino that acted like crash bars. When I got home I inspected for damage and noticed I had absolutely no tread on my rear tire (4000 miles on a Michelin S83). I was already planning on buying 4 Michelin's for my Vino and my PX150 this week, after this incident, I am ordering them today. I usually replace a rear tire right at 3000 miles just at the tread is fading. I am never making this mistake again.

[quote="sharpcolorado"]Back on the OP's original question: As others have said, not easy to answer, for many reasons, touched on above.
. . .
This reduced force per area is why under-inflated tires reduce grip (same bike weight divided by larger patch area). So a third tire, like [url=https://modernvespa.com/members/vegasgeorge]VegasGeorge[/url] mentioned with MP3 scoots increases risk of hydroplaning on water or even just road oil.

. . . [/quote]

In fact it is tire pressure that has the most impact on hydroplaning.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=3

A tire is designed by the manufacturer to address issues with traction, longevity, speed, cost, etc. and it is a constantly refined balancing act. The simple fact is that this constant refinement (especially as new materials come out) has given ALL tires pretty much the same safety factor. That is unless you want to get exotic and expensive, and even high cost is no guarantee of better performance.

After the number of wheels, it is tire pressure is the biggest uncertainty and has the most effect on hydroplaning. Regardless of tire size, vehicle size/weight, tread design, vehicle weight and a host of other factors. Not that they don't have an effect.

See also:<warning: math content>
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_can_you_determine_at_what_speed_a_car_will_hydroplane

Small change in pressure results in big changes in hydroplaning speed. Check your tires! 8)

[quote="Ace Rimmer"]I had my first hydroplane today, luckily at low speed and on a bike that is already cosmetically beat up (2004 Yamaha Vino 125). I decided not to ride my Vespa to work today as my headlight has gone out and I am so glad I made that choice. I was braking for a red light and my rear tire hit a puddle then the bike slid out from under me and continued for a few feet, I landed on my side and suffered no injury. My bike was still running so I raised it and rode on after assuring drivers that I was alright. I have some ammo can saddle bags mounted on my Vino that acted like crash bars. When I got home I inspected for damage and noticed I had absolutely no tread on my rear tire (4000 miles on a Michelin S83). I was already planning on buying 4 Michelin's for my Vino and my PX150 this week, after this incident, I am ordering them today. I usually replace a rear tire right at 3000 miles just at the tread is fading. I am never making this mistake again.[/quote]

Probably not hydroplaning but simple loss of traction.

Biggest difference between bikes and scoots in the rain is the weight balance is much more pronounced. Scoots have a low CofG that makes a big difference to maintaining balance in slippery conditions, but really bike/scooter/whatever in any slippery conditions I rekn it's experience that plays the biggest part.
Bikes in the rain are much more stable at higher speeds though, probably due (guessing?) to the greater rotational gyroscopic stability of much taller/heavier wheels/tyres.

And of course thanks to the US control of the internet, US English has overtaken the use of the Queen's English (especially in the spelling department) and as if that were not enough, I always used to wonder why there were so many more American billionaires than anywhere else until I realised that the English billion (a million million) is a little bit bigger than the US million (only a thousand million).

I also hate the fact that even this small piece of text has highlighted the S in realised as though I am supposed to know it should be spelt with a Z!

This not a dig at Americans by the way. I have relatives that live there who are pretty cool people and own a lot of firearms so I love america