Modern Vespa

Why would we need a 76 hp scooter? Because we can...
http://www.apriliasrv850.com/en/index.htm

It looks like it has a pretty big footprint. Does anyone know if they'll keep producing the Mana as well? Cause I was planning on that for my next bike.

Whoever gets one of these next maxi-scoots first has to promise to ride it around in a race tuck like the guy on the website.

It's not a scooter.
No step through frame.
Motor Not mounted to swing arm.

It's a motorcycle with an automatic trans.

Its a scooter in the sense of the word that its a subset of "motorcycles" per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scooter_(motorcycle) and the people who built them, who also know what a motorcycle is. And in the same sense that BMW's new scooter is, the Suzuki Burgman is, etc. despite a high "stepthrough" and the suspension.

It may not fit your definition of scooter, but then neither does your choice of "scooter" fit everyone elses.

How is the MP3 not a scooter?
Step through frame.
Motor Mounted to swing arm.
Those are the two classic scooter definitions.
Heck, it's the same as a BV500, except it has two front wheels.

Please show me anywhere that Aprila calls the Mana a "Scooter".

BMW does call theirs scooters.

The MP3 is a scooter.

The Yamaha TMax is a scooter - but it has the engine mounted on the frame.

The Aprilia SRV850 (which Aprilia (Piaggio) calls a scooter) has a step-through body.

The Mana does NOT have a step through body. That is a big differentiator. And whilst it has an automatic transmission, it is NOT a CVT like most modern scooters.

The Aprilia SRV850 is every bit a scooter, just like the new BMWs (which a high stepthrough) and Honda Silverwing/Suzuki Burgman/Yamaha TMax. To bad it will never come to the US, though - I'd seriously consider getting one!

Under U.S. federal regulations a scooter is a motor cycle with a particular configuration. The Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration in its regulations, specifically Reg. 571.123, defines a scooter as: "Scooter means a motorcycle that: (1) Has a platform for the operator's feet or has integrated footrests, and (2) Has a step-through architecture, meaning that the part of the vehicle forward of the operator's seat and between the legs of an operator seated in the riding position, is lower in height than the operator's seat."

Under this definition the Aprilia is indeed (IMHO) a scooter.

What a scooter indeed.

Nobody said the Mp3 wasn't a scooter, if your re-read what I posted I said that not everyone else considers the Mp3 to be one. That doesnt make it so though.

To each his own.

Thats why there's choices. To come out and declare the Aprilia 850 isn't a scooter...thats your opinion which youre welcome to, but by the same token others can declare the Mp3 isn't one as well. Thats their opinion.

Believe it or ot, that "2 front wheels" thing? Doesn't fit everyone's notion of a scooter, or motorcycle....

Like here in California. The DMV considers it a motorcycle, but there isn't a motorcycle license that qualifies for it. So it's kind of "in limbo", a weird, floating thing that is a motorcycle but isn't...

Oh lord, lets move this to the bar.......

you missed this too, didn't you?

The lack of an integral motor/swing arm definitely pushes it farther from the core scooter ideal. So do the large wheels. It might still be a scooter, but it's drifting perilously far from the center, just like the SilverWing.

A lot of these are scooters only because they're not motorcycles.

I'll even throw down a new acronym: SINO.

Heh.

To paraphrase U.S. Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart's definition of pornography, it's not clear exaclty what a scooter is, but I know one when I see one, and that's not one.

From whose scooter ideal is it being pushed?

While neither you or Web-tech Wayne may not think they are the pentultimate scooter for possessing larger wheels and/or a non integral motor/swing arm, that doesnt change the fact that they are. These things are evolutionary, as are the standards they are judged by.

Model T, and Tesla Roadster. Still both automobiles.

Well, mine! Obviously.

But not just mine, either. A lot of the larger scooters are moving farther away from what most people think of as a scooter. They may still be scooters, but are they defined by what they are, or what they are not? Are they merely scooters because we lack any other category to assign them to?

This is a serious question. What differentiates this new Aprilia from a motorcycle? A casual inspection reveals that it has far more in common with motorcycles than with scooters. So why make such a fuss when people compare them, quite predictably, to motorcycles? Whose feelings are we hurting by calling a spade a spade? It doesn't diminish the bike in any meaningful way, and it certainly doesn't hurt the bike's feelings.

So seriously, why the labored effort to try to name it something that it barely resembles, when there's a much better label for it: motorcycle. What's the point?

Seems from the legal definition above, they are defined by what they are: lower area in front of the seat, and flat places for your feet.

And it makes sense - one of the biggest differences in controlling/riding a scooter versus a motorcycle is the lack of knee-support. You can't press with your knee into the body of the bike - there's nothing there to press against. It changes the way you ride and brace yourself.

I mean, for many a scooter has to have an automatic transmission - twist and go. Does that mean the SRV850 is a scooter, but those older Vespas with clutches and shifters are not?

That's hardly a universal legal definition, nor one that has any bearing on anything. AFAIK, all Vespas imported into the US have a metal VIN tag on the bike that states that it is a motorcycle. Certainly in California, all scooters are registered as motorcycles. Clearly, the scooter community isn't deferring to some random legal definition, since nobody in the community would refer to their LX as a motorcycle. That's easily the least relevant difference I've ever heard anyone suggest. I think a lot of vintage riders would strenuously disagree with that statement. And so would I. And then there are the actual automatic motorcycles, which are clearly not scooters just because they have automatic gearing.

So basically - some folks are getting their panties in a bind because their "rule" of what a scooter is, is not universally respected and followed - even by the scooter manufacturer for whom this website is ostensibly named!

My MP3 has 3 wheels. Clearly not a scooter - right?

If Aprilia/Piaggio/Vespa calls it a scooter, I think they know a little better than us about WHAT a scooter is...

Not necessarily.

Anheuser-Busch calls the stuff they make "beer," and I know a lot of knowledgeable folk who would vehemently disagree.

As Gbaby said, scooter is mostly in the eye of the beholder. All maxi-scooters are somewhat pushing the idea of what constitutes a scooter IMO. Whether Piaggio calls their 850 a scooter and Honda does not call their 700 with DSG a scooter, really doesn't make me look at the question any differently. All twin cylinder bikes mount the engine forward of the swing arm, that is an engineering fact (Silverwing, 650 Burgman, T-max, Aprilia 850, Honda Juno, whatever). Scooter isn't a legal definition anyway. Why don't we just agree each of us has our own idea of what constitutes a scooter and what does not. I suspect before too long, virtually all PTWs will have something other than cut gears and a manual friction clutch.

Well, after rereading, I was thinking they were talking about the Mana. So any comments I made don't apply.

My favorite topic.

scooter?

No step through frame


Engine is not the swing arm

Usually, when someone accuses others of getting their panties in a bind, it's because they disagree but have nothing meaningful to add to the conversation. Many would say no, the MP3 isn't a scooter. I think I'd be among those. That's pretty poor logic, considering they put the "motorcycle" name on the VIN plate.

Actually, in Maryland, it is, and it is not what most of us would expect:

"Motor Scooter Definition

A motor scooter is a type of non-pedaled vehicle that meets the following standards:

1. Has two wheels, of which one is 10 inches or more in diameter
2. Has a seat for the operator
3. Has a step-through chassis
4. Is equipped with an automatic transmission.
5. Has a motor with a rating of 2.7 brake horsepower or less, and if the motor is an internal combustion engine,with a capacity of 50 cubic centimeters piston displacement or less.

Generally, motor scooters can achieve a speed of up to 40 MPH, but this varies by the manufacturer and model that you have. However, a motor scooter is not allowed to exceed the speed of 30 MPH on public roadways."

Beyond that minor point, I agree with you.

Only because you enjoy adding to the confusion. I think your attempts to accommodate a few random oddscoots within Cannonball have only made things worse.

But hey, if you can do it, so can I.

As the Petty Tyrant, I hereby decree that, for the purposes of clear communication within this forum, the term "scooter" shall mean a vehicle with no more than two wheels, no more than one cylinder, no more than 300ccs, and unit construction of the engine/swingarm.

Everything else is a motorcycle. No exceptions.

Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not! ...................
My Dad's bigger than your Dad.
Well my Dad knows Jess from Modern Vespa so your Dad can fuck off.

I'll take your definition over the California DMV



http://www.dmv.ca.gov/vr/scooters.htm

Well "Silver", that was certainly good for a laugh. Only Maryland has managed to eliminate most of the early vintage Vespas from the scooter category (8" wheels need not apply) . I live in Oregon where PTW's are either motorcycles or mopeds. Unlike California, even MP3s are legally motorcycles here. Scooters are only a term of art in this part of the world .

Wait, I don't ride a scooter now then ? Damn it.

Really, for me personally it comes down to unit construction of the engine/swingarm. I don't care about most of the other factors. I realize there are some historical oddscoots (and a Lambretta or two) that fail this simple test, but I'm really not worked up about trying to accommodate those minor exceptions in some mythically perfect definition of what is and isn't a scooter. For me, if the bike doesn't have unit construction of the engine/swingarm, it's not a scooter.

I actually prefer there to be no legal definition, it's more a mater of style to me. I really like all the variation in design that took place in the '50s.

Some of the drivetrain setups on these bikes are really cool but the style does nothing for me. Call it whatever you want.

I like this argument... I loved my TMAX and the recent posting about the modified reminded me. I really don't like the riding postion of motorcycles (or at least the couple that I have owned and ridden). What makes it a scooter for me is the ability to move around into different riding postions and the lower centre of gravity.

I really don't like the SRV/Gilera GP. It is too big and unwieldy. To me it feels very different from the Beemer/TMAX twins. The drivetrain isn't particularly well set up either. Likewise on the Mana. Too vibey and shuddery, criticism you can't level at the BMW/Yamaha.

Is my new three wheeled, manually shifted vehicle not a scooter?

No. It's a hack. But when you remove the sidecar, the other half reverts to being a scooter.

From the above-linked website:

But as soon as the sidecar wheel is no longer on the ground it instantly becomes a motorcycle again. Lots of fun mastering that transition.

Point taken. I think the OPs reason for calling it a scooter was that it was an auto. Most scooters have a manual transmission. CVTs are a relativly new thing to the scooter world. INHO a step through frame is the only true definition of a scooter. Swing arm mounted motor less so.

Kind of. At the point where the wheel is off the ground, handling isn't exactly like a motorcycle, unless your motorcycle has a giant weight mounted on the right-hand side of the bike.

OK, CVTs were invented some time ago. I still say that most scooters have a manual, although autos are catching up fast. Three wheel scooters are not unheard of. Remember tha Honda Gyro? Two wheels in the back with the motor between that stayed level with the road while the body and rider tilted into corners. I consider MP3s to be scooters and Can Ams not, no step through.

The Salsbury patent application is deliberately misleading, Patrick. Just because it was invented doesn't mean it was in widespread use.