Modern Vespa

Layman's language is it seals off the intake so the transfer can happen.

looks like my other post didn't come thru...

I can pop that brass bushing out, turn a new one and clean-up the case around it. That bushing might be standard available from McMaster anyway. If not, I'll turn you a new one if you can get it out. Just measure the OD of the bushing with a micrometer since it is most likely a force fit, the OD of the shaft, not the worn hole, and length and I'll send you a bronze one for postage, like $1.5.

It looks like the case was welded in that blackened area. I would reflow that, either TIG or most likely torch and then surface it on the mill.

I might be able to build-up that worn area and then mill a new surface as well. If you get to the point of throwing it away and want me to take a shot, just ship them to me, you have nothing to lose at that point.

i can also get that shim out, fill the divots, machine them back to flat. I would also bore the bearing surface back to spec. I don't know if they are punch-pinned normally. Generally, with loose bearings like that you make a shim or punch the inner area of the case as the divot will build it up a little.

i said brass, meant bronze. I have some bronze in the shop and can make you a bushing in ten minutes but I would work on that JB weld area or where it is black and brown. It could be just burned on carbon but I would blast that area to see what is going on there.

and I don't see why you need a new head. Just clean that one, lap the head and cylinder (both ends) and see if it seals. With new rings and lapping your compression would probably be fine.

When you lap it, make sure you don't drag it in parallel strokes but spin it or use a figure 8 pattern.

That is very cool, Jerry. You got a thumbs up from me for your willingness to help another scooterist!

Barry Gwin at San Francisco Scooter Center has the original Piaggio factory tool for replacing those brass seats. He even has the replacement brass. He told me he has never used it because it has always been cheaper to simply purchase replacement cases.

Lynn, you are learning the hard way, but you are slowly learning. Hang in there, you will love scooters all the more if you survive the misery & expense of all this. I bet a dollar that your next one will be a lot different!

As I've said from day one, enjoy this one for what it is. & yeah snag a cheap 125 3 speed. ASK for one or similar on scootnet?

Then you could put your gearstack and a 150 top end on there & you're back where you are now cheap, but healthy.

Nice of Jerry to offer fixing yours, but smells a little like wheelspinning, VN style. No real future with fatigued cast aluminum IMO. & you mentioned .050 clearance, where & what the HELL is that, not inches I hope.

I want this to work for you, but please try to avoid pushing square pegs into round holes. Ok, they sometimes eventually go if you push HARD enuff...

Wow I'm really impressed with all the helpful comments and really feel the need to address all that took the time out of there busy lives to offer some help. Trust me when I say I read over all comments several times and decided I should first think about everything that was offered before making this post.
Also please don't take my comments or questions as a negative or unresponsive to the advice given as it is just my way of learning.
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matty5 wrote:

Read the induction section.

http://vespamaintenance.com/engine/primer/index.html

>>>Matty I haven't been able to open that site even once.

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GickSpeed wrote:

Lynnb wrote:

TravisNJ wrote:

If this is how the engine looks, imagine what is lurking under the paint?

Well near as I can tell the body is solid and its going to be a garage guard most of the time. really I just want to know what my options are here.

Get the entire chassis media blasted. That will give you the best information.
You must have mad skills and deep pockets. Restoring an American market GS150 would be cheaper and quicker than getting that machine right.

>>>Gickspeed that is some really good advice, I took a run by the autobody shop after work and explained what I wanted to do which is basicly get the chassis itself sandblasted to reveal any other hidden surprises, he said drop by anytime I was ready so as soon as I figure out how to get the front end off I will move forward with getting it ready for blasting. For about $100 it is a very good investment. He had said he doesn't sand blast but he understood my dillema.

Gickspeed I defiantely don't have deep pockets but truth be told I really don't have the heart to tell my wife who is very very excited to ride the vespa( she is of Italian descent) that I got taken on the buy, I have to do what ever I can to bring some sort of life to this old scooter.
As for skills I have been wrenching on non scooters for many many moond and I;m not afraid to dive in.
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Len Smith wrote:

Lynn,

Take Gickspeed's advice and do first things first. Set the motor aside until you blast or strip the frame to make sure the frame is even worth saving. The reason he suggests this is that many bikes have been cobbled together from different frames and slathered with Bondo and paint to look great to the novice's eye. Some of them are actually dangerous.

Don't buy anything else until you know the frame is sound...then ask again for where to go with the motor.

Honestly....you will be able to buy a running and titled P series for less than you will spend to make that scooter right.
Best of luck,

Len

>>>Thanks Len, Gickspeed is right on the money with his suggestion and will follow it, I would in fact like to carry on a converstion on the topic of either replacing the casings or entire motor and what will fit in this chassie( depending if chassis is ok ) , just for friendly conversation of course. Len as already mentioned above I really don't want to give up on this old girl as I
really don't want to let my wife down.Also Len as you mention I could eaisily buy a P series for what I could end up putting in this scotter, well really on the contrary at least in my case, reason being where I live is very far from such deals and living in Canada deals they may come available are a very long drive away and shipping in Canada is generally minimum $500, you guys are fortunate in the states with the amount of deals available, once again shipping to canada is expensive also meaning buying online is the only option and then getting it shipped and imported.
Another thing Len is for what I paid for this ( which I know now was way way too much) I just couldn't with a clear conscience sell this to anyone else in the condition it is in meaning I have to do what I can for it and basicly keep it as I could never get my money out of it which I seem to be very good at.

Question: If the frame is as you say cobbled together is the issue with bad welding or the fact that several frame pieces were used?

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Cncjerry wrote:

one thing is for certain. Lynnb has very thick skin. With all the shit everyone is giving him he hasn't flamed-out at all.
Yes, he should have checked with the experts before
purchasing but he is asking for simple advice in a reasonable way and getting nothing but "trash it" in return.
The engine looks pretty bad. I don't know if all that can be built back up and
machined clean or not. Whoever pinned that bearing took the easy way for sure and there is a lot of damage where something was dragging. Also it looks like it was welded once already.

If you get to the point where something needs to be machined, I'll do it for the cost of shipping. That's the best I can do.

Jerry

>>>Jerry you really hit a soft spot in me with your offering to help in the welding and I really really appreciate the offer. I have done the same for others sending them parts they needed that I had sitting on my shelf. I belong to a Harley forum that I will always be willing to help others in, and its not the type of bike but the joy we all share and the comradery that goes with it.
Jerry really when I bought the vespa I never really imagined there was such a dark side to them and so never really researched as I didn't think there was such a big deal.I just wanted something old that I could fiddle with and have some fun on.
Jerry I tend to be a very patient and understanding person which is probably why I've been happily married for 28yrs and I'm of a very low maintenace type of person. I also understand how people can become frustrated with a newbie like myself and hope that some day I too will be able to help other people that find themselves in the same rocky boat.

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Len Smith wrote:

Jerry,

He is hanging in there, to his credit. But I am not saying trash it...just saying find out what you have first so you can build back on a reliable base. And that every rebuild I have done cost more than I estimated, so be prepared.

>>>Yes Len, before I even bought the bike I had it in my mind that I would be spending alot of money but my frame of mind was to make the engine new and replace anything that was not in good condition as far as far as all operations of the scooter went.I looked at the bike online and first thoughts were, seeats have good upholstery , tires are all new and paint of course was an eye catcher but I had already made up my mind to give it a nice shiney paint job. I also bought as old a bike as I could because I am very mechanically inclined and old stuff is always the best in my mind as they just have a certain amount of charisma, so trust me when I say I don't buy things to resell them.

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[b]

Magg wrote:

I said earlier I thought the body itself didn't look too bad - You can't be sure until you've sandblasted it, it doesn't seem too bad..
But this motor is absolutely shot.
It's held together with something that looks like JB weld. That's just not good enough.
Remember, that motor is also the scooters rear swingarm. You don't want it to come off, break in two, loose a bearing etc while your riding.
Just get a newer motor of some sort. I'm sure someone would even *give* you an old working 3 speed motor if they had one. I know I would have, but I've already sent mine away.. You could buy a decent one for very little money.

When the gears in the gearbox don't line up properly because of too much slop in the bearings (or like you've take a picture of - loose brass bushing) things can jam up. If it jams up, and it turns out you have more of that
motor beeing held together with punches and JB-weld it'll crack. That's is going to be your rear swingarm cracking up, falling off while you continue down the road with only the front wheel.

Mind you, that might come off too, unless you're sure the fork is in good working condition.

[/b]

>>> Magg first off, absolutely it is going for sandblasting first of the week once I figure out how to get front end off. One very important thing you mention is the motor is actually the swing arm and that really really opened my eyes to just how serious any sort of cheap fix in the engine can be. Thanks for that.I got out the die grinder after work today as I was very curious as to what was under the goopy looking stuff which I'm pretty sure is epoxy just by the smell it made when I was grinding it off, I will post pics at the end of my replies.
Magg the main problem I had with this scooter, before learning what I've learn so far, is the bike wouldn't go into any gears when the clutch was pulled, the bike would just stall and what I did find with the clutch was the plates were glazed but also there was no nut like was suppose to be on the end of the shaft ( the type that needed the special tool to remove it ), the nut was just plain and was wandering if this had anything to do with the clutch not engaging problem.
Magg it would be great if someone could lead me to a motor or replacement cases free would be great but of course I'm realistic and would only be happy enough being led to something thats not another rip off.
Matt I will be giving the front end when I get it off a very close look see.

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SFvsr wrote:

No way that motor is salvageable. You can find a good set of cases pretty easily, so I wouldn't get down in the dumps over it.

>>>Thanks SFvsr, I appreciate your honesty. If you know of a good connection for cases for me I would really appreciate the lead, as I'm ready to move forward in this direction.

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[/b]

>>>Thanks that is a very simply and sufficient explanation as I take it the width of it must match up with the crank width to make a good seal to a certain degree.

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Cncjerry wrote:

looks like my other post didn't come thru...

I can pop that brass bushing out, turn a new one and clean-up the case around it. That bushing might be standard available from McMaster anyway. If not, I'll turn you a new one if you can get it out. Just measure the OD of the bushing with a micrometer since it is most likely a force fit, the OD of the shaft, not the worn hole, and length and I'll send you a bronze one for postage, like $1.5.

It looks like the case was welded in that blackened area. I would reflow that, either TIG or most likely torch and then surface it on the mill.
I might be able to build-up that worn area and then mill a new surface as
well. If you get to the point of throwing it away and want me to take a shot, just ship them to me, you have nothing to lose at that point.

i can also get that shim out, fill the divots, machine them back to flat. I would also bore the bearing surface back to spec. I don't know if they are
punch-pinned normally. Generally, with loose bearings like that you make a shim or punch the inner area of the case as the divot will build it up a little.

>>>Thanks Jerry, although I haven't looked very hard for the bushing, I was going to call scootermercado and talk to david about holding off on all my orders and asking if that bushing is available although I did get the die grinder out and wnet at the what appears to be epoxy at the seal area and there's also epoxy behing the brass bushing on the seal case side which I will post pics at the end, I wasn;t impressed with all that I found. There's also epoxy on the inside of the case from where the rear brake ( I think ) threaded hole is or was as it is broken off and someone drill through the case to install a bracket for the rear brake cable.
The bushing acually appears to be stuck in the cavity and just has movement sideways which explains the wear mark on the side of the case in that area.
Jerry I really honestly appreciate your generosity for fixing the cases, shipping for parts across the US is quite resonable and I may just take you up on your offer, you really sound like a guy that knows his way around the welder and lathe. Thanks


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Cncjerry wrote:

i said brass, meant bronze. I have some bronze in the shop and can make you a bushing in ten minutes but I would work on that JB weld area or where it is black and brown. It could be just burned on carbon but I would blast that area to see what is going on there.

>>> Yes Jerry I cleaned it up with the die grinder and it appears to have been used to fill a hole, could have been a brake as well.

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Cncjerry wrote:

and I don't see why you need a new head. Just clean that one, lap the head and cylinder (both ends) and see if it seals. With new rings and lapping your compression would probably be fine.
When you lap it, make sure you don't drag it in parallel strokes but spin it or
use a figure 8 pattern.

>>> Thanks Jerry for the tip. As for the head I was prepared to buy a overhaul kit which included crank and cylinder amounge other things and thought it might be good practice to replace the head as well as it was leaking, but lapping is a good option.

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Len Smith wrote:

That is very cool, Jerry. You got a thumbs up from me for your willingness to help another scooterist!

>>> Yes Len I totally agree, thumbs up from me as well, we need more in this world like Jerry.

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SFvsr wrote:

Cncjerry wrote:

looks like my other post didn't come thru...I can pop that brass bushing out, turn a new one and clean-up the case around it. That bushing might be standard available from McMaster anyway.

Barry Gwin at San Francisco Scooter Center has the original Piaggio factory tool for replacing those brass seats. He even has the replacement brass.
He told me he has never used it because it has always been cheaper to simply purchase replacement cases.

>>> Thanks SFvsr, I'm thinking replacement cases is the way to go as well. If I come up with cases I may send these ones off to Jerry so he can fix them up, Jerry sounds like he enjoys a challenge.

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Here's the pics where I removed the what appeared to be epoxy as well as maybe a better shot of the bushing off to one side.

I can't tell if there was a crack under there or not. I'm trying to think why else the epoxy would be there. I can weld / repair whatever they did for the brake bracket as well. Question is why the epoxy, JB weld a crack? Try heating it up with some oil in it on the cup side. With enough heat, the crack will open, the oil will migrate thru by capillary action then cook and leave a nice little fault line.

Also, is that a plug on the back side of the bushing that can be knocked out? I can get it out the hole side by milling it till thin if not. I can also make another plug if they are expendable.

I was more concerned about the pad side. I don't know the tolerance there but it looked pretty worn. I suspect the only way to fix that would be to build it up with a few layers of weld, then mount it on a rotary table and mill it vertically. That's probably how they did it. I could also CNC mill it but the rotary table would be less risk.

The head didn't look that bad though. It looked like it was leaking but there is a fair amount of metal there. Worst case is to run a bead around it with tig/torch and then mill it flat again. That would take about an hour or so. I don't know how much heads are for that engine and availability. If the spark plug threads are ok, take your grinder and using a wire brush, go all around the inside. Put some dykem on the mating edge and drag it on some 600 wet to see how bad it is. You really should spin it, not drag, no matter how frustrating. Take the head and set it on an inspection plate and put a feeler gauge under the remaining blue to determine how much you need to lap off. Maybe someone can comment on how much you can take off without driving the compression up.

I have to watch what I sign-up for as I have been traveling a lot, 45k miles last month, but you might want to consider sending them to SFvsr. He can look at them, I'll stop over there, and if we (mostly him) think they are salvageable, go from there. I'm speaking for Chris (whom I've been looking forward to working with) but he wouldn't have much to do to them himself. I'll put some effort into them within reason, just for the sake of saving them and learning more about the older engines. I've been thinking about buying a mid 60's project bike and would rather learn on yours !

Your not kidding learning the hardway.So does this mean a 125 bottom end is made to a 150 simply with the top end? My crank is already shot as is the top end has a good score in it.
I really could use some information as to what motor and max size will fit in my chassis ( depending on condition after blasting ) along with what year cases will work with my insides, carb etc.

Really I do appreciate the offer as I really feel your being sincere and mean well, I'm sure SFvsr is busy enough on his own without tackling these cases. I think the plug on the back may have been completely broken away. I have seen some pretty cool stuff that a good aluminum welder can do but I really think this motor has been through some really good fatique and maybe on there last legs.
The head is available if needed at a very reasonable price but your instructions are very good.

What I really need is a lead on some cases and info on what will fit and recommendations, I am more than willing to listen and act.
I see some on ebay but I'm not jumping into anything again without some guidance. Even with cases I'm looking at a crank and top end which although add up in cost they are resonably priced.

I had a very busy day today stripping down the scooter to be blasted and took a few pics as I went, some for my future reference but also for you guys if you spot anything of concern please do let me know so I can follow up on it.

So my overall thoughts of the chassis at least for now until I get it back from blasting is it is indeed vbb from end to end other than the floor. Take note of the first picture where I ground down the side of the tunnel and found where the vbb rear brake once was.

Just wandering is it possible or should I say are the vbb rear brake assembly available that I may get the rear brake back to the vbb type?
-I was so happy to take the glove box off the front, I found where braces were welded to the frame. The signal lights holes will definately be needed to be filled in as well in the rear fenders.

-I didn't see anything unusual with the front sterring fork unless you guys spot something?

Rear end of your chassis has been cut out and replace with something. The one giant weld around the flat tale is obvious; let's see what is under the paint.

They also removed the conduit that protects your brake wires. That seems to be standard for SEA. You would think while they dump the carcasses' off to be welded up, they would install a new conduit there.

Thought there may be something up with the flat fender area, good eye. Not sure where you mean with the conduit, I did remove conduit that was stuck on the rear brake cable from touching the exhaust.
It'll be off to body shop to get sand blasted tomorrow and everything will then be revealed.
Lynn

you're also missing a dust cap underneath the bearings on the fork, and it looks like there is something else under the race, but I can't really tell.

Thanks Len I'll see if I can find a parts break down in my manual, what ever is missing will need to be had.
Ok I looked it up and this is whats suppose to be there.
from looking on scootermurc site it looks like whats on my bike right now is for pseries , ovbviously it works.

You're missing this. It goes underneath the part where the bearings roll against, but AFTER you install the fender, because the front fender usually does not fit over the dust cover. Ask me how i know.

When you are putting it together, it will look like the photo below, only the bearing race will sit all the way down on top of the dust cover.

Thanks Len I\ll ad that to the todo list.

The bike should have the dust cap set into the frame, pinned between the frame and the upper race of the lower fork bearing, NOT like later models where the dust cover is on the fork.

Of course, who in the hell can order parts for a freakshow like this thing? Every component is from a different model.

That bushing isn't even supposed to be there. It is a homemade bushing used to square up the hole.

From now on if anyone asks about buying a Southeast Asia restoration I am just going to refer them to this thread.

Wow. That frame has actual cracks all through the bottom of it. Right where the rear shock goes.

You can only ride this bike if you weigh 80 lbs.

Are you sure on that because I found no cracks only a weld for the flat of the rear fender, but it is getting sandblasted and any issues will be resolved, just the way we roll up here iin the great white north.
Lynn

Good catch, Chris. I wasn't paying attention to the frame....

Ah who would? is me, and " freakshow" , getting a bit personal there aren't you?

Relax, freakshow comment referring to the bike...

Anyhow, glad you came around to how important it is to media blast the frame to see what it really looks like. It seemed like you were pretty reluctant to do it.

LOL I just caught onto what media blast is referring to = sandblasting or glass bead blasting also = walnut shell blast.
Blasting the frame was never an issue, without doing so just doesn't give a solid base for a close up inspection. If you can't see it you can't fix it, and I'm all about making it right.

Lynn, you don't need to blast the frame to see it's had a very hard life. Have you picked up the cracks referred to in pics 4 and 5 of your latest batch? Replace engine. Replace or extensively repair frame. Extensive repairs to cowls and other body work. Most small parts wrong or worn out. Fork?? What's on your list of parts worth keeping? You will be making rusty nail soup.
You are the happy MOFO for the job. (compliment).
Have you considered buying a parts bike, and then giving the parts bike a freshen up instead.
At the end of the day it's your time, your money and your ass on the line.
Good luck.

I don't want a parts bike, any parts that need replacing will be replaced with proper parts I just need to know what it is needing replacing, I'm all about stimulating the economy.
I've been working for 35 yrs and I don't owe anybody anything and I;m all about goodwill to others.
Frame is being blasted and and cracks ( yes I did see the cracks when Chris mentioned them after I blew up the pic) ( I posted all the pics so people with a keen eye could point things out ) or repairs will be done professionally, I'm a wrencher not a welder. Once its blasted and repaired and all holes including signal light holes are filled in it will be primed and painted professionally. The motor will be replaced.
Fork looks good and with pics posted I didn't hear anything from any keen eyes.

When this is all over this will be an awesome thread to point to, when a newbie comes asking "Is this s.e. asian bodge scooter a good deal?" Everybody thinks "theirs will be different."

When everything it totalled up and done, this will have been a great example for future potential buyers. Hopefully your troubles will be an MV public service announcement, Lynn.

I always like to reference this site for viet restos.
http://www.thevespawizard.com.au/the_black_vbb.htm
http://www.thevespawizard.com.au/Asian%20Imports.htm

I believe you can use the present tense here, Len. Like an onion, and we see them regularly, even overlapping.

Different resolution for different folks. I like to avoid taking sides, generalizing has its pros AND cons. Refusing to work on these makes sense for most shops, considering ALL the issues. It's not so much a condemnation of a specific bike from a few fuzzy pics, it's more a sound business policy based on experience.

Hey Chris,can you post a pic of what is suppose to be in that hole for the cush drive, I'd like to know myself?

Here ya go...

Seriously? What is that a roller bearing in there?

dude that engine is trashed... sell it for scrap and buy an LML engine.

but before you do that, see what's up with the frame. from your photos, it looks like they welded up the correct holes to install weird P-series stuff.

what part of Canada are you from? I'm in Seattle... so if you're west coast I'd be glad to offer some assistance.

There isn't supposed to be anything in there.

Ontario on michigan border

Hey Lynnb
If and when, you get the scoot body blasted (generic word), you might have the guy use soda to remove the paint first. Afterwards, he can switch to glass beads for the specific rusted areas. What you have to be careful of with blasting is excessive heat build up on the flat panel areas. Soda doesn't build the heat as fast as other media.
Here's a pic of my "blasted" body. My major rust hurdle was replacing the floor, as the ravages of time took it's toll on the floor and where it attaches to the swing-arm area.
Good Luck with your project!

Why not acid dip the body? A friend used to do that when restoring cars as it was the best way and did not remove any metal and it got into the tight cracks where blasting of any type does not get to.

If that frame goes in acid I wonder how much will come out?